Why are connections from Shorncliffe to Milton so difficult?

[plugmeister]

Hi all,

It appears that this forum has participants who have much knowledge and understanding of the QR network, so please explain to me, why is it so hard to get a decent connection from the Shorncliffe Line to Milton and vice versa?

<rant>It is like the two lines exist in parallel universes, so that when a Shorncliffe train comes into Roma St, a Milton train is leaving/just left.  Same in the afternoon, as a Milton train is approaching Roma St, a Shorncliffe train is already leaving (or they pair up and travel side by side to Northgate so it makes it impossible to connect).  To make it even worse, a *Special* train often goes through Milton platform 2 on it's way to Roma St, then magically transforms into a Shorncliffe Train that I am about to miss as I wait for my train on platform 4 at Milton.  WTF can't those trains pick up passengers at Milton!

To all QR/Tranlink people out there, this is not customer service, it is customer torture!  Before the last lot of train timetable changes I could catch trains each way that ran direct, now I have an extra 15+ minutes on my schedule (should I choose to wait that is - walking from Roma St to Milton is quicker than trains - big fail QR!)

Please help me understand why this is happening when small changes to schedules could make the Brisbane public transport experience so much better.
</rant>

PS:  I travel from Redcliffe, so don't even get me started on why I have to wait 15 minutes for train at Sandgate when catching a bus - I've been driving to Deagon for years because of that, and since the lack of train connections above, drive regularly to Northgate.  So much for getting cars off the road.  I can also ride a bike to work faster than I can catch Translink Services, so go figure.......

Thanks,

Plug

[Golliwog]

As I understand it (other probably know better than I) there's 2 reasons. One is that you've got 4-5 pairings and transferring from one pair to the other is always going to involve a delay. Some lines match up better than others.

The other reason is that when they did the stage 1 timetable review that made changes to the Caboolture/Nambour-Ipswich/Richlands/Rosewood corridor, they knew they made issues with transfers at Roma St, but had always planned for the stage 2 changes that would impact the other lines to come not too long afterwards and be able to fix those up. I've found similar issues changing from Toowong/Indro trains to Ferny Grove services.

[plugmeister]

I understand that Roma St is a bottleneck, but are you saying that operational requirements are taking precedence over customer convenience?

[#Metro]

Because this is Queensland. If you consider moving, I hear Ferny Grove line has decent frequency nowadays. 
The reality is that train frequency across almost the entire network is crapola and is likely to stay that way for many years to come.

As an ex-train station resident, I highly recommend living near BUZ routes or busway stations.

QR Network planners are not going to re-organise the network timetables for 1 person, the solution here is standard minimum 15 minute frequency during daylight hours to make connections easier.

[petey3801]

In the off-peak, the Shorncliffe trains used to run through the Corinda, until the 'Sector 1' timetable was introduced, which also introduced the Richlands line into full operation with the rest of the network.

With this new timetable, it was decided to no longer have the Shorncliffe line connect to the West, due to partial sectorisation, so the Ipswich/Rosewood/Richlands trains go straight through to Petrie/Caboolture/Sunshine Coast direct on the main lines (empty/transfer trains in the peaks excluded). As the Shorncliffe line needs to swap to the Suburban lines at some point before Northgate, is was decided to keep these trains on the Suburban lines into the City and continue them on to Cleveland, as this would require minimal changes to the current 'Sector 2' timetable. Unfortunately this also means the trains to/from Richlands pass through the City at the same (or roughly the same) time as the trains to/from Shorncliffe, which isn't likely to change in the future at this stage, as the Shorncliffe line combines with the Caboolture line to give a 15min frequency (well, it did...) between Northgate and the City and the Richlands and Ipswich lines form the 15min frequency City - Darra.

As for the peak hour empty runs in the afternoon running empty past Milton to form a service from Roma Street, that's a question for the train/timetable planners. We just do what we're told (via the timetable and our jobcards)! Some of the empty trains do wait at Roma Street Junction (just on the Milton side, actually) for a fair amount of time before forming their next run (some trains can sit there for 20mins or so, so not ideal for pax operations from Milton in those cases).

In the off-peak, traveling from Milton to the Shorncliffe line, if you catch the Bowen Hills train (ie: train from Richlands) from Milton and want to connect to the Shorncliffe line, my advise is to change at Fortitude Valley. This is because Bowen Hills/Roma Street terminating trains are generally allowed to run early through the City (simply due to there being plenty of trains available for passengers to catch through the City), so the Bowen Hills train generally gains a couple minutes on the Shorncliffe train on departure from Central, allowing a bit more time to connect/transfer at the Valley. Don't go to Bowen Hills though, as the Bowen Hills train will lose time into Bowen Hills due to restricted signals, whereas the Shorncliffe train should have greens in to Bowen Hills!

When the Sector 2 timetables are finally completed, things might change, but for that we'll just have to wait and see really!

but are you saying that operational requirements are taking precedence over customer convenience?

Depends. Is it more convenient to have a reliable, clockface 15min timetable on the West, meaning some lines may not connect as well through the City, or have an uneven frequency on the West in order to allow some better connections to some lines in the City (while most likely killing other connections in the City in the process... Can't get all the connections only a couple minutes apart for all lines!).

[somebody]

In peak hour, the main solution would be to run more trains between Milton and Roma St counter peak.  In the PM peak, you could run trains from Milton #2 into Roma St #6/#7 and only conflict with Richlands bound trains, but doing the reverse move in the morning would be a real no-no.  You'd have to either conflict with numerous trains coming from the Merivale bridge or reduce trains along the Caboolture line to run into Bowen Hills #3.

Outside of peak, I think there is little excuse for their timetabling!  But last weekend you saw people marching in the street because of a public holiday occurring on a different day, so we have the politicians we deserve.

but are you saying that operational requirements are taking precedence over customer convenience?

Perhaps that is one way of looking at it, but reducing reliability for the whole system to convenience a few Shorncliffe-Milton commuters is not a good trade.

[HappyTrainGuy]

Shorncliffe services also go on to form the peak hour Gold Coast services too.

I can also ride a bike to work faster than I can catch Translink Services, so go figure.......

Sandgate to Milton is about 25/26km and takes about 50 mins by train. That means you must average 30kph to arrive there at the same time the train does. Add the Sandgate to Redcliffe leg and its about 45km/1h30m by PT (assuming you get the 690). If my math is still good that's a 30kph average. If your that fit to maintain a speed thats faster than the train + bus + wait times why don't you just ride there all the time and save yourself the $65 in weekly Translink fares commuting from Redcliffe to Milton?

Have you also considered catching a bus from Roma Street Bus Station if the waits are too long?

[somebody]

Have you also considered catching a bus from Roma Street Bus Station if the waits are too long?

That might make sense in the PM, but not the AM and particularly not when the 88 gets canned.  It takes fully 5 minutes to get from the river side of Coro to the other in the AM peak, and the bus ride itself is slow with all the traffic lights and congestion.

[BrizCommuter]

Hi all,

It appears that this forum has participants who have much knowledge and understanding of the QR network, so please explain to me, why is it so hard to get a decent connection from the Shorncliffe Line to Milton and vice versa?

<rant>It is like the two lines exist in parallel universes, so that when a Shorncliffe train comes into Roma St, a Milton train is leaving/just left.  Same in the afternoon, as a Milton train is approaching Roma St, a Shorncliffe train is already leaving (or they pair up and travel side by side to Northgate so it makes it impossible to connect).  To make it even worse, a *Special* train often goes through Milton platform 2 on it's way to Roma St, then magically transforms into a Shorncliffe Train that I am about to miss as I wait for my train on platform 4 at Milton.  WTF can't those trains pick up passengers at Milton!

To all QR/Tranlink people out there, this is not customer service, it is customer torture!  Before the last lot of train timetable changes I could catch trains each way that ran direct, now I have an extra 15+ minutes on my schedule (should I choose to wait that is - walking from Roma St to Milton is quicker than trains - big fail QR!)

Please help me understand why this is happening when small changes to schedules could make the Brisbane public transport experience so much better.
</rant>

PS:  I travel from Redcliffe, so don't even get me started on why I have to wait 15 minutes for train at Sandgate when catching a bus - I've been driving to Deagon for years because of that, and since the lack of train connections above, drive regularly to Northgate.  So much for getting cars off the road.  I can also ride a bike to work faster than I can catch Translink Services, so go figure.......

Thanks,

Plug

Simple answer - it is impossible for all lines to connect with other lines, especially when trains only runs every 30mins.

[SurfRail]

^ However, it should be possible to optimise some of those connections. There is definitely room to shift some of the Sector II services a bit to allow for better connections to Milton-Darra.  Guaranteed is out though.

[plugmeister]

Nice to get a bit of discussion happening

Before the previous major train timetable changes, the situation was perfect i.e. trains ran from Milton through to Shorncliffe (and some also the other direction).  Now the situation is the exact opposite i.e. the trains from Milton run in parallel with Shorncliffe trains, so I can now watch the Shorncliffe train out of the window all the way to Northgate knowing I will never get across the platforms to make the connection (sometimes I can if I sprint, but we all know the signs tell us that is very dangerous...).

I understand that there are operational needs, but also see that when I do bother to wait at Roma St for a train to Milton (when I';m too lazy to do the walk), there are hundreds of other commuters facing the same issue, so I don't expect a timetable change for one person, but I do expect that services could be tweaked and improved when there is an issue.  I  also don't expect all trains from all lines to connect given the limitations of a network designed that way it is, but it would be nice if at least a reasonable proportion of  trains connected more effectively.

On the comments regarding my bike, yes I am reasonably fit, and yes I can average approx 30kmh, so it takes 1:15 to 1:20.  Public transport actual travel time is just over one hour, but the connections are the killer (and frequency of service a close second).  If our pollies want more people to catch PT, then frequency and connections are the key, unfortunately with the buses, from where I work in Milton are not really an option and are not reliable enough to connect to trains.  The only other feasible option is a connection to the 315 from Bowen Hills, but alas, in most cases that leaves a couple of minutes before the train from Milton to Bowen Hills arrives.

@lapdog I agree I *could* move, but I could also just change my place employment as well.  A bit tough to do that in these times, so I am just grinning and bearing it, plus getting on my bike now the weather is a bit cooler.

I have tried to raise the Milton issue with Translink, but not much happening there are they seem to have too many issues on their plate, and I given the recent BT "issues" I get the feeling that Translink don't get as much say in things as they maybe they should..... 

[DayboroStation]

Hi Plugmeister, I agree and sympathise with you totally on this issue. I've been catching a train to Toowong (from Petrie/Lawnton) for years now, and there has been no improvement to counter-peak frequency on the Ipswich line during this time. I've raised this issue with QR and Translink over the years, but nothing ever changes.
I am amazed at the number of empty trains travelling on the Ipswich line back into the city during the PM counter-peak, one of which seems to sit empty at Milton Station for a few minutes at least (ie the Shorncliffe train that starts from Roma Street that was referred to in a previous post).
FYI: During AM peak, only 1 in 5 trains (on average) on the Petrie/Caboolture line travel beyond Roma Street – the rest terminate at Roma Street.
Even if QR extended some of the AM peak services from Roma Street to Indooroopilly, and commenced some of the PM services from Indooroopilly instead of Roma Street, this would improve frequency, and may even improve rail patronage.
In short, frequency needs to be improved.

[petey3801]

Like I said in an earlier post, while the frequency to Petrie/Caboolture is 30mins, the to/from Richlands trains will always parallel the Shorncliffe trains into Roma Street (when the timetable is done properly). This is so there is a 15min frequency to the West and a 15min frequency to Northgate (once again, when the timetable is actually done properly).

If we get 15min services to Petrie, things may change as the Northgate section won't rely on the Caboolture and Shorncliffe trains to provide a 15min service between them.

For now though, as I said, don't change from an ex-Richlands train at Roma Street for Shorncliffe. Change at Central or, even better, at the Valley, as there is a much better chance of you actually making the connection without sprinting between platforms. The Bowen Hills train generally won't wait time at Central while the Shorncliffe train will, so the Bowen Hills train will arrive at The Valley earlier than the Shorncliffe train.