Queensland fares

[SurfRail]

Who cares what it does for traffic?

[Jonno]

Less than 1% reduction.

So there it is.

A good compromise would be to keep the 50c fares initiative for all areas outside of SEQ to reflect the low service level on offer.

And within the SEQ region, charge normal Translink fares.

It has never been about reducing congestion!! To do that you need to reduce road capacity!  Until we pay an equal % for our roads then public transport should be funded fairly! Why fund a worse transport mode more than another? Answer that question! The externalities are well known so why should it be subsidies more? The expansion of roads is never been linked to the funds raised! Why should public transport be? Why the double-standard? Justify this double standard?

[achiruel]

Less than 1% reduction.

So there it is.

A good compromise would be to keep the 50c fares initiative for all areas outside of SEQ to reflect the low service level on offer.

And within the SEQ region, charge normal Translink fares.

Plenty of places within SEQ that have terrible service levels, too. Should we give them 50¢ fares, too?

[timh]

It was pitched first and foremost as a cost of living relief measure. Any reduction to traffic was a welcome secondary effect

[OzGamer]

Improved public transport never reduces road congestion - it is a complete misunderstanding of how these things work to imagine it would. The only things proven to durably reduce road congestion are road pricing, road speed or capacity reductions, and recessions.

You improve public transport because it provides mobility to people in an efficient, sustainable, equitable way, not to make life easier for people driving cars.

[#Metro]

This now raises the question as to whether the additional trips are former car trips (seems unlikely now) or existing users just taking more trips.

If it is the latter, then minimal impact on mode share as well.

[#Metro]

Tallin, Estonia.

Free PT apparently had no impact on mode share in this case. Additional trips were from existing users.

[#Metro]

Rightly or wrongly, I was sure that one of the success measures for 50c fares was congestion reduction.

To check this, I went to the Queensland Government media releases website: https://statements.qld.gov.au/

And there is the claim, in black and white and repeated multiple times:

Miles plan to bust congestion: Public transport (almost) free
Published Sunday, 26 May, 2024 at 07:56 AM

JOINT STATEMENT

Premier
The Honourable Steven Miles

Deputy Premier, Treasurer and Minister for Trade and Investment
The Honourable Cameron Dick

Minister for Transport and Main Roads and Minister for Digital Services
The Honourable Bart Mellish

Significantly reducing the cost barrier to public transport will encourage more people to leave the car at home, leading to a reduction in road congestion.

It's expected this initiative will increase public transport patronage and reduce congestion on Queensland's busy roads.

"Encouraging more Queenslanders to jump on a bus or train to get to work or school will help bust congestion. 

"We hope they will make a lot more people in the South-East consider using public transport for their daily commute, which reduces congestion for everyone."

Notes
Miles plan to bust congestion: Public transport (almost) free
https://statements.qld.gov.au/statements/100402

[timh]

You really should stop believing things that politicians say.

[OzGamer]

The fact that it was said in a political statement doesn't mean that it would happen, nor that anyone ever really believed it.

[HappyTrainGuy]

You really should stop believing things that politicians say.

Pollies always tell the truth. Remember Newman's no frontline cuts for the railways? Meanwhile station staff, drivers and mtce crews left in droves.

Metro has a real problem believing and falling for political spin doctoring time and time again. For example constantly bringing up BCC offering the state to buy BT full well knowing the state wasn't in a position to do so. And don't get him started on a BCC Doomben line conversion

[#Metro]

Public Transport: Before 50¢ fares, an expert panel was working on wide-ranging reforms
https://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/national/queensland/before-50-fares-an-expert-panel-was-working-on-wide-ranging-reforms-20241115-p5kqwk.html

The panel heard from a Transport Department official that "reducing fares would be an ineffectual way of increasing patronage and reducing congestion".

 

[verbatim9]

As per the article $8 weekend and public holiday caps would be good, as well as other measures mentioned.

Interesting that the article mentions that price alone doesn't drive patronage, yet a combination of both fares and frequency, as well as quality of public transport drives ridership.

[verbatim9]

Public Transport: Before 50¢ fares, an expert panel was working on wide-ranging reforms
https://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/national/queensland/before-50-fares-an-expert-panel-was-working-on-wide-ranging-reforms-20241115-p5kqwk.html

The panel heard from a Transport Department official that "reducing fares would be an ineffectual way of increasing patronage and reducing congestion".

 

As per the article $8 weekend and public holiday caps would be good, as well as other measures mentioned.

Interesting that the article mentions that price alone doesn't drive patronage, yet a combination of both fares and frequency, as well as quality of public transport drives ridership.

Saying that it would be hard to justify any increases to a sustainable fare structure in the near term until cross river rail is operational. Then only with an increase of off peak frequency across buses and trains could we see such models from the article implemented.

[#Metro]

Some considerations as to why fares should go back to normal levels:

- Data is there now so this 'trial' does not have to continue indefinitely.
- Impact on congestion confirmed to be < 1%.
- Policy is unlikely to stimulate new PT investment in service on its own. Returning patronage to past baseline levels is not a strong motivation to add new services generally.
- Service improvements can also be achieved... by investing in service improvements directly... which in turn can directly stimulate PT patronage growth.
- RBOT members generally realise the policy was a pre-election sweetener/vote bait. The election is now over (and the party that proposed it voted out).
- Opportunity to divert $300m p.a. funds to major service improvements - which aligns with medium term RBOT objectives. It will also accelerate network changes that need to embedded before the Olympics. Service changes seem to move at a glacial pace in QLD, so the sooner this is funded and started, the better chance we have of completing it before the 2032 Olympics.
- Similar level of patronage increase could be achieved by spending the funds on service improvement, which is also investing in PT. You're not losing that money, just changing what it is spent on (more frequent PT).
- In terms of cost of living, this can be handled through the concession fare process (e.g. potentially broadening the scope of that). Extending useful and frequent PT to new areas so that residents can reduce the costs that come with car ownership/dependency is also a form of cost of living relief.

The longer this policy is around, the more difficult it will be to wind back. The government might be inclined to adopt compensating policies such as freezing service levels or 'do minimum only' improvements. This is not in our long-term interests IMO.

To create an environment where the politicians are comfortable adjusting the policy, RBOT can help by taking the lead and taking a public position that we would like the funds to be spent on boosted High-frequency buses and more off-peak train services (like Perth), for example, as part of funding our BEEP initiative.

There is a reasonable case for low fares on the weekend, in regional areas, and low fares on Airtrain to continue.

If there is any remaining doubt about the merits of this 50c fares policy, then it should be referred for assessment to the reintroduced QLD Productivity Commission. The commission should determine the cost per additional passenger added to the network as part of this policy, and compare this against the competing policy of a bus and train frequency and span boost across the SEQ PT network.

[#Metro]

Minutes of the PT Fares Advisory Panel (RTI)

The Brisbanetimes appears to have placed an RTI for its fares article. The relevant RTI is RTI-4714. It is not updated on the TMR RTI disclosure log currently which shows its status as "currently being processed".



Notes

Disclosure log
https://www.tmr.qld.gov.au/about-us/right-to-information/disclosure-log

[AnonymouslyBad]

^ The question is what is RBOT's actual postion.

We all know 50c fares are bad policy in that there's better ways to spend the money. (Not that that's how politics work - if 50c fares end tomorrow that $300m is not going anywhere in particular.)

But this needs to be balanced against the fact that "go back to July 2024 fares" isn't a sensible advocacy position. The reality is that 50c fares are popular and we are not going back to $4-whatever for one zone. We just aren't.

I think RBOT does need to advocate for fare zones to be meaningful again because that still allows for short trips to be cheap (1 zone for 50c! or even 2 zones for 50c!). The really dangerous position to be in is one where a "flat fare" has become entrenched but that flat fare obviously needs to increase, by a lot.

[#Metro]

Thanks for sharing your view AnonymouslyBad.

Well, the party that proposed it was voted out.

And we know that if the congestion impact of this fares policy was <1% then that implies the low fares generated additional trips mainly through additional trips by existing users. Ideally we actually want motorists to be converting across (thinking of member Jonno and the IRTP mode share graphs he often shows).

So why should we continue to invest in a policy that we now know doesn't convert motorists? How can we get motorists to convert to PT? Decent frequency...

And there are many popular things around that are not sound. The Gympie Road tunnel is popular among motorists (a majority constituency) and also both parties... but a cold analysis shows that the capacity is low as is the BCR for it. And so on.

This policy appears to have been designed to attract broad support (perhaps including ours). It is designed around a concept similar to giving candy to a baby (the easy part) and removing it from the baby very hard. But we all know a diet of candy for babies is not healthy long term.

One expects that the policy will be phased out over time, and the good news is that we *do* have something to offer in compensation - frequent buses and train services in preparation for the Olympics.

But yes, definitely acknowledge that it is going to be a challenge. It has been designed to be that way.

 

[AJ Transport]

I think there is very low chance of this government or opposition getting rid of 50 cent fares in the near term.

However if they do it will almost definitely not be accompanied by increased services.

Most of the time major parties don't care about what makes good policy and they don't care about evidence.

For example this government will postpone Gold Coast light rail extensions and push ahead with Gympie Rd tollway tunnel.

[ozbob]

Brisbanetimes --> Before 50¢ fares, an expert panel was working on wide-ranging reforms $

The decision to slash public transport fares to 50¢ contradicted reform work that had been under way for months, newly released documents reveal. ...

...Documents obtained under the Right to Information Act show that, behind the scenes, government-commissioned experts and departmental officials had been working on a more nuanced and layered suite of reforms.

https://x.com/ozbob13/status/1858906014525112761

[#Metro]

Perhaps replace the 'Fares Advisory Panel' with the 'Frequency Advisory Panel'...

[Gazza]

I would have thought $2 fares would have been a better gimmick. Still sounds cheap but hey i just quadrupled revenue.

I think that could be a safe way of framing the debate.

What would you prefer 50c fares + current service levels?
$2 fares + more services 7 days a week, including higher frequency and more express services.

[OzGamer]

Personally I wish they had just made public transport free all weekend and after 7PM on weekdays. Would have cost a lot less, used lots of spare capacity, and still had a good headline.

[timh]

Personally I wish they had just made public transport free all weekend and after 7PM on weekdays. Would have cost a lot less, used lots of spare capacity, and still had a good headline.

Sells a lot less politically as a cost of living relief though

[OzGamer]

Personally I wish they had just made public transport free all weekend and after 7PM on weekdays. Would have cost a lot less, used lots of spare capacity, and still had a good headline.

Sells a lot less politically as a cost of living relief though

I would actually do more, but it's less pithy than 50c fares:

* All services free all weekend and after 7PM
* Under 18 and all school students free on all services
* Over 65 free on all services
* Local bus services (not going to the CBD or a university) completely free
* Cross River Ferry Services Free
* Rail Feeder buses (eg 451, 452) free

These encourage public transport usage, use spare capacity, provide cost of living relief to many low income people, help social equity, and maintain revenue from relatively higher income CBD work commuters.

[GonzoFonzie]

The shortlisted options included:

A daily cap, with free travel after the first two paid journeys;
Half-price travel after the first six paid journeys in a week;
A weekend daily cap with no zone restrictions, for example $8 for all-day Saturday travel;
A monthly pass or subscription, for example $100 for unlimited 2 zone journeys;
An annual pass, for example $1000 a year for unlimited 2 zone journeys.

The officials and experts also discussed tourist pricing, family and corporate rates, and off-peak discounts.

Of course external consultants with no understanding of public transport would shortlist options that have already been tried and failed. As for the tourist, family, and corporate pricing ideas - this isn't tickets to Dreamworld.

Lets make public transport more "accessible" by adding random caps and having eight different pricing rates, with the option of up-front monthly subscriptions. 

So public transport infrastructure is going to be part of the 100-day review. 

[verbatim9]

The $8 weekend and public holiday caps are good considering there was nothing prior.

[Jonno]

Personally I wish they had just made public transport free all weekend and after 7PM on weekdays. Would have cost a lot less, used lots of spare capacity, and still had a good headline.

Sells a lot less politically as a cost of living relief though

I would actually do more, but it's less pithy than 50c fares:

* All services free all weekend and after 7PM
* Under 18 and all school students free on all services
* Over 65 free on all services
* Local bus services (not going to the CBD or a university) completely free
* Cross River Ferry Services Free
* Rail Feeder buses (eg 451, 452) free

These encourage public transport usage, use spare capacity, provide cost of living relief to many low income people, help social equity, and maintain revenue from relatively higher income CBD work commuters.

spot on and then redirect wasteful "congestion-busting" road project funding into overhauling public transport services and infrastructure.

[#Metro]

Lets make public transport more "accessible" by adding random caps and having eight different pricing rates, with the option of up-front monthly subscriptions.

Agreed. Let's not go back to the days of complex fares and ticketing.

It would be good to have stability in fares as well. Every BCC or State election some politician wants to tinker with the fares.

In NSW, fares are determined on recommendation by IPART, an independent pricing regulator.

There might be other ways such as requiring charges to fares to be announced 12 months in advance, or a 4 year fare path.

By taking fare tinkering off the table, politicians will only have two main choices: improve infrastructure and/or services in the run up to an election.

Notes

IPART
https://www.ipart.nsw.gov.au/Home/Industries/Transport/Transport-Fares

[verbatim9]

^^Wasn't Seq fares tied to the Brisbane City inflation percentage, which was also independent from political interference and decision making.

[achiruel]

^^Wasn't Seq fares tied to the Brisbane City inflation percentage, which was also independent from political interference and decision making.

Having it tied to the inflation rate of an LGA that comprises less than 50% of the region's population is not a good metric to use.

If they're going to tie it to some kind of index, it should use the Wage Price Index.

[JimmyP]

What about something simple and politically spinnabke like:
 - 50c per zone in peak
 - 50c flat rate off-peak/weekends
 - Weekends cap at $2

Keeps things cheap for cost of living pressures for the time being while also giving some extra peak revenue back again and encouraging off-peak useage where there is generally more available capacity.
Used in conjunction with service upgrades, I think this would work well and can then be tweaked once we get a decent network worth paying more for.

IMO it's also pretty naive to think the money being used to subsidise 50c fares would automatically be used for PT upgrades if fares went back to the old levels. Its not like it came out of the PT improvements budget to start with AIUI.

[SurfRail]

^^Wasn't Seq fares tied to the Brisbane City inflation percentage, which was also independent from political interference and decision making.

Having it tied to the inflation rate of an LGA that comprises less than 50% of the region's population is not a good metric to use.

If they're going to tie it to some kind of index, it should use the Wage Price Index.

The Brisbane (All Groups) CPI figures are a pretty common basis for working out annual adjustments (eg to lease rents).  The affected price doesn't have to relate to Brisbane, just in Queensland.  My leases refer to the Brisbane figure whether the lease is for premises in Coolangatta or Coorparoo or Coolum or Cooktown or Cloncurry.