Fares_Fair's Fair Fares

[Fares_Fair]

Fares_Fair's Fair Fares
That's a catchy one liner for a title I reckon.   

This is a thought experiment (out loud) and for comment.

$1 per zone for zones 1-9.
$0.50c per zone thereafter for zones 10-23. (small compensation for levels of service and diminished frequency)


* Fare rises to be applied annually, equal to CPI and no more than 5% in any given year.

* 50% off-peak discount.

* Peak times set for arrivals between 0600 to 0900 hours and 1600 to 1900 hours.

* TransLink access pass to remain, SEEQ should remain but price reduced to match interstate competitive tourist all-day travel systems.
   EDIT: Suggest that tourist pass be used for family group travel

*ALL paper ticketing to be retained and to match go card pricing given the go card 2 year 'dormancy' rules.
  go cards put away into a drawer for later use have money transferred to Translink, with forms to fill in for money return after 2 years non-use.
  Removal of 2 year dormancy rule will negate the need for this option.

* Return paper tickets to be re-introduced by popular demand.

* Concession card holders pay the off-peak fare all day, every day, with 2 journey daily cap.

* Health Care Card holders get off-peak fares all day, every day, with 2 journey daily cap.

* Pensioners access concession card for off-peak fares all day, every day with 2 journey daily cap.

* go card Peak Monthly (rates set per zone according to card type with maximum number of journeys)

* go card 3 Peak Monthly (rates set per zone according to card type with maximum number of journeys)

* go card 6 Peak Monthly (rates set per zone according to card type with maximum number of journeys)

* go card Peak Annually (rates set per zone according to card type with maximum number of journeys)

[somebody]

You're aware that zones 10-23 have larger spacing than zones 1-9, right?

[Mr X]

I like the idea of reducing the zone 1 flagfall

[#Metro]

Can this be moved to the main fares discussion thread? 

[Gazza]

ALL paper ticketing to be retained and to match go card pricing given the go card 2 year 'dormancy' rules

What if you removed the dormancy rule, that would mean we could get rid of paper tickets right?

[#Metro]

$1 per zone for zones 1-9.
$0.50c per zone thereafter for zones 10-23. (small compensation for levels of service and diminished frequency)

I was thinking this morning about the "exponential fare system" this morning while on the bus. The exponential system's flaw (IMHO) is that fares don't rise fast enough in the inner city areas. Then I wondered what the opposite case would be for someone who lives a huge distance and wanted to increase their own benefits - and I came up with "Logarithmic fare system" - fares rise sharply in the inner city areas and for short journeys and then plateau towards the end - seeing this post is nice because it just confirmed exactly what I suspected this morning... note that I am against log fares as well, do you really want to encourage MORE Yarrabilba style developments / sprawl were we can't even pay for the track to reach these people and high cost low frequency services? I can understand long distance commutes in somewhere like Japan where they have the shinkansen and the density and population, but this is Australia.

Image: What Logarithmic Fares Would Look Like

* Fare rises to be applied annually, equal to CPI and no more than 5% in any given year.

I don't need to re-state my opposition to CPI capping, but as a demonstration, if CPI is running at 3% then 5% - 3% is two percent wiggle room in real terms. Looking at the cash flow statement from TL (http://translink.com.au/resources/about-translink/reporting-and-publications/2011-12-annual-report.pdf , page 110) $420 million dollars came out of fares, at 2% (after CPI) that's just $8.4 million dollars - that's not even enough to put on 1 Maroon CityGlider into operation.

If people want to ask for upgraded trains here, there, everywhere, you're going to need an acceptable band for rises and NOT cap to CPI.

* 50% off-peak discount.

Agree.

* Peak times set for arrivals between 0600 to 0900 hours and 1600 to 1900 hours.

No set view either way.

* TransLink access pass to remain, SEEQ should remain but price reduced to match interstate competitive tourist all-day travel systems.

I always think that if the fare system is good enough that there is no need for a tourist product- however others on the forum don't have this view and thus tourist card is what they got.

*ALL paper ticketing to be retained and to match go card pricing given the go card 2 year 'dormancy' rules.
  go cards put away into a drawer for later use have money transferred to Translink, with forms to fill in for money return after 2 years non-use.
  Removal of 2 year dormancy rule will negate the need for this option.

KILL paper!

* Return paper tickets to be re-introduced by popular demand.

Disagree.

* Concession card holders pay the off-peak fare all day, every day, with 2 journey daily cap.

* Health Care Card holders get off-peak fares all day, every day, with 2 journey daily cap.

* Pensioners access concession card for off-peak fares all day, every day with 2 journey daily cap.

Two journey cap seems like giving away too much... but OK

* go card Peak Monthly (rates set per zone according to card type with maximum number of journeys)

* go card 3 Peak Monthly (rates set per zone according to card type with maximum number of journeys)

* go card 6 Peak Monthly (rates set per zone according to card type with maximum number of journeys)

* go card Peak Annually (rates set per zone according to card type with maximum number of journeys)

As much as I want to scream 'NO WAY', I have to admit that Myki Melbourne does have these options where you can load whatever
time length you want as a pass from 7 days all the way up to 365 (it throws in extra free days so it's not exactly 365), so it does have merit.

[Gazza]

If people want to ask for upgraded trains here, there, everywhere, you're going to need an acceptable band for rises and NOT cap to CPI.

Its not linear though.

Eg if you put up fares 10% above inflation you wouldn't get 10% extra ($42 million) because patronage would drop due to the 10% increase, meaning the amount of extra revenue wouldn't be that much.

[somebody]

* Concession card holders pay the off-peak fare all day, every day, with 2 journey daily cap.

* Health Care Card holders get off-peak fares all day, every day, with 2 journey daily cap.

* Pensioners access concession card for off-peak fares all day, every day with 2 journey daily cap.

Hmm, Arnz said the same thing.  I just don't get this idea - so concession holders only get a benefit at peak hour???  Tends to promote people travelling on concessions to travel in peak hour.

* go card Peak Monthly (rates set per zone according to card type with maximum number of journeys)

* go card 3 Peak Monthly (rates set per zone according to card type with maximum number of journeys)

* go card 6 Peak Monthly (rates set per zone according to card type with maximum number of journeys)

* go card Peak Annually (rates set per zone according to card type with maximum number of journeys)

What's the rationale for this?  A loadable periodical or automatically applied?

[Gazza]

go card Peak Monthly (rates set per zone according to card type with maximum number of journeys)

* go card 3 Peak Monthly (rates set per zone according to card type with maximum number of journeys)

* go card 6 Peak Monthly (rates set per zone according to card type with maximum number of journeys)

* go card Peak Annually (rates set per zone according to card type with maximum number of journeys)

Instead of offering a monthly fare etc at a special rate to those who can afford to load it upfront, why not just provide an everyday low fare to all users, so everyone is equal?

[#Metro]

Its not linear though.

Eg if you put up fares 10% above inflation you wouldn't get 10% extra ($84 million) because patronage would drop due to the 10% increase, meaning the amount of extra revenue wouldn't be that much.

Yes, this is true Gazza - it isn't linear.

Worthwhile though to demonstrate the importance of NOT capping to CPI. If people's incomes go up by more than CPI in year X, then I think it is fair that fares increase above CPI as well - particularly if they demand improvements - which would keep the proportion that people spend on PT constant. Remember, off peak fares are super cheap under 50% discount regimes, and passengers during peak hours are generally commuters with jobs...and thus can afford to pay. Of course, nobody wants to cap their wage to CPI, do they now? LOL.

Lower fares for long distance commuters isn't going to attract heaps of new patronage as opposed to lower fares for more denser closer in areas  because car has a much larger advantage if you work late and its generally faster (no stopping all the way to Caboolture) and more comfortable (can stop at service station toilets, LOL) as well.

Trying to stop long distance commuters using the 'evil' car neglects the ugly truth that car probably is the best mode for low density, long distance commutes (am I allowed to say that here?!) whereas within the denser areas such as city areas it's the opposite.

[#Metro]

Hmm, Arnz said the same thing.  I just don't get this idea - so concession holders only get a benefit at peak hour???  Tends to promote people travelling on concessions to travel in peak hour.

Good point Simon. 50% disount is supposed to shift people out of peak. Although I can see how it can be perverse also. Student concession have to travel in peak for obvious reasons. On the other hand, below a certain threshold, further discounting will have no effect on behaviour anyway.

[Arnz]

There is a simple discount for concession users, or the multiple levels of concession discounting (off-peak concession, peak concession, pensioner's 2 and free). 

While I don't mind either, aiming for a simpler concession rate under the KISS scheme would seem a lot easier.  But under my thread, I've compensated for those paying full adult peak fares through the "family concessions" by allowing kids aged 6-12 to travel free after 6pm weekdays and all weekends by linking the child go card(s) to the nominated adult(s) go cards.  Kids aged 5 and under travel free with a accompanied adult (no go card is necessary for that child).

Touch on of all go cards should be at least within 30 mins of each to utilise the "family" discount.

[ozbob]

Thanks Fair_Fares for your fare suggestions.  I have moved this thread to the area for these discussions.

[ozbob]

Can this be moved to the main fares discussion thread? 

This thread belongs here with the rest of the members' fare proposals.

[Fares_Fair]

Can this be moved to the main fares discussion thread? 

This thread belongs here with the rest of the members' fare proposals.

[Fares_Fair]

* Concession card holders pay the off-peak fare all day, every day, with 2 journey daily cap.

* Health Care Card holders get off-peak fares all day, every day, with 2 journey daily cap.

* Pensioners access concession card for off-peak fares all day, every day with 2 journey daily cap.

Hmm, Arnz said the same thing.  I just don't get this idea - so concession holders only get a benefit at peak hour???  Tends to promote people travelling on concessions to travel in peak hour.

* go card Peak Monthly (rates set per zone according to card type with maximum number of journeys)

* go card 3 Peak Monthly (rates set per zone according to card type with maximum number of journeys)

* go card 6 Peak Monthly (rates set per zone according to card type with maximum number of journeys)

* go card Peak Annually (rates set per zone according to card type with maximum number of journeys)

What's the rationale for this?  A loadable periodical or automatically applied?

My rationale:
I just think it should be the same for concession eligible people whose travel needs are according to their medical appointments or whatever and should not be tied to peak or non-peak periods. I don't want to impose non-peak time use on those who have other needs.

Automatically applied through the software (whether or not that capability exists at present)
It's a hypothetical system.

[Fares_Fair]

go card Peak Monthly (rates set per zone according to card type with maximum number of journeys)

* go card 3 Peak Monthly (rates set per zone according to card type with maximum number of journeys)

* go card 6 Peak Monthly (rates set per zone according to card type with maximum number of journeys)

* go card Peak Annually (rates set per zone according to card type with maximum number of journeys)

Instead of offering a monthly fare etc at a special rate to those who can afford to load it upfront, why not just provide an everyday low fare to all users, so everyone is equal?

Interesting point Gazza, I didn't think many wanted long haul commuters to be equal in any respect.
Seriously though, it's a reward for ongoing regular use, and encourages maximum utilisation of the network.

[Fares_Fair]

Its not linear though.

Eg if you put up fares 10% above inflation you wouldn't get 10% extra ($84 million) because patronage would drop due to the 10% increase, meaning the amount of extra revenue wouldn't be that much.

Yes, this is true Gazza - it isn't linear.

Worthwhile though to demonstrate the importance of NOT capping to CPI. If people's incomes go up by more than CPI in year X, then I think it is fair that fares increase above CPI as well - particularly if they demand improvements - which would keep the proportion that people spend on PT constant. Remember, off peak fares are super cheap under 50% discount regimes, and passengers during peak hours are generally commuters with jobs...and thus can afford to pay. Of course, nobody wants to cap their wage to CPI, do they now? LOL.

Lower fares for long distance commuters isn't going to attract heaps of new patronage as opposed to lower fares for more denser closer in areas  because car has a much larger advantage if you work late and its generally faster (no stopping all the way to Caboolture) and more comfortable (can stop at service station toilets, LOL) as well.

Trying to stop long distance commuters using the 'evil' car neglects the ugly truth that car probably is the best mode for low density, long distance commutes (am I allowed to say that here?!) whereas within the denser areas such as city areas it's the opposite.

wow, not enough the beloved bus gets a mention ...
Seriously, have to disagree with you here TT, (and yes you are allowed to say that here)  insert icon of person in stocks -->

[#Metro]

There is a post on the ht website in my favour on this I do believe. The only exception is where high speed services are provided that are faster than car such as japan or perth mandurah.

[Stillwater]

Anna Bligh's 20-whatever promise of a fast train to both coasts, taking 'about an hour', for the Sunshine Coast, would have required CRR, associated tunnel to Alderley, Trouts Road rail corridor and track augmentation to Caboolture, plus duplication Beerburrum-Nambour/CAMCOS.  Nice idea, shame about the lack of a financial plan to raise the necessary money.  It will be interesting to see CanDo cheaper's alternative