Congestion tolling - discussion etc.

[Stillwater]

Vehicles have to be registered - how else would the police/bystanders get the number of the bank heist getaway car?  If you have a registered car, u need a bank of public servants to administer number plates etc, office space and a computer system.  That needs $$$$, so government charges $$$.  If you didn't have a drivers licence, you would need a 'government identity/citizenship card'.  See above re $$$.

[Gazza]

I think what tramtrain was getting at is that instead of everyone paying the same amount for a licence, and rego fees being based around engine size or whatever, you'd perhaps just set a small Rego fee enough to cover plates and the cost of paperwork, but then make everyone pay per km driven...So people who use their car more pay more.

Hmm, interesting proposal, but I imagine those in remote areas would kick up a stink since they would end up paying the most, but have the poorest roads and no alternatives.

[Golliwog]

But it also comes back to, how do you tell how far Joe Blow has driven? Is it by toll tags like what the Clem 7 and Gateway use in which case, how do you do this outside SEQ? Or are we putting a little GPS tracker in each car and using that? Bring on the Big Brother complaints. Or 3rdly is it something where you bring your car in once a year and they read the speedometer? Less intrusive but I can see people getting interested in rewinding the speedometer to avoid paying.

[Stillwater]

Is it not a case that the further you drive, the more petrol your vehicle consumes and the more excise you pay?  The issue is that the fuel excise is paid to the federal government's 'consolidated revenue' (the pot of money from which all government services are funded).  It is not hypothecated [yes, horrible word], or tied, to a particular revenue stream.  There would be a case for hypothecating fuel excise, or part thereof, to PT.  In other words, motorists would pay, through the fuel pump, for PT improvements (no roads).

[#Metro]

Is it not a case that the further you drive, the more petrol your vehicle consumes and the more excise you pay?  The issue is that the fuel excise is paid to the federal government's 'consolidated revenue' (the pot of money from which all government services are funded).  It is not hypothecated [yes, horrible word], or tied, to a particular revenue stream.  There would be a case for hypothecating fuel excise, or part thereof, to PT.  In other words, motorists would pay, through the fuel pump, for PT improvements (no roads).

Stillwater, this is correct, but you see petrol fuelling cars is now living on borrowed time. And Ken Henry, former tax adviser to the gov't knows it. Price rises continue, which makes things like electric cars and hybrid cars more viable. Cars might no longer run on petrol.

So that entire income stream from almost all Australians who use petrol (which is almost everyone) will evaporate.

Gazza makes a point, people who live far will probably pay more. But isn't this the purpose of the scheme, and what happens now anyway when you fill up your tank? A person who drives more also pays more simply because they use more fuel.

[ozbob]

http://johnquiggin.com/2013/02/28/ppps-take-a-long-time-to-die/

PPPs take a long time to die

February 28th, 2013 John Quiggin

In the immediate aftermath of the GFC, I argued that the Public Private Partnerships model then in vogue was broken beyond repair, and that, even after the crisis we would be unlikely to see many more, though we might see deals wrapped up to look like PPPs, but with the public bearing most of the risk.

The recent failure of BrisConnections, the owners of the Airport Link Tunnel in Brisbane was no surprise. The AirportLink deal was one of the last pre-crisis PPPs, when investors were still optimistic enough to buy shares based on absurdly overstated traffic flows. In fact, they bought "partly paid" shares, a startling piece of financial engineering under which shares, trading at virtually zero, carried with them the obligation to come up with a payment of $2/share later on.

Because of the eagerness of private investors, the Queensland government bore little risk in the project. Former Treasurer Andrew Fraser's description of the project as "a zinger of a deal for the public" displayed his customary tact, but was accurate enough considering the deal in isolation. The problem is that, after this and similar failures, it is highly unlikely that the pre-2008 PPP model can be revived in Australia.

For roads at least, there's a simple alternative – road pricing based on congestion. I and other economists have been banging this drum for years, but politicians are terrified of even mentioning the idea. At one level, I can understand this – it's tricky and likely to be controversial – but Queensland governments of both parties have adopted politically suicidal policies, largely motivated by the perception that they will free funds for capital investment.

First, Anna Bligh, along with Andrew Fraser reduced Labor to a seven-member rump with her pursuit of economically disastrous asset sales, exactly the opposite of what she had promised. Now, Campbell Newman has dissipated a huge volume of goodwill with savage cuts to public services, again a wholesale breach of promise, and is now pursuing privatisation. Compared to these electorally suicidal policies, road pricing ought to be a doddle.

[Stillwater]

We accept the notion of mining companies that make 'super profits' in boom times an additional sum by way of a 'super profits tax' to government in payment to the Australian people for the one-off use of minerals they rip from the ground.

Similarly, we should accept that the notion that motorists who make 'super use' of a road such that additional lanes must be added, or it must become a freeway, the 'super use tax' should apply (ie, a congestion tax).  Just as we propose off-peak concessions on PT, a variable tax, by the time of day that you use your car on the freeway, should apply.

[SurfRail]

We accept the notion of mining companies that make 'super profits' in boom times an additional sum by way of a 'super profits tax' to government in payment to the Australian people for the one-off use of minerals they rip from the ground.

Similarly, we should accept that the notion that motorists who make 'super use' of a road such that additional lanes must be added, or it must become a freeway, the 'super use tax' should apply (ie, a congestion tax).  Just as we propose off-peak concessions on PT, a variable tax, by the time of day that you use your car on the freeway, should apply.

Not only that but it should be used to partially get rid of the fixed annual type charges people currently have to pay, to reward them for placing less stress on the roads.

[#Metro]

I think congestion tolling would reduce road demand during peak hour - as it does with PT, but it will increase PT demand during peak hour, which will cause a huge nightmare as there isn't capacity during peak hour and also peak capacity expansion during peak hour is hugely costly. There is a large lead time for big ticket infrastructure projects of at least 5 - 10 years (planning work, politics, resident consultations, actually buying the concrete) and so in the short term, the response would be to also increase ticket prices on PT to limit demand as well - which makes me think that it will be leading us back to square one because people care about relative pricing, at least in the short to medium term.

[Golliwog]

What about the SEQ Bus Review and the Stage 2 train timetable review? These are both providing more capacity in peak. IIRC, Stage 1 also left slots free for when extra trains are available/needed on the IPS-CAB corridor as well.

[HappyTrainGuy]

Yep. There are spaces in the timetable for Kippa Ring-Springfield services along with spaces for exhibition loop services.

[somebody]

There isn't enough rolling stock for more services.  It's a zero sum game.

[Golliwog]

There isn't enough rolling stock for more services.  It's a zero sum game.

I don't know about on other lines, but I know there's a number of inefficient uses of rolling stock on the FG line during peak. This includes the expresses/Mitchelton starters, but also the fact the timetable is still based around trains not being able to pass between FG and Keperra.

[somebody]

There isn't enough rolling stock for more services.  It's a zero sum game.

I don't know about on other lines, but I know there's a number of inefficient uses of rolling stock on the FG line during peak. This includes the expresses/Mitchelton starters, but also the fact the timetable is still based around trains not being able to pass between FG and Keperra.

I would be very surprised if that inefficient use would be enough to compensate for the removal of expresses and extension of Mitchelton trains.

[Golliwog]

What about this:

From memory, the existing 7:04am express service arrives at FG shortly after the 6:45am service departs. The train for the 7:16am service is made from the 7:02am arrival, and the 7:26am service is an empty the the 7:04am service usually passes between FG and Keperra. The Mitchelton starter that leaves Mitchelton at 7:17am is made from a Mitchelton terminator that arrives at 7:11am, so if this continued in service to FG it would arrive at 7:20am.

The train for the 7:04am service could easily depart FG at 6:55am, using a crew change the 7:02am could turn around and depart at 7:05am (more leeway than the existing 8:05am arrival for an 8:07am departure turnaround), the train for the 7:26am service can now depart at 7:15am and what was a Mitchelton starter can now depart FG at 7:25am. I'm not familiar with how the rest of the services on the FG line are formed, however from the timetable it appears the 7:46am Mitchelton starter runs empty to Mitchelton, but if you can rejig it and the units for the 7:43am (as far as I can see made from the 7:34am FG arrival) and 7:55am (appears to run empty to FG) FG starters around similar to I have above and put one in at 7:35am, you've now given the entire FG line an even 10 minute frequency from 6:45am to 7:55am (or 8:07am if you include that service being slightly off), without needing any extra units.

Of course this would change where these units end up at the CBD and beyond end of their running (and probably also where they come from before they get to FG) but that's why this would be done as part of the timetable review.

[SurfRail]

There isn't enough rolling stock for more services.  It's a zero sum game.

There is actually.  It just depends how retrograde you want to go ie converting some 6-cars back to 3-cars and making a lot more people stand than presently do.  Not likely this will happen of course.

[somebody]

There isn't enough rolling stock for more services.  It's a zero sum game.

There is actually.  It just depends how retrograde you want to go ie converting some 6-cars back to 3-cars and making a lot more people stand than presently do.  Not likely this will happen of course.

I would count that as zero sum.

[somebody]

using a crew change the 7:02am could turn around and depart at 7:05am

Ok, but using a crew change is again taking away from somewhere else - reliability.

[SurfRail]

There isn't enough rolling stock for more services.  It's a zero sum game.

There is actually.  It just depends how retrograde you want to go ie converting some 6-cars back to 3-cars and making a lot more people stand than presently do.  Not likely this will happen of course.

I would count that as zero sum.

I wouldn't.  It will accommodate some growth, just not very much, and it would be very uncomfortable for a while.  Unless they get moving, we might be stuck.

[Golliwog]

using a crew change the 7:02am could turn around and depart at 7:05am

Ok, but using a crew change is again taking away from somewhere else - reliability.

Only if the service is running late in the first place, and even then that should only be if it encounters an issue on the Roma St-FG leg. There's the dwell at Central, and if it's big enough I don't see why they couldn't do what happens with PM peak services heading north across the river that are running late and start a new service from RS that leaves on time and the late running service continues to somewhere else, or terminates at BH.

And as I pointed out, the 8:07am express uses a shorter turn around and I haven't heard complaints about that running late.

[somebody]

What about this:

I've examined your proposal in detail, and I see that an assumption you are making is that the empties can depart Bowen Hills earlier than they do currently.  This may not be accurate.  Also, I am 100% sure QR would prefer not to do the crew swaps at Ferny Grove.  That shows just how low the level of slack in the rolling stock utilisation is, right there.

Here's an in detail resolution of it:

Station

am

am

am

am

am

am

am

am

am

am

am

am

am

am

am

Park

Road

5:18

5:49

Out of

6:19

6:52

7:21

7:34

7:52

8:07

8:16

8:35

8:53

9:04

South

Bank

5:21

5:52

Order!!!

6:22

6:55

7:24

7:37

7:55

8:10

8:19

8:38

8:56

9:07

South

Brisbane

----

----

5:23

5:54

----

6:24

6:57

7:26

7:39

7:57

8:12

8:21

8:40

8:58

9:09

Roma

Street

4:11

4:40

mt

5:28

mt

5:59

mt

6:47

6:29

mt

mt

7:01

mt

mt

mt

7:31

7:44

8:02

8:17

8:26

8:45

9:03

9:14

Central

arrive

4:13

4:42

5:30

6:01

6:49

6:31

7:03

7:33

7:46

8:04

8:19

8:28

8:47

9:05

9:16

Central

depart

4:15

4:44

5:37

6:04

6:51

6:33

7:05

7:35

7:48

8:06

8:21

8:30

8:49

9:08

9:19

Fortitude

Valley

4:17

4:46

5:39

6:06

6:53

6:35

7:07

7:37

7:50

8:08

8:23

8:32

8:51

9:10

9:21

Bowen

Hills

4:20

4:49

5:42

6:09

6:56

6:38

7:10

7:40

7:53

8:11

8:26

8:35

8:54

9:13

9:24

Windsor

4:23

4:52

5:45

6:12

6:59

6:41

7:13

7:44

7:57

8:15

8:29

8:38

8:57

9:17

9:27

Wilston

4:25

4:54

5:47

6:14

7:01

6:43

7:15

7:46

7:59

8:17

8:31

8:40

8:59

9:19

9:29

Newmarket

4:27

4:56

5:49

6:16

7:03

6:45

7:17

7:48

8:01

8:19

8:33

8:42

9:01

9:21

9:31

Alderley

4:29

4:58

5:51

6:18

7:05

6:47

7:19

7:50

8:03

8:21

8:35

8:44

9:03

9:23

9:33

Enoggera

4:31

5:00

5:53

6:20

7:07

6:49

7:21

7:52

8:05

8:23

8:37

8:46

9:05

9:25

9:35

Gaythorne

4:33

5:02

5:55

6:22

7:09

6:51

7:23

7:54

8:07

8:25

8:39

8:48

9:07

9:27

9:37

Mitchelton

4:35

5:04

5:57

6:24

7:11

6:53

7:25

7:56

8:09

8:27

8:41

8:50

9:09

9:29

9:39

Oxford

Park

4:37

5:06

5:59

6:26

----

6:55

7:27

7:58

8:11

8:29

8:43

8:52

9:11

9:31

9:41

Grovely

4:39

5:08

6:01

6:28

6:57

7:29

8:00

8:13

8:31

8:45

8:54

9:13

9:33

9:43

Keperra

4:41

5:10

6:03

6:30

6:59

7:31

8:02

8:15

8:33

8:47

8:56

9:15

9:35

9:45

Ferny

Grove

4:44

5:13

6:07

6:34

7:02

7:34

8:05

8:18

8:36

8:50

8:59

9:18

9:38

9:48

As intended:

Ferny

Grove

5:00

5:30

6:00

6:14

6:30

6:45

7:04

7:16

7:26

7:43

7:55

8:07

8:20

8:30

8:42

8:57

9:12

9:27

9:42

9:57

Keperra

5:04

5:34

6:04

6:18

6:34

6:49

7:08

7:19

7:30

7:47

7:59

8:11

8:24

8:34

8:46

9:01

9:16

9:31

9:46

10:01

Grovely

5:06

5:36

6:06

6:20

6:36

6:51

7:10

7:21

7:32

7:49

8:01

8:13

8:26

8:36

8:48

9:03

9:18

9:33

9:48

10:03

Oxford

Park

5:07

5:37

6:07

6:21

6:37

6:52

7:11

----

7:22

7:33

----

7:50

8:02

8:15

----

8:27

8:37

8:49

9:04

9:19

9:34

9:49

10:04

Mitchelton

5:09

5:39

6:09

6:23

6:39

6:54

7:13

7:17

7:24

7:35

7:46

7:52

8:04

8:17

8:21

8:29

8:39

8:51

9:06

9:21

9:36

9:51

10:06

Gaythorne

5:11

5:41

6:11

6:25

6:41

6:56

7:15

7:19

7:26

7:37

7:48

7:54

8:06

exp

8:23

8:31

8:42

8:53

9:08

9:23

9:38

9:53

10:08

Enoggera

5:13

5:43

6:13

6:27

6:43

6:58

7:17

7:21

7:28

7:39

7:50

7:56

8:08

exp

8:25

8:33

8:44

8:55

9:10

9:25

9:40

9:55

10:10

Alderley

5:15

5:45

6:15

6:29

6:45

7:00

exp

7:23

7:30

7:41

7:52

7:58

8:10

exp

8:27

8:35

8:46

8:57

9:12

9:27

9:42

9:57

10:12

Newmarket

5:17

5:47

6:17

6:31

6:47

7:02

exp

7:25

7:32

7:43

7:54

8:00

8:12

exp

8:29

8:37

8:48

8:59

9:14

9:29

9:44

9:59

10:14

Wilston

5:19

5:49

6:19

6:33

6:49

7:04

exp

7:27

7:34

7:45

7:56

8:02

8:14

exp

8:31

8:39

8:50

9:01

9:16

9:31

9:46

10:01

10:16

Windsor

5:21

5:51

6:21

6:35

6:51

7:06

exp

7:29

7:36

7:47

7:58

8:04

8:16

exp

8:33

8:41

8:52

9:03

9:18

9:33

9:48

10:03

10:18

Bowen

Hills

5:24

5:54

6:24

6:38

6:54

7:09

7:24

7:32

7:39

7:50

8:01

8:07

8:19

8:26

8:36

8:44

8:55

9:06

9:21

9:36

9:51

10:06

10:21

Fortitude

Valley

5:27

5:57

6:27

6:41

6:57

7:12

7:27

7:35

7:42

7:53

8:04

8:10

8:22

8:29

8:39

8:47

8:58

9:09

9:24

9:39

9:54

10:09

10:24

Central

arrive

5:29

5:59

6:30

6:44

7:00

7:15

7:30

7:37

7:45

7:56

8:07

8:12

8:25

8:32

8:41

8:50

9:01

9:12

9:27

9:42

9:57

10:12

10:27

Central

depart

5:31

6:01

6:32

6:46

7:02

7:17

7:33

7:39

7:47

7:58

8:09

8:14

8:28

8:34

8:42

8:52

9:04

9:14

9:31

9:44

10:01

10:14

10:31

Roma

Street

5:33

6:03

6:34

6:48

7:04

7:19

7:35

7:41

7:49

8:00

8:11

8:16

8:30

8:36

8:44

8:54

9:06

9:16

9:33

9:46

10:03

10:16

10:33

South

Brisbane

5:38

6:08

6:39

6:53

7:09

7:24

7:40

7:46

7:54

8:05

8:16

----

8:35

----

----

----

9:11

9:20

9:38

9:50

10:08

10:20

10:38

South

Bank

5:40

6:10

6:41

6:55

7:11

7:26

7:42

7:48

7:56

8:07

8:18

8:37

9:13

9:22

9:40

9:52

10:10

10:22

10:40

Park

Road

5:43

6:13

6:44

6:58

7:14

7:29

7:45

7:50

7:59

8:10

8:21

8:40

9:16

9:25

9:43

9:55

10:13

10:25

10:43

Continues

to

BNH

BNH

BNH

CVN

BNH

CVN

BNH

YLY

CVN

BNH

YLY

BNH

BNH

BNH

BNH

BNH

Golliwog's

proposal:

Ferny

Grove

6:55

7:25

7:05

7:15

7:45

7:35

[Golliwog]

Yeah, I didn't have a close look at the empties (though the ones for the 7:04 and 7:26 I know are fine as is, they just need to turn around faster) as to whether or not they could slot in earlier through the city or not as I figured this would be part of the sector 2 new timetables where you'd have much more of a scope to change time slots through the central section. This was more just to point out there's a fair bit of slack in terms of units dwelling at FG.

As for crew swaps at FG, you may be right, although as far as I'm aware they now do crew swaps all day for the 15 minute frequency portion of the timetable, so they're obviously not that opposed to it.

[somebody]

As for crew swaps at FG, you may be right, although as far as I'm aware they now do crew swaps all day for the 15 minute frequency portion of the timetable, so they're obviously not that opposed to it.

But there's a 9 minute dwell in the timetable!

[Golliwog]

I haven't paid too much attention lately, but pretty sure it still happens.
See: http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=9080.msg110473#msg110473

Yeah, crews swap at Ferny Grove (mainly so they didn't have to change all the jobcards i'd say.. So the crews that would normally take the beenleigh train from ferny still take the beenleigh train.. Its just a different unit.. New ferny trains have crews that take over the next park rd train etc) but I don't think they swap at Park Rd, just change ends and head back AFAIK.

[ozbob]

Twitter

Taras Grescoe ‏@grescoe

"Building roads to relieve congestion: like dieting by loosening your belt." L. Mumford knew it. Paradox explained: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Downs%E2%80%93Thomson_paradox ...

[ozbob]

Couriermail --> Traffic taskforce proposes radical plan for congested cities

SCHOOL starting times would be staggered and congestion charges trialled under a radical plan to unclog Australia's congested capital cities.

A taskforce of eight key transport, planning and health industry bodies will tomorrow night release a 130-page report warning Australian cities are in crisis, as creaking urban infrastructure fails to keep pace with our growing population.

User-pays fees like tolls, congestion and heavy vehicle charges should be expanded to fund investments in roads, rail and public transport, according to the Moving Australia 2030 report, to be launched by the federal Transport Minister Anthony Albanese ...


... Australians are being forced into their cars because of a lack of public transport options, the report says, exposing them to rising petrol prices and the health effects of physical inactivity ...

[ozbob]

Some places take it further and have two shifts at schools.  Mornings and afternoons ...  say 7am 12 noon 1pm - 6pm ...