Survey working out: Route 411

[#Metro]

South Bank Ramps
http://www.nearmap.com/?ll=-27.482374,153.023189&z=20&t=k&nmd=20100720

Toowong
http://www.nearmap.com/?ll=-27.486126,152.992891&z=20&t=k&nmd=20100720

Hmm. Looks a bit tight though, and not something that can be done quickly, if at all...

[#Metro]

Did the trial. Takes 20 minutes from Toowong to Adelaide Street on 411 direct.
So basically there is no real difference in overall to the combined trip travel times with or without an interchange to rail, at least at peak hour.
(There may be a difference in reliability however, and time savings from higher frequency & cut time at the bus stop have not been taken into account, but this would only be about 5 min in peak in favour of rail).

There was quite a bit of traffic on Coronation Drive- starts at about The Regatta, all the way up to the Go-Between Bridge.
The buses are all getting stuck in it.

Feeding to BUZ 412 might be the more workable idea.

[STB]

Or a simple bus lane which would increase the average speed and hence a shorter travel time, while maintaining the same service levels, service convienence for those passengers and spreading the passenger load rather than just dumping all those route 411 passengers onto the 412 and/or the train.

No offence, but to have feeders this close to the city is absoultely flawed thinking and not improving the service by any means.

[#Metro]

Or a simple bus lane which would increase the average speed and hence a shorter travel time, while maintaining the same service levels, service convienence for those passengers and spreading the passenger load rather than just dumping all those route 411 passengers onto the 412 and/or the train.

No offence, but to have feeders this close to the city is absoultely flawed thinking and not improving the service by any means.

No harm in exploring ideas!   Fair point.

A bus lane would improve the average speed- but how much time would that actually save? And it doesn't do anything for the frequency of the service, which remains unchanged. Especially on weekends and Sundays when the service frequency is just IMHO abysmal. Some weekends when I used to live just off Hawken, I did walk half way across St Lucia to the Guyatt Pk ferry or the 412 because 411 frequency was terrible.

Why should a bus so close to the city and a major activity centre- Toowong, have such terrible service levels on the weekend?
Especially when it serves a Uni which is open on the weekend, at the other end?

I actually think it might be better idea (OK, maybe not as close as Toowong rail to rail due to the interchange, but maybe to the BUZ) to consolidate passenger demand rather than spread it over many routes. That way larger vehicles can be used with fewer drivers which would be more efficient cost-wise and allow more frequent service on the feeder portions as well. There is a diagram of this concept on p46 of the Connecting SEQ 2031 plan.

[somebody]

No offence, but to have feeders this close to the city is absoultely flawed thinking and not improving the service by any means.

Perhaps a tad harsh.  I would suggest that if there was an 8 minute frequency train service, it wouldn't look so bad. 15 minute to Springfield & Ipswich would make this happen.

[Golliwog]

Something I've been thinking is that the 412 is quite short compared to all the other BUZ routes. What would the feasibility of extending this route to run from UQ back to the St Lucia shops (where it currently terminates) but instead continue on and follow the route of the 428? Or alternatively running via the Indooroopilly State schools?

[somebody]

Something I've been thinking is that the 412 is quite short compared to all the other BUZ routes. What would the feasibility of extending this route to run from UQ back to the St Lucia shops (where it currently terminates) but instead continue on and follow the route of the 428? Or alternatively running via the Indooroopilly State schools?

I've spotted that too.  I would definitely suppose extending the N412 to cover the 411 service.

Combining it with the 428 is an interesting idea, but then you've now made the route quite long and prone to delays.  Not only does it have to contend with Coro, but also the PM peak queues for the Walter Taylor Bridge.

I favour extending to the Valley at the other end, though.  Adelaide St stop 16 is just not good enough.

[#Metro]

Do you mean, connect it to the rail station at Indooroopilly?

[#Metro]

I've spotted that too.  I would definitely suppose extending the N412 to cover the 411 service.

Godsend!!!

[ButFli]

411 also has a stop that is in a different location to the CBD. IMHO this isn't helpful...

The 411 is not a route that is designed to move people between the CBD and the UQ. Once upon a time it may have served that purpose but with the introduction of the 109 it doesn't anymore. The 411 serves the dual purpose of taking people from UQ to Southern St Lucia and Coro Drive and taking residents of Southern St Lucia to Toowong and the CBD (and back again in both cases). You can't view the 411 as a CBD-UQ link. The 411 stop in the CBD is deliberately separated from the 412/109 to discourage passengers for UQ boarding in the CBD. If all the buses stopped in the same place you'd get a 411 full of UQ students with St Lucia residents waiting up to an hour for the next 411 while four 412/109s leave half empty in that time.

If you're trying to modify the 411 to benefit UQ-CBD trips you are missing the point entirely. If you want to do something worthwhile you can take half the 412s and route them via Hawken Drive. Now there's something we can all agree on.

[#Metro]

The 411 is not a route that is designed to move people between the CBD and the UQ. Once upon a time it may have served that purpose but with the introduction of the 109 it doesn't anymore. The 411 serves the dual purpose of taking people from UQ to Southern St Lucia and Coro Drive and taking residents of Southern St Lucia to Toowong and the CBD (and back again in both cases). You can't view the 411 as a CBD-UQ link.

Still, many people to UQ and from it catch it. Point taken. 

The 411 stop in the CBD is deliberately separated from the 412/109 to discourage passengers for UQ boarding in the CBD. If all the buses stopped in the same place you'd get a 411 full of UQ students with St Lucia residents waiting up to an hour for the next 411 while four 412/109s leave half empty in that time.

Some people do want to go to Toowong or stops in-between. The 411 stops at these stops whereas the 412 BUZ does not and the 109 definitely does not. The 411 is slower, the BUZ 412 more frequent and the 109 also frequent, it wasn't an issue when they were co-located. This is a minor, but annoying issue IMHO. And 411 really should have better frequency if it is that close to Toowong and the CBD.

If you're trying to modify the 411 to benefit UQ-CBD trips you are missing the point entirely. If you want to do something worthwhile you can take half the 412s and route them via Hawken Drive. Now there's something we can all agree on.

It sounds like you are more in agreement with the feeder idea, but perhaps I'm mis-interpreting this comment?

[somebody]

The 411 stop in the CBD is deliberately separated from the 412/109 to discourage passengers for UQ boarding in the CBD. If all the buses stopped in the same place you'd get a 411 full of UQ students with St Lucia residents waiting up to an hour for the next 411 while four 412/109s leave half empty in that time.

While I agree with your other points, I cannot agree with this point.  Anyone using a 411 to get to UQ should learn real quick that it isn't a smart option.  The 412/402/109 provide a far better service so why not use those routes, especially now that the 412 is a BUZ and the 402 has been upgraded too.  Perhaps a few months ago the 411 option didn't look too bad as you could wait 30 minutes for a 412 on a weekend, but it looks pretty awful now.

[#Metro]

To be honest, I only wanted to do a survey to see the trade-off on frequency vs directness at a location close to the CBD.
I intend to do another survey, a bit further out.

I am surprised by the amount of discussion actually!  But that's a good thing, its given a lot of insights. 

[Golliwog]

What precisely is wrong with Adeliade street stop 16?

And how exactly is it getting stuck in traffic for Waltor Taylor? The 428 doesn't really run on any roads that directly approach it, and when it does it turns off before the lights. That said, I don't really know much about it as I've never really been around there in peak. Also, I was just kind of suggesting it as a route that is popular with UQ students as Indooroopilly is the closest major shopping center and also a major transport hub for the western suburbs.

You can timetable in the wait in traffic (I'm assuming the 428/429/432 do) and once theres a high frequency route running through there perhaps it will drive a change in peoples transport habits. Even if you had the 412 terminate at Indro and shortened the 428 (429 would be abolished as its just an express version) to feed to Indro I think that would be an improvement.

[ButFli]

The 411 stop in the CBD is deliberately separated from the 412/109 to discourage passengers for UQ boarding in the CBD. If all the buses stopped in the same place you'd get a 411 full of UQ students with St Lucia residents waiting up to an hour for the next 411 while four 412/109s leave half empty in that time.

Some people do want to go to Toowong or stops in-between. The 411 stops at these stops whereas the 412 BUZ does not and the 109 definitely does not. The 411 is slower, the BUZ 412 more frequent and the 109 also frequent, it wasn't an issue when they were co-located. This is a minor, but annoying issue IMHO. And 411 really should have better frequency if it is that close to Toowong and the CBD.

If you agree that 411 and 412/109 serve different passengers then why is it an issue if they don't stop at the same CBD stop? You go to one stop if you want to go to UQ and the other stop if you want to go to a 411 destination. Seems simple to me.

And I'm sorry but it was very much an issue when 411/412 were co-located. Services were timetabled so that a 411 would show up, then a 412 a few minutes later then a 407 a few minutes after that. You had an all-stops suburban service being filled with end-to-end passengers, followed by a limited stops direct service that would half fill then a direct express that was vitually empty. All the while the St Lucia residents who needed the 411 had to wait because they were kicked off by passengers who would have been served better by the 412 or 407.

The 411 stop in the CBD is deliberately separated from the 412/109 to discourage passengers for UQ boarding in the CBD. If all the buses stopped in the same place you'd get a 411 full of UQ students with St Lucia residents waiting up to an hour for the next 411 while four 412/109s leave half empty in that time.

While I agree with your other points, I cannot agree with this point.  Anyone using a 411 to get to UQ should learn real quick that it isn't a smart option.  The 412/402/109 provide a far better service so why not use those routes, especially now that the 412 is a BUZ and the 402 has been upgraded too.  Perhaps a few months ago the 411 option didn't look too bad as you could wait 30 minutes for a 412 on a weekend, but it looks pretty awful now.

Passengers will catch the first bus they see that will take them to their destination. And the difference between a 411 and 412 CBD-UQ is 7 minutes. If you're standing at the stop you've got no idea how far away the next 412 is. If you catch the 411 the worst possibility is a 412 arrives as your bus is leaving. Watch out, you've just lost 5 minutes. On the other hand, there's every possibility the next 412 is 20 minutes away and will reject you because it gets full. By waiting for the supposed better-option you've wasted 15+ minutes for the chance of saving 5.

[somebody]

What precisely is wrong with Adeliade street stop 16?

It only really serves one part of the CBD.  Well, that's the main problem.  Also, it could be better used as a layover area for Toombul routes rather than having them congesting the Cultural Centre.

And how exactly is it getting stuck in traffic for Waltor Taylor? The 428 doesn't really run on any roads that directly approach it, and when it does it turns off before the lights. That said, I don't really know much about it as I've never really been around there in peak.

I have been there in the PM peak numerous times, I can tell you that traffic queues up along Lambert Rd past Harts Rd, and also along Swann Rd heading to Moggill Rd.  Just as approaching Walter Taylor from the south is awful in the AM peak, approaching it from the east is awful in the PM.  I think it is predomenantly UQ people.

If you agree that 411 and 412/109 serve different passengers then why is it an issue if they don't stop at the same CBD stop? You go to one stop if you want to go to UQ and the other stop if you want to go to a 411 destination. Seems simple to me.

They serve some of the same passengers and some different passengers.

And I'm sorry but it was very much an issue when 411/412 were co-located. Services were timetabled so that a 411 would show up, then a 412 a few minutes later then a 407 a few minutes after that. You had an all-stops suburban service being filled with end-to-end passengers, followed by a limited stops direct service that would half fill then a direct express that was vitually empty. All the while the St Lucia residents who needed the 411 had to wait because they were kicked off by passengers who would have been served better by the 412 or 407.
...
Passengers will catch the first bus they see that will take them to their destination. And the difference between a 411 and 412 CBD-UQ is 7 minutes. If you're standing at the stop you've got no idea how far away the next 412 is. If you catch the 411 the worst possibility is a 412 arrives as your bus is leaving. Watch out, you've just lost 5 minutes. On the other hand, there's every possibility the next 412 is 20 minutes away and will reject you because it gets full. By waiting for the supposed better-option you've wasted 15+ minutes for the chance of saving 5.

I understand your frustration here, but shouldn't increasing the frequency on the 412 and the 402 solve, or at least greatly reduce this problem?

I'm not completely sure where the 407 went?  CBD-UQ non stop?

[Golliwog]

As I recall it they removed the 407 when they bought in the 109? I don't know when I started my degree was right when the 109 started so I don't really know much about it.

I still think its a fine stop location. Its right near the mall, only 1 block to KGS where you can catch a bus to most places, as for trains the walk to Central really isn't that far and those on the 109 can interchange at Park Rd, or South Bank, and the 412 can change at Toowong if they aren't up for the walk. If the 412/109 are to be moved to a different stop where would you move them to and what would you do with the buses that currently stop there?

[somebody]

I still think its a fine stop location. Its right near the mall, only 1 block to KGS where you can catch a bus to most places, as for trains the walk to Central really isn't that far and those on the 109 can interchange at Park Rd, or South Bank, and the 412 can change at Toowong if they aren't up for the walk. If the 412/109 are to be moved to a different stop where would you move them to and what would you do with the buses that currently stop there?

Ok, you are entitled to your viewpoint.  412 would move to where the 411/416/417/433/445/471 currently stop, 109 should be combined with 66 or some other Northern Busway route (or routes) so KGSBS.

BTW, you wouldn't walk from stop 16 to KGSBS - just change at the Cultural Centre if you want one of those routes.  And if you are coming from the 412 to a train, North Quay stop 106 and Roma St station is best.  Doesn't work in the opposite direction though.

[somebody]

Another problem with Adelaide St stop 16 is that pedestrian access to it isn't very good.  Although better than the North Quay island stop.

EDIT: I would also add that preventing UQ people from crowding the 411 by separating the stops is a pretty lame approach.  How about timetabling the 407 to be before the 411/412 rather than after?  In addition, what about increasing the frequency of all the services.

[Golliwog]

Lame, yes. But also cost effective

I'm just curious but whats wrong with the pedestrian access to stop 16? To me the access to it is the same as most bus stops. Or are you saying something like the traffic light pedestrian phasing?

[#Metro]

(Should penalties are applied to take into account 15 minutes of being stuck in traffic jams on Coro drive?)

I've heard of 'transfer penalties' but what about 'reliability penalties' to account for unexpected congestion on Coronation Drive? I've been reading an Airtrain paper and was surprised to see this:

A number of empirical studies have demonstrated the importance of considering travel time variability when estimating the benefits to travellers of time savings. There is evidence that unexpected delay should be valued significantly different from average travel time valuations – values between 2.5 and 5 times in-vehicle travel time has been used.

Small et al (1999) 'showed that a reduction of one minute of travel time under unexpectedly congested conditions was valued at over 2.5 times the value of one minute of time under normal condition'.

IMHO modelling of these things is a bit contentious... but interesting...

[#Metro]

http://www.airtrain.com.au/pdf/Airtrain_Impacts_Apr06.pdf

The paper is here

[somebody]

Lame, yes. But also cost effective

I'm just curious but whats wrong with the pedestrian access to stop 16? To me the access to it is the same as most bus stops. Or are you saying something like the traffic light pedestrian phasing?

Getting from the Queen St mall to stop 16 requires crossing two roads.  I think every other bus in the CBD can be reached crossing one road only, and in a lot of cases, no roads.  That's in addition to the location.

And proper sequencing of the services would be no less cost effective, except in the sense that making PT annoying reduces the demand which makes it easy to cut services.  So, in the latter sense, I definitely agree with your cost effective argument.

valued at over 2.5 times the value of one minute of time under normal condition'

If you agree with this, then you would definitely go along with TT's bus interchange at Indooroopilly.

[ButFli]

I understand your frustration here, but shouldn't increasing the frequency on the 412 and the 402 solve, or at least greatly reduce this problem?

I'm not completely sure where the 407 went?  CBD-UQ non stop?

Yes the 407 was the CBD-UQ Rocket. Non-stop all the way. It was replaced by the 109 when the Eleanor Schonell Bridge opened and the 412/109 started stopping at their current location. I was using it as a 109 substitute about what would happen if 109/412/411 all used the same city stop. Sure you can avoid the problems if you increase the frequency of each route to the point where no one ever gets left behind it'd be fine, but then why do you need the stops co-located? If the frequency is that high you wouldn't need to catch the 411.

[somebody]

Sure you can avoid the problems if you increase the frequency of each route to the point where no one ever gets left behind it'd be fine, but then why do you need the stops co-located? If the frequency is that high you wouldn't need to catch the 411.

I was referring here to the frequency increase which has already occurred.