If Brisbane went back to trams, where should they go?

[Golliwog]

Just an idea, but if Brisbane was to put trams back in again, where should they go? Would you put them in their own lanes on the roads, or have them grade seperated? How far out would you put them?

[ButFli]

Down the middle two lanes of four-lane roads.

The first place it should be done is Brunswick St in New Farm. It is crying out for it! 3.4 million passengers a year on the 199 can't be wrong.

[Jon Bryant]

Down the middle two lanes of four-lane roads.

Agree Totally.

[#Metro]

Jonno, I've had a look at Strasbourg trams (your avatar image) on YouTube. They are excellent.
To think BCC was comparing CityGlider to something like a tram or rubber tyres. Just get the real thing!

This following link has suggestions which IMHO are a good start. Add a line for Coronation Drive.
Facebook:Trams for Brisbane

Where possible, LRT should be in their own lanes- i'd prefer a left running lane rather than down the centre of the road (except for coro drive). Some might be underground as a light metro*, but that is a separate thing IMHO.

In narrower streets it may be the only option to share with general traffic. This is what buses do as well, so I don't see a big deal. See Lisbon for example.

*Strasbourg LRT underground station at the central rail station. The rest of the network is above ground, but you get the idea...

[ButFli]

If the tram is going to have its own lane then how is it possible to make this the far-left lane? What about cars turning left? What about about bus stops?

Coro drive has the benefit of no right hand turns for inbound traffic so the usual problems with sharing the centre lanes with cars do not apply so much.

[Golliwog]

I don't see the problem with bus's and tram sharing the left lane if thats where a tram line was to be put. It's been done before, I know some parts of Nottingham have the tram line shared with bus's. As for cars turning left, how is this any different to cars turning left when you have a cycle lane? The bus/tram/cyclist would have right of way.

[#Metro]

I think it would be good to give examples. Left or right lane running can be done.
Local conditions would determine where the track should be laid...

Portland Streetcar/MAX Light rail- many sections run in the left/right lane.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7C2bdL-1s8&feature=related

Of course, no solution is without issues: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kbkxx8tKeIo&feature=related
If there is space/parking on the far left or far right, then a bus bay could also be retained.

Just one potential solution to keep an open mind about...

[#Metro]

Some examples of left and right hand tracks.

Portland in Google Street view

Seattle in Google Street view

Seattle with shared traffic & tracks in the left and right hand lanes.

[Golliwog]

As for where I think they should go, I would propose replacing some or all of the BUZ routes with a tram line. This should therefore free up all the buses that used to run these routes (provided of course when the trams start they have a matching frequency) to either make a new BUZ route, or expand some feeder services. However, I'm not sure how the busway would cope in peak periods if you tried to run both bus's and trams.

[stephenk]

However, I'm not sure how the busway would cope in peak periods if you tried to run both bus's and trams.

The SE Busway wouldn't cope with running both buses and trams at existing or higher passenger capacity. This has been discussed extensively recently on this forum. Any new LRT alignment needs to be entirely separated from the SE Busway and QSBS.

[mufreight]

Trams/light rail would have more capacity and being fully guided would be quieter and faster, intergrating their operation with buses definately would pose problems, not because of the Trams/LRV's but because of the human element of bus operation and the diferent operational charactistics BUT it has been done, the stops would need some major redesign to allow segregation of services much the same as rail stations with multiple platforms.

[Golliwog]

I think that yes the stations would be one point, but as well would be intersections. In particular, the hell hole that is between the Cultural Center station and South Bank station. But if that was totally grade seperated from cars as has been suggsted before then it would be fine. But other intersections may still pose problems, eg: where buses exit the busway just before mater hill I/B

[somebody]

eg: where buses exit the busway just before mater hill I/B

That one's only a problem for Annerley Rd services such as the 105/107/108.  Now that the 109 is using the busway, there aren't too many other buses which cause those particular lights to go red.  The Woolloongabba intersection is far worse, and the Boggo Rd busway one isn't minor either.

[Golliwog]

I meant more with all the buses in the morning peak that queue back through the intersection that are trying to get up onto the riverside expressway. unless they were given a dedicated left turn lane, these would hold up trams just like the currently hold up bus services that are remaining on the busway.

[somebody]

I meant more with all the buses in the morning peak that queue back through the intersection that are trying to get up onto the riverside expressway. unless they were given a dedicated left turn lane, these would hold up trams just like the currently hold up bus services that are remaining on the busway.

Ahh, Ok.

There's quite an adequate queuing section for those buses though.  Lengthenning it is not the answer.  That really just adds weight to my argument that bus lanes are required on the Captain Cook Bridge.

[#Metro]

I can just hear all the motorists cry "funnel".
But they have options:

1. Catch a bus
2. Pay toll
3. Use story bridge, riverside express, william jolly bridge or victoria bridges
4. catch a train

A bus lane would increase the capacity of the Riverside Expressway.
Elizabeth St is handles almost as many buses as Cultural Centre in peak hour and has none of the facilities.

[somebody]

Let them bleat.

The fact is that it has always been needed.  How can they say otherwise?

BTW, Didn't we count that Elizabeth St was busier than the CC a week or two ago?

[#Metro]

I think we did. I'm too lazy to find the exact details right now...
Its not just Riverside Expressway, but inner city roads (Elizabeth St, George St) too that need to be declared Bus Lanes.

[Golliwog]

I meant more with all the buses in the morning peak that queue back through the intersection that are trying to get up onto the riverside expressway. unless they were given a dedicated left turn lane, these would hold up trams just like the currently hold up bus services that are remaining on the busway.

Ahh, Ok.

There's quite an adequate queuing section for those buses though.  Lengthenning it is not the answer.  That really just adds weight to my argument that bus lanes are required on the Captain Cook Bridge.

I don't know how it is now, but I remember once they got through the traffic lights onto Stanley street they were fine. But when there was a red light there, the buses did block the busway. What I meant I thought should happen is at the turn off on the busway, they should get a seperate lane so that if they have to wait for the lights to change, they are at least not blocking other buses that want to go through to Mater Hill, etc.

[somebody]

I don't believe there are any lights there after the busway turn off, which one would presume is usually green for left turns.

[#Metro]

Just thinking- here are the specifications for Seattle's Link Light Rail system.
http://www.soundtransit.org/x4306.xml

There are 200 passengers per LRT vehicle.
Up to 4 vehicles can be coupled together.

[mufreight]

Underground

[Golliwog]

I don't believe there are any lights there after the busway turn off, which one would presume is usually green for left turns.

Where it leaves the busway and goes beside Allen Street and has a set of traffic lights coming onto Stanley Street before the Stanley street onramp onto the riverside expressway. There is definately a set of traffic lights there.

[Otto]

Yes, 2 sets of lights.. 1st set on busway left to Allen.. 2nd set Allen left to Stanley.. Left turn to Stanley is usually the cause of any holdups.. Also if there are cars banked up entering the freeway, this can hold up buses as they don't have enough room to do the left turn till the cars clear..

[somebody]

Ahh, yes.  I see it now.

Perhaps a "keep clear" zone to allow buses into the bus lane when there's a queue of cars.

[Golliwog]

Well as well as the BUZ routes, I would suggest a line all the way from the city to where the 385 leaves Waterworks road. Also, a connection from Waterworks road, along Stewart Road and Wardell Street at least to the Enogerra train station, with the possibility of extending along either South Pine then Old Northern Roads OR the Trouts road corridor. Or both.

[somebody]

Also, a connection from Waterworks road, along Stewart Road and Wardell Street at least to the Enogerra train station,

I would prefer Kelvin Grove Rd to the above suggestion.  Only the 350 & 352 would use such a bus/transit lane, so it's actually quite hard to justify.

[Golliwog]

What about justifying it by improving the links between The Gap/Ashgrove area and the Ferny Grove to Enogerra area. The only place after Wardell where a road goes between the two is Settlement Rd at Keperra which is serviced by the 362, with a wonderful frequency of roughly 1 per hour. Plus, given the number of cars that use this route, surely we should be trying to convince some of those to give up their private vehicles and use PT?