30 minutes?

[#Metro]

Screen line for 30 minutes
Rough guide only.

2 tier timetables and 15 min frequency. We will be into the 1990s!

1. Ipswich line
30 minute line is at Oxley or Darra
Ipswich/ Rosewood Express all day (stops at Toowong & Indooroopilly)
Richlands all stations

2. Ferny Grove Line-
all stations on the FG line are roughly within the 30 minute boundary. No expresses.

3. Doomben Line-
all stations on the Doomben line are within the 30 minute boundary. No expresses. (No maglev).

4. Caboolture
30 minute line is at Petrie Station
Kippa-Ring express from Bowen Hills to Petrie (stops at Northgate).
Caboolture all stations
Sunshine Coast express from Bowen Hills to Petrie (stops at Northgate)

5. Shorncliffe
all stations on the Shorncliffe line are within the 30 minute boundary. No expresses.

Airport
Already express.

Beenleigh
Roughly within 30 minute boundary. No changes.

Cleveland Line
30 minute line is between Murrarie and Hemmant.
Express from Buranda to Hemmant (stops at Cannon Hill TOD, shopping centre)

Suggestions and refinements welcome..

[#Metro]

Network Map

[Arnz]

Sunshine Coast express from Bowen Hills to Petrie (stops at Northgate)

Sunshine Coast trains already run express from Bowen Hills to Caboolture stopping at Northgate and Petrie, why add more stops (and time) to a express service? 

The current stopping pattern is fine as is.

[stephenk]

Screen line for 30 minutes
Rough guide only.

2 tier timetables and 15 min frequency. We will be into the 1990s!

1. Ipswich line
30 minute line is at Oxley or Darra
Ipswich/ Rosewood Express all day (stops at Toowong & Indooroopilly)
Richlands all stations

2. Ferny Grove Line-
all stations on the FG line are roughly within the 30 minute boundary. No expresses.

3. Doomben Line-
all stations on the Doomben line are within the 30 minute boundary. No expresses. (No maglev).

4. Caboolture
30 minute line is at Petrie Station
Kippa-Ring express from Bowen Hills to Petrie (stops at Northgate).
Caboolture all stations
Sunshine Coast express from Bowen Hills to Petrie (stops at Northgate)

5. Shorncliffe
all stations on the Shorncliffe line are within the 30 minute boundary. No expresses.

Airport
Already express.

Beenleigh
Roughly within 30 minute boundary. No changes.

Cleveland Line
30 minute line is between Murrarie and Hemmant.
Express from Buranda to Hemmant (stops at Cannon Hill TOD, shopping centre)

Suggestions and refinements welcome..

...that would be 8tph off-peak on the 2 tier lines, and 12tph on 3 tier lines.
The infrastructure will not allow this on the Cleveland, Beenleigh, and Caboolture Lines.

I think we need to first push for 15min inner suburban frequencies, before starting to suggest more multi-tier timetables. One step at a time!

[#Metro]

The infrastructure will not allow this on the Cleveland, Beenleigh, and Caboolture Lines.

The more I think about it the more it seems that Brisbane needs a metro.

There are 2 types of commuter:
1. Commuter which lives within 5 km of the city.
2. Everyone else (long distance)

The problem with heavy rail long distance is bottlenecks and lack of sectorisation. This means crossings, crossing conflicts, single track, passing issues and making sure that freight trains can get through etc. Sydney has a hybrid system where it is metro frequency in the city and suburban further out. And they are looking at a metro.

With a metro, it is one isolated line, no crossings. No bottlenecks, no freight services, automatic sectorisation, services every few minutes, and if put in place it can be built with standard gauge from the start. It would take hundreds off buses off the street and free up places on the heavy rail system for long distance commuters which actually need service.

The if the ICRCS goes ahead it will add a paltry 3 stations to the inner city after a wait of 2016 and 2026. And that is not allowing for the fact that nothing this (or any government) seems to do is ever delivered on time or without the mandatory cost blowout.

ICRCS good, but not good enough IMHO.

[Arnz]

The infrastructure will not allow this on the Cleveland, Beenleigh, and Caboolture Lines.

The triple track on the North Coast Line between Northgate and Lawnton is very underutilised as it is.  Should at least be able to operate 15 mins off-peak as far as Petrie on the current infrastructure.

Scheduling issues with Pax, Freight and Long Distance start north of Lawnton on the double track between Lawnton and Beerburrum.

[Tramwayjohn]

What I believe is needed on the Ipswich and Caboolture lines is a three car train every 15 minutes rather than a six car train every half an hour. Then, half of the services would express, all day. Brisbane does not need a "Metro" but instead a station built in Normanby with direct Busway connection. Trains from the Ipswich and Beenleigh lines could then operate to Normanby with the current number of services via the Brisbane CBD. What I call the "3r's could be introduced. Express from Roma Street to Redbank and then all stations to Rosewood, once an hour with a similar service terminating in Ipswich once an hour. These expresses would continue to Caboolture as express from Fortitude Valley to Northgate and then Petrie  and then all to Caboolture.

A new station to be built beside the tennis centre at Tennyson. Richlands trains to run every 30 minutes via Tennyson.

In addition, join bus routes "100" "463" and "500" into one, Brisbane-Ipswich route.  Not "fast" but very convenient to cut out missed connections. Check out the "903" in Melbourne to see what can be done by joining bus routes.

[stephenk]

The infrastructure will not allow this on the Cleveland, Beenleigh, and Caboolture Lines.

The triple track on the North Coast Line between Northgate and Lawnton is very underutilised as it is.  Should at least be able to operate 15 mins off-peak as far as Petrie on the current infrastructure.

Scheduling issues with Pax, Freight and Long Distance start north of Lawnton on the double track between Lawnton and Beerburrum.

Tramtrain's suggestion resulted in 12tph at Petrie, off-peak, in both directions, with 2 service patterns running express. This is not possible with current infrastructure and freight requirements.

The infrastructure will not allow this on the Cleveland, Beenleigh, and Caboolture Lines.

The more I think about it the more it seems that Brisbane needs a metro.

There are 2 types of commuter:
1. Commuter which lives within 5 km of the city.
2. Everyone else (long distance)

The problem with heavy rail long distance is bottlenecks and lack of sectorisation. This means crossings, crossing conflicts, single track, passing issues and making sure that freight trains can get through etc. Sydney has a hybrid system where it is metro frequency in the city and suburban further out. And they are looking at a metro.

With a metro, it is one isolated line, no crossings. No bottlenecks, no freight services, automatic sectorisation, services every few minutes, and if put in place it can be built with standard gauge from the start. It would take hundreds off buses off the street and free up places on the heavy rail system for long distance commuters which actually need service.

The if the ICRCS goes ahead it will add a paltry 3 stations to the inner city after a wait of 2016 and 2026. And that is not allowing for the fact that nothing this (or any government) seems to do is ever delivered on time or without the mandatory cost blowout.

ICRCS good, but not good enough IMHO.

Tramtrain - the Cross City Rail project will free up track capacity through the CBD for increased off-peak and peak-services. This will allow for more metro like frequencies to be run across more of the network. For example, the 2015 off-peak service pattern mentioned in the ICRCS (assuming that infrastructure has been built as planned) has 4tph running to Petrie, Shorncliffe, Ferny Grove, Cleveland, Beenleigh, Robina, Springfield, Ipswich. This would give many stations served by 2 routes 8tphpd, 16tphpd at Central on the existing lines, and 7tphpd at Central on the new line (23tphpd combined) off-peak. Peak capacity would be approx 65tphpd combined. 

The cross city rail project allow suburban services to run through the CBD. A metro would not. A metro would require outer suburban commuters to change trains. A metro would not increase suburban rail capacity through the CBD. I just don't see your argument for a fully segregated metro in Brisbane.

[#Metro]

Well, I'm not exactly an expert. But the problem is that there are 2 markets: long and short distance.
You are putting everyone in the same train = overcrowding. They need to be split.
Brisbane City Council is pursuing this idea.

Under the ICRCS can it might be metro-like in the immediate CBD, but in the inner suburbs, on individual lines, it would not. Its not one or the other, both have merits. Though I favour separation of functions to achieve effectiveness.

This is not possible with current infrastructure and freight requirements.

This is one of a list of problems. Bottlenecks and inability to separate freight/passenger interactions.
A metro could also be fully automated. Changing trains becomes a non-issue when frequencies become very high.

[#Metro]

http://www.brisbane.qld.gov.au/BCC:BASE::pc=PC_2698

10.3 Metro
A high-frequency underground Metro system that distributes passengers across the inner
city is proposed for consideration after 2026. The Metro would provide a high-frequency
service to connect major passenger generators such as hospitals, universities, busway and
heavy rail stations, sporting venues, and major commercial and residential centres. The
Metro terminal stations would be located to facilitate interchange with bus and BUZ services.
A conceptual route network for the Metro system is shown in figure 10-3.

Lord Mayors Mass Transit Report 2007, Brisbane City Council, Brisbane, p52

Features Metro stations at Normanby, QUT Kelvin Grove, Wickham Tce, Exhibition, Spring Hill and RBWH.

The Metro Proposal and the ICRCS need to be intergrated in planning so that maximum synergy can be gained, and unnecessary duplication minimised. Brisbane City Council and QLD Gov need to start talking to each other before they spend $billions on projects!

[longboi]

This is exactly what I have been saying  Not only are the BCC onboard but so are the State Government: http://www.transport.qld.gov.au/Home/Projects_and_initiatives/Projects/Brisbane+inner+city+metro


The ICRCS and the proposed inner city metro are two different things which serve two different purposes; Long distance commuters and short trips within the inner city respectively. The current rail network and the proposed upgrades are too widely spaced to effectively work as a metro. It will always primarily cater for the City-Suburbs commuters.

A metro serves to move people around the inner-city area, negating the need for cars. Ideally most major centres in the inner-city will be served by the metro and there will be plenty of connections to other modes of transport for people travelling further afield.

[stephenk]

Well, I'm not exactly an expert. But the problem is that there are 2 markets: long and short distance.
You are putting everyone in the same train = overcrowding. They need to be split.

In the ICRCS there appears to be 2 tier services for outer suburban and inner suburban rail from 2015. Thus all passengers would not be on the same train. If supply exceeded demand on outer suburban services, an inner city metro is not going to solve the overcrowding is it?

Brisbane City Council is pursuing this idea.

Since when have Brisbane City Council been public transport experts? They are Liberals. I think you have a lot to learn about politics!

Under the ICRCS can it might be metro-like in the immediate CBD, but in the inner suburbs, on individual lines, it would not.

So how would an inner city metro increase suburban rail frequencies, which is Brisbane's top priority. It wouldn't.

Its not one or the other, both have merits.

So where is the endless pot of money to build both 2 suburban rail tunnels and a metro system?
Maybe once both of the higher priority suburban rail tunnels are operational, we should start thinking about a metro system.

This is one of a list of problems. Bottlenecks and inability to separate freight/passenger interactions.
A metro could also be fully automated. Changing trains becomes a non-issue when frequencies become very high.

The ICRCS includes adding extra tracks in outer suburban areas to reduce bottlenecks.  
Yes, a metro is high frequency, but that wouldn't help the majority of Brisbane's population that does not live the centre of Brisbane.

I would like to point out that I am a supporter of metro systems. I have a big interest in them, used London Underground for 9 years, and have travelled on metros in nearly 30 cities. However, I do not feel that metro is the right solution for Brisbane until the suburban rail system has been sorted out.

[ozbob]

This is the mental framework that seems to be gelling in my head.

Phase one - has been the improvements in bus transport in SEQ - Busways, Buz the lot (not quite over yet either)

Phase two - just starting really, a rail ramp up, urban and interurban capacity and frequency increases.  Cross River rail project important part of this.  Other extensions to the network.  TOD is no longer just a drink.

Phase three - to come, metro and light rail.

[#Metro]

Thanks Nikko... sorry if I misunderstood or wasn't clear..

Money will come from:
1. Not doing this "diving under Fairfield" rail tunnel business which is hugely expensive (and for what? 4 stations!)
2. Not tunneling through Roma St Parklands just to get to a parallel alignment with the existing line
3. Cashing in on the increase in land values that comes with development around rail stations (TODs) and rising home prices.
4. Reductions in catering for cars, and
5. Using what we already have to the fullest
6. Less buses
7. Less car accidents and upgrades and traffic calming
8. Asset sales (they are doing it anyway)
9. Rates
10. Debt financing
11. Go to Canberra & Treasury

The inner city, fortitude valley and inner core suburbs may well become car-free with this plan and the metro together.
Imagine that.

Brisbane City Council is on the ball. They are on the right BUZ.
I daresay they often make up for the things QLD Gov should be doing/paying for.
The consultants are paid for their work, and not for anything else.

[#Metro]

From http://www.transport.qld.gov.au/Home/Projects_and_initiatives/Projects/Brisbane+inner+city+metro

Over the next 25 years, the population in the inner five kilometre ring surrounding Brisbane's CBD will grow by about 50 per cent, or an extra 90 000 residents. At the same time, the number of workers needing to enter the city each day will double from 200 000 to 400 000.

We need a metro because the within 5km of the city, population will double. Where will those people go?
Around the TODs on the Exhibition line!

The first step is delivery of the Cross River Rail project, which will open up the bottleneck restricting train services in the inner city through Central and Roma Street stations. Cross River Rail includes a new rail line, a new river crossing and new inner city rail stations.

The next step after Cross River Rail would be the metro project, which can bring in high capacity and high frequency services.

A metro system is an electric passenger railway in an urban area with high capacity and high frequency services. It is usually separated from other traffic and is unchallenged in its ability to transport large amounts of people quickly over short distances — making it perfect for urban areas like Brisbane.

This isn't a statement from the BCC. This is a statement from QLD Gov...

[#Metro]

Trains off-peak minimum frequency 5am-11pm every 20 minutes.

[somebody]

Trains off-peak minimum frequency 5am-11pm every 20 minutes.

Not doable on current infrastructure for Gold Coast, outer Beenleigh, outer Cleveland and Doomben lines.

[#Metro]

How do they manage to run a gamut of trains during peak hour, but can't add single extra train per hour in the off peak when presumably the peak hour trains are sitting idle in stabling?

How can they not add a single extra service each hour on the weekends?

[somebody]

How do they manage to run a gamut of trains during peak hour, but can't add single extra train per hour in the off peak when presumably the peak hour trains are sitting idle in stabling?

How can they not add a single extra service each hour on the weekends?

They don't exceed 30 minute frequency in peak at Doomben.

Gold Coast/Beenleigh: This is due to the express operations.
Cleveland: single track constraints.

Caboolture/Ipswich/Shorncliffe/Ferny Grove?  That would be fine.

[#Metro]

They don't exceed 30 minute frequency in peak at Doomben.

Don't worry about Doomben. 

Gold Coast/Beenleigh: This is due to the express operations.

Yes, but there is a train every 15 minutes in the peak hour isn't there? And there has been extensive track duplication happening as well on that line.

Caboolture/Ipswich/Shorncliffe/Ferny Grove

These are fine. Keperra-Ferny Grove is single track, sticks out like a sore thumb, must remove.

[somebody]

Gold Coast/Beenleigh: This is due to the express operations.

Yes, but there is a train every 15 minutes in the peak hour isn't there? And there has been extensive track duplication happening as well on that line.

Yes, but not in the counter peak direction.  Would need some quadding to be able to get near to that off peak or counter peak.

How many times has this been pointed out?

[O_128]

Gold Coast/Beenleigh: This is due to the express operations.

Yes, but there is a train every 15 minutes in the peak hour isn't there? And there has been extensive track duplication happening as well on that line.

Yes, but not in the counter peak direction.  Would need some quadding to be able to get near to that off peak or counter peak.

How many times has this been pointed out?

What about 4tph to beenleigh 2tph to goldcoast both ways. And then 2tph from varsity to beenleigh with a transfer to the city.

[somebody]

What about 4tph to beenleigh 2tph to goldcoast both ways.

Even that still can't be done unless you get really tricky with overtaking moves on the third track in both directions.  Not even sure if that could be done at all.  You'd really want a decent length quad track section.

[#Metro]

Frustrating with the heavy rail system...

If you can't add 1 train extra per hour in the counter peak, that surely must qualify as an epic fail.
And to fix it is going to cost heaps I expect?
So many bottlenecks, so many conflicting moves and battling with freight...

[stephenk]

Frustrating with the heavy rail system...

If you can't add 1 train extra per hour in the counter peak, that surely must qualify as an epic fail.
And to fix it is going to cost heaps I expect?
So many bottlenecks, so many conflicting moves and battling with freight...

If you haven't noticed, the lack of infrastructure spending is something that crops up on this forum quite a lot.

4tph off-peak on the Beenleigh Line to Kuraby is not possible without either a quadruplication between Fairfield and Dutton Park (approx $500m) or slowing the Gold Coast trains by around 4 mins.

[longboi]

What about 4tph to beenleigh 2tph to goldcoast both ways.

Even that still can't be done unless you get really tricky with overtaking moves on the third track in both directions.  Not even sure if that could be done at all.  You'd really want a decent length quad track section.

You would have a hard time passing trains at Beenleigh as well.

[stephenk]

What about 4tph to beenleigh 2tph to goldcoast both ways.

Even that still can't be done unless you get really tricky with overtaking moves on the third track in both directions.  Not even sure if that could be done at all.  You'd really want a decent length quad track section.

You would have a hard time passing trains at Beenleigh as well.

Beenleigh has a reversing siding, so that reversing Beenleigh Line trains do not get in the way of Gold Coast trains.

[longboi]

What about 4tph to beenleigh 2tph to goldcoast both ways.

Even that still can't be done unless you get really tricky with overtaking moves on the third track in both directions.  Not even sure if that could be done at all.  You'd really want a decent length quad track section.

You would have a hard time passing trains at Beenleigh as well.

Beenleigh has a reversing siding, so that reversing Beenleigh Line trains do not get in the way of Gold Coast trains.

Yes I know I use it regularly.

[stephenk]

What about 4tph to beenleigh 2tph to goldcoast both ways.

Even that still can't be done unless you get really tricky with overtaking moves on the third track in both directions.  Not even sure if that could be done at all.  You'd really want a decent length quad track section.

You would have a hard time passing trains at Beenleigh as well.

Beenleigh has a reversing siding, so that reversing Beenleigh Line trains do not get in the way of Gold Coast trains.

Yes I know I use it regularly.

So why did you say "You would have a hard time passing trains at Beenleigh as well", if you know that trains do not need to pass there? 

[#Metro]

A lack of self-containment and a dedicated ROW is another one.
So many conflicts and it has to fight with freight as well...and it is so expensive to put fixes upon fixes.

[O_128]

What QR needs is a clearways plan similar to sydneys to untangle all of the lines.

[stephenk]

What QR needs is a clearways plan similar to sydneys to untangle all of the lines.

If SEQIPP rail followed the findings of the ICRCS, we would have a plan closer to Clearways.

[somebody]

What QR needs is a clearways plan similar to sydneys to untangle all of the lines.

Perhaps.  There's several inconsistencies in that plan though.  Most notably South Coast (Woollongong) trains interfere with other interurbans near Sydney Terminal, and probably north of Wolli Creek.  I just think that plan should have been more judiciously applied.  Through trains heading north at Berowra must now take the diverging leg of the points for example to allow the turning train to sit on the middle track.  Another problem is Liverpool via Granville trains needing to use the local tracks rather than the suburbans.

I think they just need to get rid of the Mayne via Roma St #7 move and they would be 90% there.

[longboi]

What about 4tph to beenleigh 2tph to goldcoast both ways.

Even that still can't be done unless you get really tricky with overtaking moves on the third track in both directions.  Not even sure if that could be done at all.  You'd really want a decent length quad track section.

You would have a hard time passing trains at Beenleigh as well.

Beenleigh has a reversing siding, so that reversing Beenleigh Line trains do not get in the way of Gold Coast trains.

Yes I know I use it regularly.

So why did you say "You would have a hard time passing trains at Beenleigh as well", if you know that trains do not need to pass there? 

I actually misunderstood O_128's post. I thought he was suggesting 6tph in each direction.