Some muses ... Ipswich line variations

[ozbob]

Let us assume the line to Richlands is in place. The quad track between the CBD and Darra is in place and the 4th line between Darra and Corinda is electrified.  Indooroopilly station is long finished.

What is going happen with the time table?

Some thoughts.

All trains from and to Ipswich/Rosewood as applicable run express between Roma St, Toowong, Indooroopilly, Darra between 5.30am to 8pm.  These services utilise the main up and down lines.

During the hours 5.30am to 8pm a Darra to Darra service via Central, Exhibition runs every 20 minutes.  A Richlands to Richlands service  via Central and Exhibition runs every 20 minutes at all times.  These services utilise the up and down suburban lines. (This is similar to the Dandenong, Frankston pairing in Melbourne.  Dandenong all stations CBD Caulfield, Frankston Express Caulfield to CBD).


This would give all stations between Darra and the City a 10 minute service.  The longer runs in from Ipswich much quicker travelling times.  Manageable congestion.

The down side would be a few passengers would need to change at one of the key intermediate stations.  It would though give the capacity that would be needed and allow for more direct bus feeds from the western centenary suburbs.

Any thoughts?

[stephenk]

Let us assume the line to Richlands is in place. The quad track between the CBD and Darra is in place and the 4th line between Darra and Corinda is electrified.  Indooroopilly station is long finished.

What is going happen with the time table?

Some thoughts.

All trains from and to Ipswich/Rosewood as applicable run express between Roma St, Toowong, Indooroopilly, Darra between 5.30am to 8pm.  These services utilise the main up and down lines.

During the hours 5.30am to 8pm a Darra to Darra service via Central, Exhibition runs every 20 minutes.  A Richlands to Richlands service  via Central and Exhibition runs every 20 minutes at all times.  These services utilise the up and down suburban lines. (This is similar to the Dandenong, Frankston pairing in Melbourne.  Dandenong all stations CBD Caulfield, Frankston Express Caulfield to CBD).


This would give all stations between Darra and the City a 10 minute service.  The longer runs in from Ipswich much quicker travelling times.  Manageable congestion.

The down side would be a few passengers would need to change at one of the key intermediate stations.  It would though give the capacity that would be needed and allow for more direct bus feeds from the western centenary suburbs.

Any thoughts?

I'd drop the Exhibition loop bit for starters, as for every loop service you are taking trains away from the Caboolture/Shorncliffe Lines, and unlike in Melbourne there would be a conflicting movement for trains exiting the loop. Also reversing alternate trains at Darra would cause operational problems - Richlands should have sufficient reversing capacity to handle a train every 10mins.

Realistically, the main lines through the core section can handle approx 15tph/4 min frequency. Thus with 4 tracks between Corinda and Darra and sufficient trains, then I would run in the peak - Richlands to City (and beyond) all stations every 8 mins, Ipswich to City (and beyond) express from Darra to Roma St (stopping at key stations) every 8 mins. The initial provision of just a 3rd track through Oxley would limit the frequency between Corinda and Richlands to at least 10mins.

Off-peak has plenty of options, and personally I'm a fan of 15mins inner-suburban services. I think that the Ipswich and Caboolture Lines could generate sufficient traffic to support 15 min frequencies to their outer suburban termini.

[ozbob]

Thanks for comments.  All good.

Reversing trains at Darra is not a problem, done now regularly.  The new quad into Darra will be fully bi-directional signalling as well.  There is an extra platform being constructed at Darra.

The other alternative is run Darra (Richlands) to Shorncliffe.  I know QR are looking at using the Exhibition loop.  My guess is that it will end up being something like the Ekka loop service.  There is plenty of capacity and using as a turn back is well within the present capabilities.

Trains coming out of the loop use the high speed crossovers before Milton to go from mains to subs.  Not a problem at all and a routine train movement on the Ipswich line for almost every service at the moment, particularly with the main closed further out for the station and line works.  This is managed fine at the moment and when the mains are reopened it will actually be a lot easier.  There are some constraints with freight at the moment.  There are longer term plans to remove this from the city axis.  This will be probably necessary in time.

[stephenk]

Reversing trains at Darra is not a problem, done now regularly.  The new quad into Darra will be fully bi-directional signalling as well.  There is an extra platform being constructed at Darra.

Reversing at Darra is not a problem at present because trains can be reversed off the running lines - i.e. up and down Ipswich - City services can continue through whilst a train reverses. Once the Richlands extension is in place then the trains will have to be reversed on the running lines - i.e. up or down Richlands-City services will be blocked by a reversing train.  Thus is makes sense to reverse at Richlands rather than Darra - which as long as it is given a double crossover would have no problems reversing the required number of trains.

The other alternative is run Darra (Richlands) to Shorncliffe.

That makes sense for off-peak services. The only issue I see is that it might be a push operating a 15min service to Shorncliffe with the current track layout.

Trains coming out of the loop use the high speed crossovers before Milton to go from mains to subs. 

They have already come out of the loop by then! Coming out of the loop at Roma Street the trains have to cross the down main. There are already a lot of conflicting movements at Roma Street (e.g. Ferny Grove to Roma Street has to cross the up suburban, and up and down main to access the Exhibition Loop to get back to Mayne. More conflicting moves would increase the risk of causing delays, or making delays worse.

Given QR's failure to run a evenly spaced Ekka service this year (even after bumping the Ferny Grove and Shorncliffe services to the suburban lines off-peak), doesn't bode well for regularly running services through the loop. The constraints of the infrastructure means that running trains via the loop causes more problems than benefits.

[ozbob]

Thanks for your comments Stephen.  It is good to do these exercises to tease out some innovations.

Anyone want to have a crack at the northern line?  Using perhaps the Shorncliffe line as the all stations. Others long haul express from Northgate?

Regards
Bob

[stephenk]

Thanks for your comments Stephen.  It is good to do these exercises to tease out some innovations.

Anyone want to have a crack at the northern line?  Using perhaps the Shorncliffe line as the all stations. Others long haul express from Northgate?

Regards
Bob

The northern lines are bit more complicated in the peaks due to 4 tracks, turning into 3 tracks, turning into 2. There are also freight trains to contend with and Sunshine Coast expresses (with 17min faster run time between Bowen Hills and Caboolture), plus the 5pm Tilt Train.

It would make some sense to run Caboolture Line trains express from Bowen Hills to Northgate and having Shorncliffe all stations off-peak. However to maintain 15 min off-peak frequencies to Northgate (as at present) then you would have to run 15 min frequencies on the Shorncliffe Line. This would only allow max 10 mins reversing time at Shorncliffe off-peak which is cutting it a bit short for delay recovery. (There is a 5 min reversal timetabled in the evening peak at present although it returns empty).

So maybe off-peak:-
15 mins Ipswich - Caboolture (express Darra to Roma St, Bowen Hills to Northgate except key stations)
15 mins Richlands - Shorncliffe/Sandgate (all stations)
This would result in 15mins to almost everywhere service
or
20 mins Ipswich - Caboolture (all stations)
20 mins Richlands - Shorncliffe (all stations)
This would result in a 10min inner-suburban "metro" frequency Darra to Northgate, and 20min outer-suburban frequency allowing for more delay recovery at termini. 

[Arnz]

Thanks for your comments Stephen.  It is good to do these exercises to tease out some innovations.

Anyone want to have a crack at the northern line?  Using perhaps the Shorncliffe line as the all stations. Others long haul express from Northgate?

Regards
Bob

The northern lines are bit more complicated in the peaks due to 4 tracks, turning into 3 tracks, turning into 2. There are also freight trains to contend with and Sunshine Coast expresses (with 17min faster run time between Bowen Hills and Caboolture), plus the 5pm Tilt Train.

It would make some sense to run Caboolture Line trains express from Bowen Hills to Northgate and having Shorncliffe all stations off-peak. However to maintain 15 min off-peak frequencies to Northgate (as at present) then you would have to run 15 min frequencies on the Shorncliffe Line. This would only allow max 10 mins reversing time at Shorncliffe off-peak which is cutting it a bit short for delay recovery. (There is a 5 min reversal timetabled in the evening peak at present although it returns empty).

So maybe off-peak:-
15 mins Ipswich - Caboolture (express Darra to Roma St, Bowen Hills to Northgate except key stations)
15 mins Richlands - Shorncliffe/Sandgate (all stations)
This would result in 15mins to almost everywhere service
or
20 mins Ipswich - Caboolture (all stations)
20 mins Richlands - Shorncliffe (all stations)
This would result in a 10min inner-suburban "metro" frequency Darra to Northgate, and 20min outer-suburban frequency allowing for more delay recovery at termini. 

15 mins to Shorncliffe in off-peak seems to be a bit of a overkill imo, from what I've seen during afternoon travels on a Friday (early finish), it seems to be never any more than 30-40 people spread out in a 6-car set.  But I agree with the express running on the Ipswich Line, but when resources permit extend every Cleveland train to Doomben to form a 30 min Doomben service, hence allowing Caboolture trains to run Bowen Hills to Eagle Junction.

Also to further add, capacity issues between Petrie and Caboolture.  This is when you take in the Freights, Nambour/Gympie North (Sunshine Coast) interurban expresses, Long Distance and the 5pm tilt service.

So my suggestion would be.

30 min Ipswich to Caboolture all stations
30 min Richlands to Shorncliffe All Stations
-15 min Darra to Northgate by overlapping on that section-

30 min Ipswich to Caboolture express (Weekday off-peak only):- Darra to Roma St, stopping Corinda, then express Bowen Hills to Northgate, stopping Eagle Junction (3-car set off-peak)
-15 min Ipswich to Darra, then 15 mins between Northgate and Caboolture.  This requires timetable co-ordination between All-stations and Expresses to match the frequencies on those sections.  May require stagnate/fat time thrown in at Roma Street.

[ozbob]

Thanks for your comments Arnz and Stephen. Very useful to put into the melting pot.

Any more folks?

[stephenk]

15 mins to Shorncliffe in off-peak seems to be a bit of a overkill imo, from what I've seen during afternoon travels on a Friday (early finish), it seems to be never any more than 30-40 people spread out in a 6-car set.  But I agree with the express running on the Ipswich Line, but when resources permit extend every Cleveland train to Doomben to form a 30 min Doomben service, hence allowing Caboolture trains to run Bowen Hills to Eagle Junction.

15 mins to Shorncliffe may appear like overkill. However to make public transport more attractive the frequencies have to be improved to 15 min (4tph). It would not surprise me that if the service improvements are well promoted that there could be patronage increases of around 100%. A good example of how improving frequency increases patronage, is when Croydon Tramlink replaced a 45 min rail service (Wimbledon - West Croydon) with a 12 min tram service, the patronage increased by 800% (over a 7 year period). It should be noted that Melbourne provides 15 to 20 min off-peak frequencies on most lines, and Perth offers 15 min off-peak frequencies on most lines (in fact 7-8 min frequencies (8tph) are run Mon-Fri off-peak on the Joondalup and Mandurah Lines!).

As for the Doomben Line, I don't know if the currently rather variable service is due to QR being lazy, or due to freight trains requiring the single track. Certainly with the poor frequency, it's no surprise that few people use the Doomben Line. Options include running a regular 30 mins off-peak service (if possible), or replace the line with a frequent 15min frequency "Buz" bus service connecting with Caboolture/Shorncliffe services.

[Derwan]

I'm on the Shorncliffe line and although we don't feature in the list of overcrowded lines, I can say that around 95% of the peak-period trains I catch are overcrowded.  I travel from Boondall (more than 20 minutes from the city) and there are generally always people standing all the way.  It is likely that other peak-period trains aren't as overcrowded - which would be why we didn't feature on the list.  (Either that or the people doing the counting didn't catch the trains that I catch!)

Apart from a couple of extra services, the Shorncliffe line doesn't even have 15-minute services during peak periods.  I believe many people on the Shorncliffe line drive to Northgate to take advantage of more frequent services.  (I do this on the weekends.)  If higher frequency services were provided, people would be more inclined to catch a train from their nearest station, reducing traffic on busy Sandgate Rd and alleviating the parking issues in the streets around Northgate Station.

Shorncliffe only has one platform.  For higher-frequency services, we ideally need an additional platform at Shorncliffe and the duplication of the short run between Sandgate and Shorncliffe stations.  Given current so-called "statistics", I cannot see this happening in the near future.

[Emmie]

Certainly if there are more services to Shorncliffe/Sandgate, more people will use the line - especially if the bus links from Brackenridge and Brighton are increased at the same time.  And it would make sense if the Shorncliffe line was all-stations, with Cabooture line express to Eagle Junction and Northgate.

But in planning a 10-15 minutes service past Northgate, there will be problems ahead with the level crossings involved - at Banyo particularly, but also at Deagon, Sandgate and Curlew St, Shorncliffe (which is particularly dangerous, as it only has lights but not gates - and is used by everyone parking at the Sandgate station).

Emmie

[kw]

Maybe 10-15 minute services on the Shorncliffe line could well happen, but don't hold your breath. Sandgate - Shorncliffe duplication. I found this on page 18 in the Transport section of the 'SEQ Infrastructure Plan & Program 2008-2026'.

Link - http://www.dip.qld.gov.au/resources/plan/SEQIPP/SEQIPP_partb_transport.pdf



- Kent Wagner

[Derwan]

Sandgate - Shorncliffe duplication. I found this on page 18 in the Transport section of the 'SEQ Infrastructure Plan & Program 2008-2026'.

Hmmm... so around 2020 to 2025.  I think this is a category used for stuff that "might" be needed one day depending on patronage and funding availability.  The Redcliffe line sits in the same category.