Brisbane Metro

[#Metro]

For those whom might be interested... What a Light Metro might look like...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g29WKZgIc5E&feature=related

I'm surprised at how well it handles curves and gradients...

5 trains within 15 minutes that's one every 180 seconds
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UwShHkxFDvE&feature=related

Trip through tunnels/bridges. Crossing the Brisbane river could be done either on bridge or under the river- the service seems to be able to handle gradients well.

[stephenk]

5 trains within 15 minutes that's one every 180 seconds
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UwShHkxFDvE&feature=related

A 200 passenger LRT vehicle every 180secs/20tph. Highly unimpressive.
QR Citytrain can carry nearly x4 the number of passengers/hour across the Merivale Bridge.
The SE Busway can carry more than x2 the number of passengers/hour at Cultural Centre.

If you want to see something more impressive, watch this (and it's all in one take):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tUtor-DtlYw&feature=related

[#Metro]

Nice video. But it is a metro!
And you can couple LRT vehicles together to form trains.

I'm for the metro idea, I'm just exploring the possibility of using a Light Metro to keep costs down and perhaps have it sooner rather than later. Capacity can be expanded by coupling units into LRT-trains. The light metro precedent would be the Manila System (which I think you have some acquaintance with) where 4 car LRT-trains (26.5m) long has a capacity of 1350 passengers per vehicle.

at a 2 minute headway (interval) this would be:
1350 * 30 = 40, 500 pax/hour/direction more than enough for Brisbane (or Bogota!)
Better handling of gradients and curves could also mean that to cross the Brisbane River, a portal & bridge structure could be used. This also 3x the capacity of the SE Busway demand in 2026 (only demonstrating capacity, conversion to LRT of the SE busway may not be ideal under certain circumstances e.g. jumping off into the suburbs). Self-containment of the LRT would mean that bottlenecks arising at either end in heavy rail would not happen.

To do that with rail @ 5min headway:
800 * 12 = 9 600 pax/hour/direction

Even if we are generous and double the capacity of the train or run it at 2x the frequency we get 19, 200 pax/hr direction

Please, I am not advocating the Metro as a substitute for the ICRCS.
They are separate, different passenger markets and different purposes!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manila_Light_Rail_Transit_System

[stephenk]

Nice video. But it is a metro!
And you can couple LRT vehicles together to form trains.

I'm for the metro idea, I'm just exploring the possibility of using a Light Metro to keep costs down and perhaps have it sooner rather than later. Capacity can be expanded by coupling units into LRT-trains. The light metro precedent would be the Manila System (which I think you have some acquaintance with) where 4 car LRT-trains (26.5m) long has a capacity of 1350 passengers per vehicle.

at a 2 minute headway (interval) this would be:
1350 * 30 = 40, 500 pax/hour/direction more than enough for Brisbane (or Bogota!)
Better handling of gradients and curves could also mean that to cross the Brisbane River, a portal & bridge structure could be used. This also 3x the capacity of the SE Busway demand in 2026 (only demonstrating capacity, conversion to LRT of the SE busway may not be ideal under certain circumstances e.g. jumping off into the suburbs). Self-containment of the LRT would mean that bottlenecks arising at either end in heavy rail would not happen.

To do that with rail @ 5min headway:
800 * 12 = 9 600 pax/hour/direction

Even if we are generous and double the capacity of the train or run it at 2x the frequency we get 19, 200 pax/hr direction

Please, I am not advocating the Metro as a substitute for the ICRCS.
They are separate, different passenger markets and different purposes!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manila_Light_Rail_Transit_System

Just a sec Tramtrain, your calculations have 1350 passengers on a 106m long light metro vehicle, and 800 passengers on a 144m long suburban train. I think somewhere you are not comparing using similar passenger loadings/m2. A more realistic crush loading figure in a western country for a 26.5m LRT vehicle is around 250 passengers, which would be 1000 passengers on a 4-unit light metro train.

Also why have you given 30tph towards the light metro, and only 12tph for the suburban train (when the latter already runs at 19tph, and could run at 23-25tph)?

You are comparing apples with oranges, but with a big bite already taken out of the apple.

[mufreight]

Methinks the apple not only has a big bite out of it but someone has found half the worm and finds the taste somewhat unpalatable

[verbatim9]

Nice Light rail system.

[#Metro]

Also why have you given 30tph towards the light metro, and only 12tph for the suburban train (when the latter already runs at 19tph, and could run at 23-25tph)?

LRT: 2 min headway.

From here:


Where do trains run at 19 tph on a single track in Brisbane? Merivale Bridge? How can re run trains at 23-25 tph on single track when we have problems even putting on a single extra service per hour counter-peak on the Beenleigh line?

[somebody]

Where do trains run at 19 tph on a single track in Brisbane? Merivale Bridge? How can re run trains at 23-25 tph on single track when we have problems even putting on a single extra service per hour counter-peak on the Beenleigh line?

Yes, Merivale bridge.

Express services. look here: http://jp.translink.com.au/TransLinkExactEnquiry.asp?ToLoc=Beenleigh%7E%7E%3BBeenleigh%3BBeenleigh%7E%7ESUBURB%7E%7EONS&FromLoc=South+Bank%7E%7E%3BSouth+Bank%3B%5B502207%3A6960539%5D%7E%7EPOINT%7E%7EONS&Vehicle=Train&Advanced=true&WalkSpeed=67&WalkDistance=1000&Priority=504;-1&IsAfter=A&JourneyTimeHours=6&JourneyTimeMinutes=30&JourneyTimeAmPm=AM&Date=15%2F2%2F2010&FromRailStation=&FromLandmarkType=&ToRailStation=&ToLandmarkType=&PageFrom=&UseTranslink=true

You can easily see that the Coasties leave South Bank only 7 minutes behind the Beenleigh trans, but at Beenleigh they are only 5 minutes behind the previous Beenleigh train.  With 3 minute signalling headway, that's a margin of only 6 minutes.

Please tell me that you understand now!

A short working perhaps via Tennyson would probably be doable fairly easily, but you can't go all the way to Beenleigh serving all stops without slowing down the Coastie significantly.

[#Metro]

You can easily see that the Coasties leave South Bank only 7 minutes behind the Beenleigh trans, but at Beenleigh they are only 5 minutes behind the previous Beenleigh train.  With 3 minute signalling headway, that's a margin of only 6 minutes.

Please tell me that you understand now!

A short working perhaps via Tennyson would probably be doable fairly easily, but you can't go all the way to Beenleigh serving all stops without slowing down the Coastie significantly.

Point taken

My point was that I just don't trust the QR Network because it is not self-contained, is prone to crossing conflicts, freight issues (freight load will rise 50% IIRC) etc and the like. Start afresh...

[stephenk]

My point was that I just don't trust the QR Network because it is not self-contained, is prone to crossing conflicts, freight issues (freight load will rise 50% IIRC) etc and the like. Start afresh...

So rather than fixing the problem, you would give up on something that is required, and build something that isn't yet required?

Never say that at a job interview!

[#Metro]

So rather than fixing the problem

I'm for the Metro.
It just isn't as fussy or problem-prone as a HR solution. If built as a light metro, it could handle gradients and curves better which means that it might be able to cross the Brisbane river in a portal & bridge configuration. If done in a light Metro, it might be cheaper as well...
Its capacity is adequate for the task (light or standard metro) and it suits the short-mass haul commuter or traveler quite well.

http://www.transport.qld.gov.au/Home/Projects_and_initiatives/Projects/Brisbane+inner+city+metro

Over the next 25 years, the population in the inner five kilometre ring surrounding Brisbane's CBD will grow by about 50 per cent, or an extra 90 000 residents. At the same time, the number of workers needing to enter the city each day will double from 200 000 to 400 000.

The Queensland Government has released a proposal for an underground metro system, linking Toowong, West End, the City, Newstead and Bowen Hills; with possible extensions to Bulimba and Hamilton North Shore. The plans include an international-standard, underground metro rail system — similar to the London Tube and the Paris Metro.

The proposal to build underground rail under Brisbane city over the next two decades would help south east Queensland cope with unprecedented inner-city population growth.

The first step is delivery of the Cross River Rail project, which will open up the bottleneck restricting train services in the inner city through Central and Roma Street stations. Cross River Rail includes a new rail line, a new river crossing and new inner city rail stations.

The next step after Cross River Rail would be the metro project, which can bring in high capacity and high frequency services.

[#Metro]

So rather than fixing the problem, you would give up on something that is required, and build something that isn't yet required?

Well at least when SCADA decides to randomly shut down for a while etc the commuters will have an alternative to catch...

[somebody]

So rather than fixing the problem, you would give up on something that is required, and build something that isn't yet required?

Never say that at a job interview!

I think I want to work in your industry.  In IT, people who say such things seem to be promoted rather than sacked.

[stephenk]

So rather than fixing the problem, you would give up on something that is required, and build something that isn't yet required?

Well at least when SCADA decides to randomly shut down for a while etc the commuters will have an alternative to catch...

Sorry, that would be a pathetic excuse to spend billions on a new line. How about paying for, and maintaining a SCADA so that it works? Have redundancy in your less expensive SCADA, not redundancy in expensive rail lines!

[Markus]

I say put Metros on hold, till the crosss BNE river is commissioned. I see playing with Metro routes , notably without potential usage statistics playing into the hands of the road lovers. Our projects need to be very cost efficient or we may create white elephants with no other rail projects for quite some time. Seriously. !