A Donnybrook highway: potential solution to the Bruce?

[Arnz]

http://www.sunshinecoastdaily.com.au/news/a-donnybrook-highway-potential-solution-to-the-bru/3090958/#more-replies

COULD a new road connecting Bells Creek to Caboolture via Donnybrook be the solution to the Sunshine Coast's traffic woes?

Self-employed engineer Dave Ritson thinks so and he has presented a map showing the possible connection to Main Roads Minister Mark Bailey.

Mr Ritson, who stood for Division 1 in the Sunshine Coast Council elections, said the alternative road would solve many of the problems on the Bruce Hwy and wouldn't cost more to build.

"How are you going to upgrade the Bruce Hwy without major disruptions to traffic?" he asked.

"Even when there is an extra lane, where do you divert traffic to when there is an accident?

"This new road will solve those problems."

He suggested the road could be created at the Bells Creek Arterial and then extended through mostly state forest to come out at the Buchanan Road interchange at Morayfield.


And he said the planning for it was already in place.

"There are long-term plans for another highway, known as the North South Urban Arterial, going from the Gateway Motorway all the way to Kawana via the Bells Creek Arterial," he said.

"I believe the northern section should be constructed first."

Mr Ritson has explained how it wouldn't be too hard or expensive to build.

"This will be mostly greenfield construction which is a much lower cost per kilometre than upgrading, mainly due to minimised traffic management," Mr Ritson said.

"There will also be no disruption of the Bruce Hwy during construction. This significance can't be over-stated.

"And there will be improved access to Bribie Island, Beachmere, Toorbul, Donnybrook and potential for development of that region."

He suggested the new road could also allow for Caloundra South to be a "little bigger on its south-east corner" and create future expansion for Halls Creek.

"The project would also see Beerburrum-Donnybrook Rd and Pumicestone Rd made suitable for road diversions around incidents on the Bruce Hwy."

Mr Ritson said it would double capacity for traffic to and from the Sunshine Coast instead of only the 50% extra lanes to the Bruce Hwy would allow for.

And it would eliminate the need for an upgrade to Steve Irwin Way to cope with the backlog caused by major traffic accidents on the Bruce Hwy.

Mr Bailey said he couldn't comment on the Donnybrook highway proposal as he hadn't had a chance to closely examine plans.

"It is easy to say, 'Build a road somewhere', but it would have to be investigated," he said.

[Fares_Fair]

or we could just duplicate the rail line to make it the 3 'F's
Fast, efficient and affordable and achieve a far greater transport advantage to the region, by removing unnecessary B-Double trucks from the Highway, and cars too. 

[ozbob]

or we could just duplicate the rail line to make it the 3 'F's
Fast, efficient and affordable and achieve a far greater transport advantage to the region, by removing unnecessary B-Double trucks from the Highway, and cars too. 

[Stillwater]

The State Government is still going to have the blinkers on and look to a highway solution -- because the feds will pay 80 per cent of any road widening costs.  The Donnybrook solution might be more feasible and a better solution, but since when has this government gone for the best, or most sensible? 

It would have to pay 100 per cent of the cost of the Donnybrook solution and (at this stage) 100 per cent of any rail solution -- and 20 per cent of any highway solution on an 80:20 split with the feds.  From that perspective, it is a better option, hands down.  Under normal circumstances, the focus should be on the engineering, but those people up Landsborough way should be thinking about getting the feds to alter the funding incentive mix.  Whatever happened to Malcolm Turnbull, that champion of public transport?

If he put an offer on the table for fed funding for SCL upgrade, the state would be forced to change its planning and thinking.  Right now, there is no incentive for it to do so.

We, who pay taxes to the feds and to the state, are the poorer because a more expensive road project will be the likely outcome -- because it is the cheapest way out for the state.

[red dragin]

The problem overlooked in the article above.

The North South Arterial through North Lakes/Mango Hill/Griffin is that it is/will be a max 80kmhr road with intersections every 2km or so. Hardly highway standard.

[City Designer]

The proposed Bruce Highway widening between Caloundra Road and the Sunshine Motorway will have the first divergent diamond interchange in Australia.

[aldonius]

By which you mean the Caloundra Rd figure-eight interchange will be converted to a DDI?

[City Designer]

Correct. Divergent diamond at the intersection of Caloundra Road and the Bruce Highway to reduce the impact on the forested areas.

Not convinced a divergent diamond is the right answer but I see the point in trying.

[aldonius]

If nothing else it'll bring literally tens of civil-engineering-gunzels to the area on daytrips. And as we all know, tourism is a very important part of the Queensland economy!

[ozbob]

If nothing else it'll bring literally tens of civil-engineering-gunzels to the area on daytrips. And as we all know, tourism is a very important part of the Queensland economy!

[DJR96]

Clearly I should look at more of the forum pages......

If anyone's interested, here's the concept drawing of the Donnybrook Hwy:-

https://www.facebook.com/Donnybrook-Highway-920942508075236/

[edit] I should have included this at the same time:-
There are a number of very big advantages to this.
•   Mostly greenfield construction which is much lower cost per km than upgrading, mainly due to minimised traffic management (which can be 30%+ of a project).
•   No disruption to the Bruce Hwy during construction, especially important when it is at capacity already. The significance of this can't be over-stated.
•   Improved access to Beachmere, Bribie Island, Toorbul, Donnybrook. Potential for plenty of development in that region.
•   About 15% of it is already committed with the Bells Creek Arterial. Only a relatively minor realignment (in planning) to work together.
•   Aura could be a little bigger on its SE corner. Potential for easier future expansion to Halls Creek without impacting on interurban green break. Stockland would be keen for it.
•   Project would also see Beerburrum-Donnybrook Rd and Pumicestone Rd made suitable for diversions around incidents on the Bruce Hwy.
•   It would properly double capacity, not just 50% with extra lanes to the Bruce Hwy.
•   Reduce demand on Caloundra Rd.
•   Eliminate need to use Steve Irwin Way for traffic diversions, and thus need to upgrade it so soon.
•   Once built, it will allow full diversions from the Bruce Hwy to be able to perform roadworks on it in the future.

There are long-term plans for another highway, known as the North South Urban Arterial (NSUA). It is meant to go from the Gateway Motorway all the way to Kawana via the Bells Creek Arterial. I propose that the northern section of this be constructed first. The southern end can be done later when a corridor is secured.

Put simply, I believe this project should not cost any more than the required major upgrade of the Bruce Hwy, yet still achieve some extra major advantages.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Also, Mark McArdle is hosting a open forum about roads and transport around Caloundra on Tuesday 18th Oct 6pm at the CCSA hall in Caloundra. Main topics will be about improving Caloundra Rd and access into Bellvista etc. But fast-tracking development the Bells Creek Arterial to the Bells Creek/Roys Rd interchange is an essential element to it, which builds on a possible Donnybrook Hwy.

See you there!

[tazzer9]

Pretty much any suggestion is better than upgrading the bruce highway (south of curra at least).

However you could even go an extreme with this and build with  linked with a rail line branching from narangba going to caloundra and maroochydore.   4 lane highway and a speedy rail line right next to it.   Its most flat, little obstacles that couldn't be cut down for profit in the way.   Could easily have the road at 110km/h and rail line at 160km/h. 

If the highway is at 110km/h the entire way, it could be feasible to chuck a toll on either it or the bruce highway and earn some $$$ back.

[#Metro]

See the pink line. That should be a railway line! first stage perhaps of Regional Rapid Rail to the Sunshine Coast.

Trains can run much faster than cars can legally drive (160 km/hr vs 110 km/hr) and can cover distance easily with wide station spacing (stations 10 km apart). During peak hour 12 000 pphd could be put through on the rail line, twice the capacity that a three lane per direction motorway could achieve.

TRAINS NOT LANES! 

[Old Northern Road]

That is one the dumbest proposals I have ever seen (although this is QLD so that is no guarantee it won't be built)

[tazzer9]

lets be frank.  It should be a rail line, but there is so much space you should do a high quality road at the same time.  There will be a road there at some stage, at least build it now at the cheapest it will ever be.  The highway would also benefit those in beachmere and bribie island.

Strong chance all that greenery will become houses, and they do need a road no matter what.

The bruce highway will always have traffic, but we could help reduce that traffic, along with its maintenance costs by having another route. 

A combined 4 lane highway and high speed rail corridor could be done for less than $2 billion.  Build the highway here to a high standard and then adding a toll to the bruce highway could recoup a very good portion of the construction cost. 

[DJR96]

OK, maybe something like this:-

https://www.facebook.com/Donnybrook-Highway-920942508075236/

So all the advantages previously stated for the Donnybrook Hwy continue to apply.
But now it extends all the way to the Gateway Mwy so it will help relieve congestion in the Mango Hill area of the Bruce Hwy too.

The rail line would branch off at the North Boondall station. It would take a fair bit of work to get it from there to the Deagan deviation. I hope the current roadworks there will leave room for it!

Heading north, the rail would diverge off to a station at Aura and then turn east resuming much the same route as the CAMCOS design.

At the northern end, Kawana Way will get connected the the Sunshine Mwy with the proposed Mooloolah River Interchange upgrade. Just needs to incorporate the rail line into it.

This is only a first draft and I can add more detail in time.

[Edit: Added some intersections and corrected route through North Lakes.]

[James]

From a planning perspective, the issue with joining the new arterial road to the Gateway at Deagon is:
- The ring road is already complete - doing this will send cars away from the main citybound access route. More cars will be put on to Sandgate Rd, already under a lot of pressure.
- The railway line will not join people to where they want to go - the proposed SCL line will bypass Petrie, Caboolture and make connections to places like Chermside a lot harder (not that I think that really happens much now anyway)
- The bottom part between Deagon and North Lakes is very swampy land - engineering a road through here would be pretty expensive
- Cost - do we really need so much road?
I could go on.

[#Metro]

A benefit-cost ratio models how efficient a project is at turning taxpayer cash into benefits for society.

For example, if a railway operator used gold for their rails, the railway would have exactly the same benefits as if it used steel for the rails (travel time savings, urban development, better connections, reduced CO2). However, it's cost base would be wildly inflated and thus the BCR would drop significantly.

There is a problem with building both a road and a rail line, and to see it, we need to apply the principle above.

Essentially, building both a road and rail line means that you have to pay for 2x infrastructure for 1/2 passenger load on each.

That is inefficient.

It is like using gold for the rails.

Even if both projects have positive BCRs above 1 separately, they might be lower than just a rail line alone.

Perhaps it would be better just to keep the existing Bruce Hwy and only put in one new upgrade, that being a rapid railway line.

Many people don't like the "beancounter approach" but if you think about it right, it does make a lot of sense...

[tazzer9]

A railway line on its own would likely never be built along that route as it would only cater for sunnie coast - brisbane cbd passengers.  Not that many people.  Rail is more expensive to build and maintain than a road, you would need serious patronage for a BCR above 1. 

Building road and rail doesnt double the costs.  It would only double the materials used.   It doesnt mean a doubling of land costs, labour and design. 

Nothing is there at the moment and you could realistically bundle it as a mega project and build future proofed water/sewerage/electrical as part of the project.  Doing it all as one project means you minimise the costs and make sure there isnt some dumb impediment later on.

[#Metro]

A railway line on its own would likely never be built along that route as it would only cater for sunnie coast - brisbane cbd passengers.  Not that many people.  Rail is more expensive to build and maintain than a road, you would need serious patronage for a BCR above 1.

These are good point, but I offer you:

- Faster trains 160 km/hr would attract lots more people to the line, and give serious competition to the car

- Few stations and wide stop spacing would dramatically cut labour costs, the largest element of operational costs

- Fewer stations means less cost spent on building stations - more money saved

- Building the stations as DDA and with ATP etc would enable DOO, bringing operational cost savings to perhaps 50% or so

- Building the line closer to the SC means that it can combine both regional and inter-regional functions (i.e. Noosa <--> Maroochydore <---> Caloundra <---> Caboolture as well as Sunshine Coast <---> CBD

Rail doesn't have to be build exactly as in the image, another alignment might be better but I leave that to the experts.

You can pick up more points if you zone land around the stations for maximum development - puts even more bums on seats and pulls in land tax and council rates revenue, which could be used to offset construction costs.

Building road and rail doesnt double the costs.  It would only double the materials used.   It doesnt mean a doubling of land costs, labour and design

. 

There is already a highway. The capacity of a highway lane is 2000 pphd tops. For rail to SC it would be more like 12 000 pphd. The road option is already there, it is inefficient at moving high volumes of pax and the addtion of rail would allow congestion on it to be bypassed.

Nothing is there at the moment and you could realistically bundle it as a mega project and build future proofed water/sewerage/electrical as part of the project.  Doing it all as one project means you minimise the costs and make sure there isnt some dumb impediment later on.

I would agree with you that if both are pursued, both be done at the same time as per AirportLink and the Northern Busway co-construction. However, I suspect it is even better to build the rail and then use the road component to make modest upgrades to the existing Bruce Hwy where necessary.

[Gazza]

Is there really much economic cost to congestion on the bruce north of Caboolture?

Is it just happening on weekends? (in which case, you aren't really costing the economy valuable time) or does it happen weekday in the peak direction too?

[tazzer9]

Yes, there is congestion north of caboolture but its not directly caused on or by the bruce highway.  Its mainly on the major roads that connect with the bruce highway.


We all know that rail has 5-6x more capacity than road, but that doesn't mean that 12000 people per hour are going to be using the rail line.   Public transport isn't the sole solution as not everyone is going to be better off using public transport.   

[Old Northern Road]

Is there really much economic cost to congestion on the bruce north of Caboolture?

Is it just happening on weekends? (in which case, you aren't really costing the economy valuable time) or does it happen weekday in the peak direction too?

Even on the weekends it's only really bad south of Caboolture as that is where all the Bribie Island day trippers join. North of that traffic may be moving slower than 100km/h but it is never really that bad.

I don't quite understand the logic of this thread. There isn't money to build CAMCOS so lets spend tens of billions of dollars building a highway that would require kilometres of bridges and attach a rail line to it.

[Stillwater]

It is the old problem -- through your traffic planning, direct all the traffic to the Bruce Highway because the federal government will meet 80 per cent of the cost of any augmentation VERSUS building the 'Donnybrook Road/Rail Solution', which the state government will have to fund 100 per cent.  Faced with funding 100 per cent of the cost of fixing something, the state will opt for the option where they need pay only 20 per cent.  Even 20 per cent of an inferior solution is better than 100 per cent of a superior solution.  Thus it is and, thus, is the Queensland thinking.

As to congestion on the Bruce, a billion dollar plan is about to kick in to put extra lane each way between the Caloundra and Maroochydore turn-offs.  Work will start in 2017.  Community is screaming for six lanes south of Caloundra turn-off to Caboolture, past the new City of Aura (50,000 people), which will fill those extra lanes with traffic anyway.  The Glenview development (15,000 people) will fill the lanes between Caloundra and Nambour turn-off.

[DJR96]

All good discussion folks.

It certainly highlights the flaws in current federal/state funding models. Will be working on the pollies on that one.

Ultimately it is kinda blue sky thinking. But often if the over-arching plans aren't considered we never get a good result.

[DJR96]

Update. Particularly at Stillwater.

I met briefly with the Federal Minister for Infrastructure and Transport, Darren Chester, yesterday to discuss the issue of Commonwealth/State funding models creating mega-corridors. And how funding supportive projects will help resolve issues of the National routes. ie. How the Donnybrook Hwy could be the better option than simply adding more lanes to the Bruce Hwy. And asked that he encourage the current Bruce Hwy upgrade study project to properly investigate alternative corridors such as the Donnybrook Hwy.

[Stillwater]

And what did Mr Chester say?

The feds don't design the road network, or the upgrades - the states do.

[DJR96]

I didn't expect him to be able to make any commitments, but he listened and Andrew Wallace will continue to push for improvements whichever way works out better.
So that was all I could really hope for and got.

[SteelPan]

What matters, is that any future major upgrades/new road projects to both GC andd SC include rail -to share the corridors and streamline transport to these regions!

Sadly...back at 1 William St....zzzzzzzz.......zzzzzzzzzz......zzzzzzzzzzz.........

[ozbob]

What matters, is that any future major upgrades/new road projects to both GC andd SC include rail -to share the corridors and streamline transport to these regions!

Sadly...back at 1 William St....zzzzzzzz.......zzzzzzzzzz......zzzzzzzzzzz.........

Good point.  Agree.

[Stillwater]

Check your pockets for urine, DJR96.  A DNA analysis will show it most probably is Mr Chester's.

[DJR96]

Wow, was that called for?

I at least have got off my arse and made the effort to actually meet with politicians, advocate for the common cause here, and you just slag off at me?  :conf

[Stillwater]

I don't denigrate the effort.  Pollies are imperfect people, gracious, but ineffectual most of the time.  That is the reality we confront - and should recognise.  At that point you start to consider 'how do we make them do what we desire?'

[#Metro]

Wow, was that called for?

I at least have got off my arse and made the effort to actually meet with politicians, advocate for the common cause here, and you just slag off at me? 

It is all good. I've had wet blankets put on some of my ideas too. 

Thanks for the effort! No harm in explorations.

[DJR96]

I'd appreciated a bit of support and positive activity over here:- https://www.facebook.com/Donnybrook-Highway-920942508075236/