TVMs Central Pedestrian Underpass - going

[ozbob]

June 22 the TVMs in the pedestrian underpass at Central Station are going.

These have been very convenient for many commuters  ...  now more folks are using the go card.
No doubt many will find this inconvenient and will be caught out. The signs suggest no new AVVMs are replacing them.



Photograph R Dow 16 June 2008

[Mozz]

Holy sprint before you run before you walk batman - Can we just slow down a bit on the removal (or wind back) of infrastructure and staffing which provide services to public transport commuters until there is tangible proof that the GoCard rollout across public transport is mostly complete and successful.

I suspect that there may be operational plans which support the winding back of surburban train station staff operational hours and the removal of Ticket Vending Machines as based on advice from Translink the GoCard rollout would be pretty much completed a couple of years ago.

But the reality is that this is not the case - IIRC only 10,000 of a possible 160,000 journey's each day are currently being recorded against GoCard users. This is far from what any reasonable person would call "yep gocard is fully rolled out, in full production and move on, nothing more to see here".

As a regular commuter through Central station I suggest there will be gridlock of 5-10-15 minutes for commuters just trying to exit the station once most people are using the GoCard - but let's just wait and see how this is handled.

Stop winding back suburban train station staff ticket window hours. Stop removing machines that provide tickets to public transport commuters. Make decisions based on the here and now which is in reality that the GoCard has a way to go before there are a majority of public transport commuters using it rather than alternative ticketing.

[Derwan]

Reading between the lines on the sign, I don't think they will be replaced with AVVM's.

There's probably not much point in complaining - because they'll respond with, "Use a go card."  Reducing the number of ticket machines is another way to push people towards the Go Card.

I agree with Mozz though - they really need to slow down on the removal of infrastructure and concentrate on getting the Go Card working with a fair fare structure.  Only then will people be okay with the removal of some machines/services as they'll be happy to use the Go Card.

[GOody]

So who are buying these old machines?

I know Translink is itching to get arid of the old bus infrastructure to sell to Victoria (or was it NSW?) to support their current system , I just wonder if these machines are also destined for the same home.

Actually, thinking about it, the machines at rail stations and on trams in Victoria are pretty similar. Maybe that is where they are destined for!

[ozbob]

The old ticket machines from the buses have been promised (sold already essentially) to Sydney GOody.
Melbourne has its own smart card dramas with myki (see http://backontrack.org/mbs/index.php?topic=655.0 )

I suppose there is pressure then to give them machines down south.

I guess we are all a bit concerned that there are apparently still issues with the GO on the buses.
Yesterday, some work colleagues spoke to me. They do a combination of bus and rail daily travel.  They will not use the Go card, they use weeklies as they simply have found the Go card to be too unreliable for their purposes.  Getting hold of weeklies can be difficult for some folks, and with the old TVMs just about finished it is apparent that there is pressure to change peoples habits. But, unless the new product is reliable there will be consumer resistance.

The Go card promises so much, why does the Government apparently not accept the fact that the issues are still ongoing?  'Teething problems' as oft quoted from above - these are no longer teething problems, it has reached the stage of wisdom teeth extraction without any local/general anaesthetics!  It hurts!!!

There has been no Ministerial Statements on Transport matters for weeks.  What is going on??

[ozbob]

Called into Central on the way home, bank of six AVVMs now where the old TVMs were on the concourse.

No doubt for when the subway TVMs go this weekend. 

[Derwan]

Called into Central on the way home, bank of six AVVMs now where the old TVMs were on the concourse.

For a while there was a mix of AVVM's and TVM's on the concourse.  There were still line-ups during peak periods.

Perhaps they didn't want to run cabling for the AVVM's down to the subway?  Perhaps they've done the numbers and discovered that it's actually not worth the cost?

I think it's actually strange that so many people purchase tickets when heading home.  I would seem more logical (to me) to buy a daily in the morning, a weekly if they're full time or a Go Card.

(Actually a Go Card may not be logical at the moment.)

[GOody]

I think it's actually strange that so many people purchase tickets when heading home.  I would seem more logical (to me) to buy a daily in the morning, a weekly if they're full time or a Go Card.

There are many train travel patterns that start in the city. Some examples - A worker who catches a bus into work each day (on a 10 trip ticket), but then goes out shopping, or to a friends place after work (via train).
A large number of people now live in the city and surrounding suburbs.
And, some people don't know their daily patterns until the last minute - so aren't going to buy a weekly ticket, or a return type ticket because they're not sure if they will work late, get a lift home, taxi instead etc.

[GOody]

Walked through the Central station (main) concourse today. It appears that all of the old style ticket machines have been removed and replaced with new style TVM's. The techs were there connecting them when I walked past. So it's not just the pedestrian underpass that is having the old TVM's removed.

[ozbob]

Thanks for the update GOody.  I think most of the TVMs are now gone or decommissioned on the network generally.

The old TVMs were generally maintained by station staff.  The new AVVMs seem to be maintained by Chubb (through Translink).  This means that the new machines when they run out of change or paper etc. cannot be brought back into service immediately as was the case with the TVMs.  This may also be a pointer to a plan to progressively reduce station staff.  This has been denied before (see --> http://backontrack.org/mbs/index.php?topic=257.0 ), but we are already seeing cutback in hours at many stations. This is not acceptable. Melbourne is putting station staff back, as the many issues that non attended stations cause are simply not worth it it terms of the overall operation of the network.

This leads me to wonder why at Roma St, main train exit, adjacent to the entrances to the bus platforms we only have one AVVM there?  If that runs out of paper or whatever, the punters must join the lengthy queue at the understaffed ticket window.  The location of that AVVM is also in the midst of the busy passenger thoroughfare.  There would be a case for relocating that AVVM and putting in another against the wall, out of the way of the main walkway.

[Derwan]

Walked through the underpass today.  The TVM's have had bin-liners put over them.  I wonder if they'll put any AVVM's there - even just one to replace the 3 TVM's.  I guess we'll have to wait and see.

[ozbob]

A further observation.  The AVVM at Oxley this morning was not accepting notes (25 June 2008).  I attempted to purchase a ticket for a family member.  The station staff said that when there are issues with the AVVM support is automatically notified but response time can be very slow.  It depends on how much is going on I suppose.  The old TVMs were able to be serviced by station staff.  Not looking good is it??

Cheers
Bob

[dwb]

It is also annoying bc it takes significantly longer to purchase a paper ticket via the new machines than the old ones cos the interface is so badly designed and the touch screens sometimes get all annoying.

I've also stood at one before attempting three of four times to buy a daily ticket on a weekend and had the transaction cancelled cos I should have asked for an off peak... you'd think it would just automatically change to off peak or at the very least tell me that I need to select off peak, not just mysteriously cancel the transaction and send me back to the beginning after rudely beeping at me!

[GOody]

It is also annoying bc it takes significantly longer to purchase a paper ticket via the new machines than the old ones cos the interface is so badly designed and the touch screens sometimes get all annoying.

So true. I was going to post this last night. It takes 4-5x as long due to the interface and various issues around it. The Off-Peak/Peak issue is just one. Try inserting a heap of coins. It will cancel the transaction, then refund you the coins in higher denominations for you to try again! The interface is kludgy and not really designed correctly. More delays for commuters. The funny thing is that it's been around for a year. I sent the following email to a friend 11 Jun 2007:

Today is a public holiday, so "Off-Peak daily" tickets are applicable.

Walk up to machine. Select "Daily ticket", Select station (complicated scroll through process or try and hit the right station on a map). Then it error's out and says that Daily isn't available, only Off-Peak daily due to holiday.

Machine goes back to start.

Try again. Select Off-Peak. Scroll through stations and choose the right one. Asked for money.

So I start piling in my 10c/20c etc collection. Machine decides with 10c to go that I've inserted too many coins or took too long or whatever and blocks the coin entry chute.

Hit the cancel button. Coins are nicely turned into gold/20c pieces and returned

[dwb]

So true Goody, but I actually like it returning higher denomination coins - this is the same with many types of vending machines, a good way to get rid of that change in your pocket!

Here's an email I sent a while back, as you can see in Sept 06 and still nothing has been changed!! I also included this in one of the letters I wrote to the Minister in Feb this year:

to      smartcard.pilot@brisbane.cbr.com.au
date      Mon, Sep 25, 2006 at 1:17 PM
subject   smart card pilot
mailed-by   gmail.com 9/25/06

Hi,

I don't live in the Redcliffe area and as such cannot participate in the pilot, however I just wanted to provide two pieces of feedback from when I played with the smart card ticket machine at Roma Street Station.

Firstly, when purchasing a paper ticket there didn't appear to be a "cancel all" button and instead to get back to the main screen if a change of mind occured (for instance you realised you wanted a single rather than daily but had already navigated to station list) you have to hit cancel, cancel, cancel to go back.

Secondly, to choose the destination it seemed that you had to navigate with the map or the names to find the station, but here is a question, why make it so hard, many people know what zone they need the ticket to, especially customers who get the bus (like me) - the interface should treat bus and train passengers the same.  When i get the bus I hop on and say "concession, daily, zone 1-2 please" it would be much easier if each of these pieces of information were collected on progressive screens in the interface.

Ultimately I realise the main aim of the machines is not to provide paper tickets however I believe customers will be more likely to want to get a smart card if the machines are easy to use (even for paper tickets).

Also, I have noticed the progressive installation of machines at rail stations, but I haven't noticed any at the busway stations, will these stations have machines installed???  It is important the system doesn't ignore bus users.

I hope this is of some help.

[Derwan]

As well as "By Map" and "By Name", there should be "City" button.  This would skip the next step(s) and would make it very easy for the casual users who occasionally head to the city or South Bank.

Unfortunately selecting by zone wouldn't work - as it has to calculate the zones travelled through from the origin.  For example, if I were to punch in "Zone 3" at Boondall, it would only charge me a 3-3 ticket - but I might be wanting to travel to zone 3 on the south side, which requires a 1-3 ticket.

[dwb]

Derwan, yes that is a great idea to have a short cut, perhaps even on the first screen that says Return Daily ticket from this station to City (the following screen could then ask for adult or concession)... therefore a large proportion of users would only have two touches to get their ticket - even less than the old TVMs.

"By zone" could simply ask two questions rather than assuming you are starting (and finishing) at your current location.

eg Please indicate the zones in which you need to travel
(simply selecting the highest and lowest zones in which you will be travelling):
1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9-10-11-12-13-14-15-16-17-18-19-20-21-22-23

Presumably a check routine could then determine whether the station you currently are at is within the zones you have selected.  For instance, on the old TVMs (and the current ones), if I'm at zone 3 wanting to travel out to zone 4 but then in to zone 1 under a daily ticket passengers would be required to go to the ticket window because the machine assumes that I am only travelling further out or further in and not a combination of the two, under this proposal all scenarios would be covered.

You also have to keep in mind, as per my previous post, that the ATVMs have to be able to be used by bus passengers and as such the map interface (which is already clumbsy) is far too inadequate.

[Derwan]

I thought of something similar for the zone selection thing - but imagine someone without an understanding of our zones trying to work it out.  Perhaps an explanation, "If you know which zones you will travel through, you can select them here."

While to some respect AVVM's would be handy for bus travellers, if the Go Card was made attractive enough, regular travellers would use the Go Card and only the casual users would need a ticket, which could be purchased from the bus driver.