What alternatives are there to the Northern Link Tunnel?

[#Metro]

Given the survey results so far, this might be the first RailBOT poll that is unanimous.
---> http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=4438.msg34286#new

How would you improve PT service in the Western suburbs as an alternative to the $1.8 billion Northern Link Tunnel?
Dot point if you can!

     

[somebody]

How would you improve PT service in the Western suburbs as an alternative to the $1.8 billion Northern Link Tunnel?

Umm, how about improved train frequency?  Once that is sorted out, you can think more about bus/rail interchange.  Although a 444 routing via the Western Freeway and Milton Rd, combined with a Moggill-UQ BUZ.

[#Metro]

There are multiple possibilities, not sure which one is better but here's a start:

* Upgrade the Ipswich line (and ideally all other lines) to metro service standard.
It's not a metro, but the trains are there, the railway and stations are there, the only missing ingredient is the frequency- which isn't there and should be.

Some relevant points from Jarrett Walker's human transit blog article "Australia: Pitfalls of Metro envy"

It's been easy to jump from those desires to the notion that since Australia doesn't have metros now, it needs to build them.  But Bowen's work in Melbourne (and our own work on the Sydney Morning Herald inquiry) are pointing out that our cities already have a network of grade-separated rail lines covering the areas of European density, and that the quickest way to get a "metro" level of mobility is simply to run these lines much more frequently.

There are some barriers to this (notably the two-man crews still required on Sydney trains) but most would be easy to address if there were a conceptual shift.  The conceptual problem is that as long as our rail bureaucracies understand the peak commute to be their primary product, they will continue to care about running time more than they do about frequency.

It's been easy to jump from those desires to the notion that since Australia doesn't have metros now, it needs to build them.

This is the "let's copy Paris" approach to planning IMHO.

We have the tracks, the wires, the stations, and the trains.  All we need is a new commitment to all-day service.  It's not cheap, but compared to an all-new all-underground automated metro, it's a bargain.

Would it be possible to run trains every 12 minutes off peak on that line?

[somebody]

We also need improved express stopping patterns.  CityRail has some room for improvement too, but it is 70% of the way there.  Brisbane is 5% of the way there.

Don't see what stops us from having 8tph all stops to Corinda + 4tph express to Ipswich.

[mufreight]

When Richlands comes on line how about 4tph all stations as far as Darra with 2thp express to Corinda and then all stations to Ipswich this would give 4thp through to Ipswich but only 2thp to Richlands

[somebody]

When Richlands comes on line how about 4tph all stations as far as Darra with 2thp express to Corinda and then all stations to Ipswich this would give 4thp through to Ipswich but only 2thp to Richlands

I would much prefer the consistency of 4tph all stops to Richlands + 4tph limited stops to Ipswich.

[mufreight]

When Richlands comes on line how about 4tph all stations as far as Darra with 2thp express to Corinda and then all stations to Ipswich this would give 4thp through to Ipswich but only 2thp to Richlands

I would much prefer the consistency of 4tph all stops to Richlands + 4tph limited stops to Ipswich.

Well you might but there are many who would find such a stopping pattern as you suggest highly inconvenient and a further deterrent to public transport use.

[somebody]

Well you might but there are many who would find such a stopping pattern as you suggest highly inconvenient and a further deterrent to public transport use.

You can't expect a single seat journey to everywhere.  I don't think there are very many Ipswich-Sherwood trips for example.

[somebody]

With all due respect, I must say I am dismayed by the reluctance of Brisbanites to accept positive change.  A couple of years back when the ECRL (Epping-Chatswood Rail Link) in Sydney was integrated into the timetable, the Upper Northern line received no improvement in frequency, trips to Central & Redfern became slower and trips to Town Hall and Wynyard in peak also became slower.  The only real benefits for the upper northern line was that trips to the lower north shore became faster, trips to Macquarie Park became far easier and a 4tph service occurred at really inconsistent timings on weekdays.  It also resulted in Eastwood and West Ryde losing their limited stop peak trains and in general a poorer service quality only compensated for by 4tph for a few extra hours a weekday.  Moreover, trips to employment destinations such as Rhodes from the upper Northern Line now requires an interchange, and to get to Parramatta now requires two interchanges unless you go around via the CBD which cuts it down to one.  This change is really an overall positive for the network though as it allows for more trains (4pth) from the Western Line into the CBD and balances the network a bit better.  It could be argued that the line wasn't worth the price tag for the benefit, but that's an argument for another day.

If this had been done in Brisbane, I'd think there would be people staking out parliament with Twisted Sister's "we're not going to take it" playing at loud volume all day.  Or something like that.

[colinw]

Well you might but there are many who would find such a stopping pattern as you suggest highly inconvenient and a further deterrent to public transport use.

You can't expect a single seat journey to everywhere.  I don't think there are very many Ipswich-Sherwood trips for example.

Single seat journey and an extreme aversion to changing services is one of the worst ills that afflicts Brisbane public transport.  It is responsible for a huge amount of service duplication, and the poor frequency of many bus services once they fan out into the suburbs.  It also, I suspect, is a factor in the "planning" (if you can call it that) which leads to our over reliance on all stations rail services.

[somebody]

   All I can add to that is Thank You!