New rail timetables need new bus connections

[achiruel]

(1) CFN Garden City-Coopers Plains
(2) Increase frequency 369 (and add add some night services!)
(3) Steam iron 322, terminate at Toombul and increase frequency

Thoughts?

[techblitz]

hi achruel

word at the new depot is that they have carefully planned all western region routes to factor in minimal d/running to and from tradecoast.... so while increasing the 369 would be good in principal....BT probably woudnt be interested.
I would support some later services but as for increased freq. Its been tried and tested and FAILED. Even with the good numbers between toombul and dfo both TL and BT decided to either can or reduce the route. I always find myself mentioning that this is virtually the exact route of the (former)  hourly 358. Rbot members have previously stated that the 375 is swallowing up some 369 numbers as well. It performs decently around school hours but only small numbers at other times.

Lets also remember that increased 369 must be taken with caution as its passing some of the busiest intersections in Brisbane eg: south pine/Stafford rds/gympie rd/sandgate rd. If this route carries air for the amount of idling it does at intersections...imo its not worth the upgrade.

[#Metro]

I have been on 369 recently and it is doing very well now. I have proof too: (this is in the OFF peak).

[STB]

I wouldn't call that doing well, I'd call that below average.  And heck, that's only one trip, what about the rest .

[#Metro]

I do believe 7 is the minimum no?
And this was OFF peak as well.

Look, anyone can go and ride that bus and see for themselves. Sure you could delete the bus entirely and then what? How are people going to get across from one side of the city to the other? Go to the CBD and then go back out again??

[STB]

I do believe 7 is the minimum no?
And this was OFF peak as well.

Look, anyone can go and ride that bus and see for themselves. Sure you could delete the bus entirely and then what? How are people going to get across from one side of the city to the other? Go to the CBD and then go back out again??

I don't think it needs to be deleted, but I don't think it needs to be upgraded either.  It's been tested at a high frequency and it didn't capture the patronage.  No need to revisit this unless things improve to what you've shown above.

[James]

If we could do whatever we wanted, here are my top 3:
1. We have 15 minutes to Cannon Hill, start up a feeder from Manly/Wynnum to Cannon Hill via Wynnum Road. Medium term, aim to extend 15 minute frequency to Manly and feed to the stations there.
2. Bulimba feeder bus to Morningside. Given Quirk's irrational hate of anything that enters Bulimba (aka the Cr Shayne Sutton Effect), the idea of forcing residents there to change may actually appeal to him.
3. Boost frequency of Ferny Grove line feeder buses.

However, I anticipate BCC to totally ignore the fact rail timetables are changing, and instead continue to play stupid with the residents of Brisbane. I'd much rather see most 400 series routes terminated at a railway station - such changes would be the simplest to implement, especially for routes like the 430 and 435.

I wouldn't call that doing well, I'd call that below average.  And heck, that's only one trip, what about the rest .

STB, that bus isn't doing too bad. Yeah, its not great, but it's pretty good given that it competes with other routes the whole way along. And not to mention it probably surpasses pax average pax numbers on numerous northside routes (311, 312, 313, 314, 326, 327, 338, 361, 354, do I need to go on?)

I disagree with the 369 no longer going Toombul - DFO. If anything, in peak it may have been an idea to bypass Toombul and go straight to Eagle Junction. Now pax need to double change to go from a northside destination to the DFO (330/333/340 -> 369 -> 590). I liked the 369 in its original form as it allowed that direct EJ connection which I found very useful - only meant a double change for myself (411/428 -> rail -> 369).

HF may have been overkill, but the current way isn't as useful.

[techblitz]

I do believe 7 is the minimum no?
And this was OFF peak as well.

Look, anyone can go and ride that bus and see for themselves. Sure you could delete the bus entirely and then what? How are people going to get across from one side of the city to the other? Go to the CBD and then go back out again??

I don't think it needs to be deleted, but I don't think it needs to be upgraded either.  It's been tested at a high frequency and it didn't capture the patronage.  No need to revisit this unless things improve to what you've shown above.

thanks stb

FROM TL

369 Low  Low
This route will be replaced by a combination of new services. Passengers along the Mitchelton Station to Toombul alignment will have access to secondary network routes #201 MITCHELTON TO TOOMBUL and #201A MITCHELTON TO PINKENBA (with the exception of around Kedron Brook Station). Passengers between Toombul and DFO will have access to secondary routes #203 MITCHELTON TO 1 AIRPORT DRIVE and #305 TOOMBUL TO GARDEN CITY.

Notice the word `secondary' in there. BT and TL both decided to remove this from High frequency status.
Right decision...move on...

[achiruel]

Of course when that was written the sector 2 rail timetables hadn't been released yet.

No one interested in linking Beenleigh line and Garden City or  Chermside and Toombul?

[techblitz]

Of course when that was written the sector 2 rail timetables hadn't been released yet.

No one interested in linking Beenleigh line and Garden City or  Chermside and Toombul?

patronage should grow naturally for the 369 once sector 2 comes in.

I really like Salisbury as an interchange station due to its ultra-quick connection to the Ipswich line as well

the anti bus connection design of coopers plains and Salisbury stations is an issue. Either one of these needs to be upgraded to facilitate easier interchange
I just don't get it with coopers plains in that they chose to make it more user friendly for vehicles instead of buses....
Salisbury is a key station as its a gateway so to speak to beudesert rd,sherwood rd,nathan campus,riawena rd.
Salisbury station is in bad need of not only a better car park but DDA upgrade as well.

Salisbury is my pick for the cross-town station.

[Cam]

Salisbury is my pick for the cross-town station.

In the medium term, I agree that Salisbury should be the bus/rail interchange. The Queensland Government has stated that Nyanda State High School is to close at the end of the year. This mostly elevated 5+ hectare site has nice views to the south & west at ground level as well as being adjacent to the Beenleigh Line & a few hundred metres from Salisbury station.

I expect this site to be sold to a developer for a mixed use development i.e. retail & residential units. The site could potentially house more than 1000 people - depending on how high BCC will allow unit blocks to be built. There may also be some Civil Aviation Authority restriction due to the proximity of Archerfield Airport. 

There is the possibility of a TOD if a new station was built adjacent to the site – possibly even underneath another block of units/retail centre. A bus interchange could also be built.

If such a development were to go ahead, this would be the obvious spot for a rail/bus interchange with connections to nearby Griffith University & QE II Hospital as well as Garden City & Indooroopilly. The station would also be the junction station for future rail passenger services to Flagstone.

[ozbob]

Salisbury October 2012 --> http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=9191.msg111262#msg111262

[James]

Of course when that was written the sector 2 rail timetables hadn't been released yet.

No one interested in linking Beenleigh line and Garden City or  Chermside and Toombul?

Beenleigh Line and Garden City: 150 BUZ + infrequent rail, infrequent routes + rail at Altandi, or 130/140 + 111/160/555. I would not rate this as a huge issue.

Chermside and Toombul: Re-upgrade the 308, so it forms 15-minute frequency to Chermside with the GCL.

What I think is the big missing link is a decent link between the Ipswich and Beenleigh lines - in fact, I addressed this in my own review (see signature link). While I hadn't costed this as part of the review, I thought it would be a good idea to have a bus (frequent even?) going from Corinda to Coopers Plains via Sherwood Road. Now the Beenleigh line destination is a bit redundant now due to the removal of express services, so I'd be inclined to send it to somewhere like Moorooka (100 BUZ + frequent rail) or Yeerongpilly (traditional connecting place of the 104).

I've never really used the Salisbury connection mostly because I hear horror stories about GCL reliability/timetabling, and in the end means it becomes much quicker for me to go St Lucia -> UQ CP -> UQ Lakes -> Garden City with routes like the 169. I think if you improved interchange facilities at Salisbury you could make it a lot more attractive, though.

In an ideal world, I would like to see the GCL given CFN standard (15 minutes 7am - 7pm, 30 minutes 6am - 9pm) and split up into parts. However, I don't see this happening until we move towards a more connective network. Right now, you'll incur more transfer penalties travelling from Kenmore on the 430 onto the 100 going via the GCL or other radial routes vs. just going via the CBD.

[techblitz]

this might have slipped everyones notice but there is a nifty little connection from garden city to the soon to be gold coast expresses
(10 minutes Garden City to altandi) Provided its timetabled correctly..this connection will then take the cake as the fastest way to get from garden city to the gold coast/Loganlea/Beenleigh.
Route 132 

@cam
yep I would say that ex-school development will go ahead..some retail would be good.
Even good ol  TLink had Salisbury station earmarked for a frequent route in their review.

@james
I would just be happy with current GCL frequency for the cross-town route but operating on sundays as well. These ideas have been discussed before where someone also put in a proposal for coopers plains to darra,then cirrent GCL Salisbury to Sherwood & 104 yerongpilly to Corinda. All good ideas for a crosstown but a case of which one would serve the best purpose...

[James]

@james
I would just be happy with current GCL frequency for the cross-town route but operating on sundays as well. These ideas have been discussed before where someone also put in a proposal for coopers plains to darra,then cirrent GCL Salisbury to Sherwood & 104 yerongpilly to Corinda. All good ideas for a crosstown but a case of which one would serve the best purpose...

The issue with the GCL's frequency is that it does not encourage cross-town connections. Admittedly this is very much a 'chicken-or-the-egg' scenario. There isn't the demand for a frequent GCL because we don't have a connective network because a connective network is best served by routes which are frequent like the GCL.

As much as I considered a Coopers Plains - Darra link in my own review, I looked at the best routing of it, and it would only serve the purpose as a connector and nothing more. The best routing goes through a bit of suburbia, then off via the motorway (i.e. picking up no passengers) to Coopers Plains, with the only real opportunity to add additional stops being in Industrial areas (which aren't good pax generators). You could say the same for a Goodna - Loganlea service. Yay, look at how much time it saves! But the big question is, is there really the demand for a half-hourly bus service from Goodna to Loganlea via the M2/M6 (ultimately to connect with GC trains)?

This ultimately comes back to the question of whether a route is for coverage or patronage. Coverage routes don't go via motorways, and the disabled really are better off simply transferring in the CBD. Patronage routes need to generate patronage (obvious statement), and if the demand isn't there (which it likely isn't), there's no point in running the route.

A Corinda - Coopers Plains link nicely covers Sherwood Road and allows pax to be picked up from there, yet is still quite fast. It also isn't too long either. A link from Corinda to Moorooka is about 5km long, would take 12 minutes to run, and could use dead-running Sherwood depot movements.

I liked what was proposed in the bus review because if you only keep the 104 through Tennyson, it gives the people east of Oxley Road a pretty crap service.