Beyond The Proposed Cross River Rail Project...time to dream again....

[SteelPan]

Over the last decade what began as small push, including by many of us here at Backontrack, has steadily grown to the point where, in all probability, Brisbane will over the next decade, at long last, gain an underground rail system (the dream is of course yet to become a reality) ...let your mind again run free...what do you believe to be the next BIG DREAM ITEM on the "rail infrastructure wish list" post say 2020/25? (approx).  Let's not as citizens nor in turn the powers that be, allow ourselves to fall back into the land of rail-nod for another half a century.  What do you dream of for our city rail network in the LONG-TERM? 

[Golliwog]

I can't think of anything on the scale of the CRR, but a couple of smaller things.

• Having all lines as at least dual track
• Having all stations capable of taking a 6 car train(9 if thats what QR is going for)
• Developing Ipswich as its own hub like Central is now
• Developing a light rail system

[#Metro]

I agree!

* All lines dual track
* Dedicated freight bypass and freight corridors
* All stations to take 9 car or 10 car trains
* More inner city connections (Cleveland-Newstead connector, Sunnybank-Browns Plains line, Doomben to Portside (LRT?)
* Kippa ring and Sunshine Coast lines built
* Cleveland line extended to Victoria Point
* Ipswich hub of "spider" web network rail lines rail to be re-vitalised
* A light rail system (light metro?) underground like Cologne, Germany and or a surface light railway to complement or connect
* A mass and cheap source of electricity for the rail networks (electricity is the biggest ongoing costs to operate the system IMHO, cheaper, possibly sustainable power would slash the cost to run it massively). Possibly a hydroelectric dam- would kill the water and power supply problems together.
* Services running so frequently and so popular, that they more or less pay for their own operation (BUZ 199 does this IIRC, Vancouver Sky train operation costs apparently do this too).

[#Metro]

Newstead-Cleveland connector ---> http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=3789.msg26231#msg26231

There are other ideas such as the Trouts Rd line, and the UQ line but I'll leave it to others to debate/recommend it for this thread.

[dwb]

I'm less of a fan of 10 car trains (or even 9) as for most of the time (ie non commuter) the trains aren't full. The major problem is geographic coverage and frequency, not train length.

[WTN]

The extra length may be needed in future during peak times.  You can always stop a 3 or 6 car train at 9 car station, but the reverse is ugly.

Geographic coverage - I'm all for it.  There's lots of areas that don't have trains.  Bring on light and heavy rail to Southport-Coolangatta, Redcliffe and up to Maroochydore.  Modern, higher speed alignments would be nice too.

[dwb]

If the geographic coverage of the network was increased, along with the frequency of service, and a changed internal layout and operational approach (metro except for interurban), then I think the Brisbane network should be able to cope with 6-car length trains!

For instance, even the Victoria Line in London only has 8car trains, made up of 2x4car sets that carry 252 seated passengers and 1196 standing passengers.  Each train is 133.3m long, so shorter than a car SMU.  The line carries 183 million passengers a year which is more than the entire SEQ bus and train network combined.

[Golliwog]

I think what you're forgetting there however is that while yes, London has a population far greater than Brisbane, the area covered by the Tube network and thus the length of each line, is far smaller than that of Brisbane. I know for a fact that in the London peak, the major stations (in particular, interchanges) have a crowd of people waiting on platform that will not all fit on the train. They fit as many as they can in the train, then everyone just waits for the next one in 3 minutes (when I was there, once we were waiting in the crowd/line, I think we got the 3rd or 4th train that came in). The trains are very corwded, but its fine because they aren't going very far. Can you imagine what Brisbanes train commuters would be thinking if everytrain they had to ride in peak was a 4/5 on the Derwan scale?

I agree that with good planning and increases in frequency that 9 car trains most likely be needed, but as has been stated before on this forum, PT currently accounts for less than 20% of journeys. If PT ever takes a decent share of transport in SEQ, IMO, you're going to need the possibility of upgraded train sizes.

[Arnz]

9 car trains might be a "in the far future" option, but would require upgrading platforms which would be quite costly.  

Operating 7-9 cars within the next 2-5 years (which involves extending a limited number of stations "in the near future") won't quite work due to the "Zero Harm" policy, just imagine a 9-car set and having to tell the people at the back 3 cars to get off and move to the front 6 carriages at some station in the middle of the line.

[dwb]

The land area of Greater London is actually ~1600sqkm, whereas Brisbane is about 1300sqkm. Of course Brisbane is only the centre of the pie but all other services ie Ipswich, Caboolture, Gold Coast, Nambour are all interurban.

I think in peak the majority of passengers can and should stand.

[Golliwog]

But to my knowledge, the Tube network doesn't cover all of greater London, just the central parts.

[Jon Bryant]

My thoughts on new/future lines are in the following thread http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=3177.0

[longboi]

Post-CRR I'd like to see the remainder of the system improved to lift the standard of service across the board. This would include:

- Dual track remainder of Shorncliffe and Cleveland lines
- Triple track to Caboolture, Beenleigh & Ippy
- Sunshine Coast line built as dual track to Maroochydore
- North Coast line realigned and dual-tracked to Nambour
- GC line completed to Coolangatta
- Richlands-Springfield completed w/ stations at Ellen Grove and Springfield Lakes
- Close Doomben line and introduce a LR/CityGlider route to the Ascot-Doomben area
- Some sort of level crossing removal program

[Golliwog]

- Some sort of level crossing removal program

Don't they already have that? Although from what I understand it's not a major priority. I know I suggested to the team planning the Keperra to FG upgrade that as park of it, seeing as there would be disruptions to that section of track anyway, that they could look at doing something with the Samford Road crossing. Apparently Samford Road doesn't have enough traffic for them to see it as something necessary at the moment.

- Richlands-Springfield completed w/ stations at Ellen Grove and Springfield Lakes

Why not also get started on the whole loop back to Ipswich. Or at least start at the Ipswich end where theres definately enough people to warrant it.

-Close Doomben line and introduce a LR/CityGlider route to the Ascot-Doomben area

I think that should definatly be looked into.  Plus once you have one section of LR, it would be easier to expand upon.

[frereOP]

But to my knowledge, the Tube network doesn't cover all of greater London, just the central parts.

The tube runs way out into the suburbs.  eg Out to Watford past Wembly in the NW (about Ipswich distance from Brisbane), to Heathrow in the South West (Piccadilly line) etc.  It is concentrated in the inner city where it runs underground, but runs surface outside, often in parallel with the Overground (eg Euston to Watford).  Importantly it is an end-to-end system and doesn't suffer from timetabling issues that occur when trains from all origins going to all destinations use the same physical piece of track.

[Golliwog]

I know it has some lines that go further out. But you were using the Victoria line as an example, which doesn't go far out past the center of London. Anyway, I totally agree though that it is definatly better as all the lines are grade seperated. Most of the time anyway, there are a few places where there is shared track (Hammersmith line with the Circle line extension) but where the lines diverge they provide grade seperation, and usually each line has its own two tracks (eg: Piccadilly and District lines) which allows each line to run independantly of each other.

[longboi]

Don't they already have that? Although from what I understand it's not a major priority. I know I suggested to the team planning the Keperra to FG upgrade that as park of it, seeing as there would be disruptions to that section of track anyway, that they could look at doing something with the Samford Road crossing. Apparently Samford Road doesn't have enough traffic for them to see it as something necessary at the moment.

Sort of, not really. There's a statewide safety improvement program which includes various sorts of enhanced safety features however I'm talking about a specific program for the Brisbane area to actively remove level crossings.

Why not also get started on the whole loop back to Ipswich. Or at least start at the Ipswich end where theres definately enough people to warrant it.

That did crossed my mind and I'm all for it, however I didn't include it in my list because I think it is more of a 2035-2040 project.

[somebody]

I think in peak the majority of passengers can and should stand.

No way!!  I don't want to live in your near seatless transport world.  The capacity isn't actually increased that much.  A 6 car train with no seats would probably allow 1500 people, but a 9 car train would allow the same number of people, and half of them getting a seat.  Your proposal also means that you are likely to have to stand off peak unless you are suggesting that the off peak frequency matches the peak frequency.  Which is also impossible on our current infrastructure.

[WTN]

Don't think about making longer journey passengers stand.  I've stood all the way from Central to Helensvale (in peak hour) and my knees still hurt after an hour of sitting down.  I couldn't walk much for at about 1/2 an hour after that.  So I know how bad it is on a "Bombay Express".

I can stand on shorter journeys but standing for a whole hour is a recipe for commuter rage.