Article: Public housing site to be sold for $400m development

[colinw]

Urgh, right next to Boundary road level crossing at Coopers Plains. I bet there's no thought of either grade separation or bumping the rail service to 4TPH.

Just jam in those houses, and let 'em drive. Queenslander.

Brisbane Times -> click here

A public housing site will be redeveloped by a private company in southern Brisbane as part of a state government project which will see $60 million worth of government land sold off in the next 10 years.

The Minister for Housing and Public Works, Bruce Flegg, today marked the start of work on The Corner, a community centre and sales office for an affordable residential development called Cornerstone Living in Coopers Plains.

Consolidated Properties is the developer behind the $400 million master-planned community and will redevelop former government land and old public housing properties.

One thousand new apartments and townhouses are planned for Cornerstone Living with 135 of those properties intended for affordable housing.
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The development will be at the corner bordered by Boundary Road, Breton Street, and Troughton Road in Coopers Plains (see the above map) that currently hosts about 50 social housing homes.

Dr Flegg said the progressive sale of government land over the next 10 years would raise $60 million which would be spent on new social housing in other areas.

[somebody]

Coopers Plains already has 4tph, technically.  Although some of this area is closer to Banoon.

[mufreight]

The area was all housing commission houses most built in the 1950's and many of which had been brought by the tenants so it will be interesting to see how many of those who are housing commission tenants at this time will be accomodated to allow this development to proceed bearing in mind that the number of affordable housing units in the redeveloped project will be less than a fifth of the currently tenanted dwellings presently there.
As for the Boundary Road level crossing this development might accelerate the provision of an overpass but the problem will remain with the Orange Grove Road intersection so close to the rail line.

[somebody]

I expect to go over the railway line, they'd need to go over Orange Grove Rd too.  Perhaps Orange Grove will get a ramp up to the intersection, but perhaps not.

[Gazza]

Perhaps Orange Grove will get a ramp up to the intersection, but perhaps not

I'd just put a dogleg in the end of Orange Grove Rd.

[SurfRail]

^ My guess has always been that the servo will probably go.

[Jonno]

There has to be better solution than ugly overpasses that will wipe our significant land around a railway station and create a barrier right in the middel of a suburb.  Look at Enoggera.  Fantastic example of traffic engineering completely and utterly destroying a urban environment. Should be used as a training example of what not to build. 

[Golliwog]

There has to be better solution than ugly overpasses that will wipe our significant land around a railway station and create a barrier right in the middel of a suburb.  Look at Enoggera.  Fantastic example of traffic engineering completely and utterly destroying a urban environment. Should be used as a training example of what not to build.

...as opposed to a railway line which cuts many suburbs in half? Have a look at the Ferny Grove line between Bowen Hills and Windsor. All they have now is the pedestrian gates on Le Geyt Street.

In terms of creating a barrier in a suburb, I think the train line at Enoggera is worse than that overpass. That said, the overpass is pretty ugly.

[#Metro]

Any class A ROW is going to cut suburbs in half, regardless of mode being car rapid transit (CRT), train, or bus. There are also a number of high-impact class B ROWs as well.

Dressing up overpasses might be one option.

[HappyTrainGuy]

There has to be better solution than ugly overpasses that will wipe our significant land around a railway station and create a barrier right in the middel of a suburb.  Look at Enoggera.  Fantastic example of traffic engineering completely and utterly destroying a urban environment. Should be used as a training example of what not to build. 

Enoggera was stuffed for anything patronage/development wise without the overpass. The shops/bus depot/police motor depot facing Pickering Street had a helping hand in that. The same can be said for many stations that border on parks (Nudgee/Sandgate/Keperra), empty land/owned undeveloped land (North Boondall-BEC/Wooloowin/Lawnton/Bald Hills), shopping complexes/areas (Carseldine/Virginia/Grovrely just to name a few), industrial areas (Strathpine/Northgate/Geebung/Sunshine).

[Jonno]

Dressing up overpasses might be one option.

Liptstick on a pig

[#Metro]

Liptstick on a pig

Well of course if you don't want to imagine alternatives, then surprise, surprise, all options are walled off.

It may be true that we don't know how to build viaducts anymore, and that the freeway era has traumatized a whole generation into reacting badly to absolutely anything new up in the air.  And I'm not sure that's a bad thing, but ...

But before we decide for sure, take a walk with me along Berlin's Stadtbahn. 

http://www.humantransit.org/2009/09/viaduct-love-in-berlin.html

[Gazza]

And that's how we get our mixed use incorporated with overpasses. Looks nice TT.

[SurfRail]

^ The Sydney and Melbourne instances of this are rather less edifiying.

[Jonno]

The urban design qualities of Stadtbhan are at the furthest extremes of design compared to our overpasses or raised rail lines.  Not sure there are many road equivalents of the Stadtbhan which road engineers would accept today.

[Jonno]

Busway development?

[colinw]

The urban design qualities of Stadtbhan are at the furthest extremes of design compared to our overpasses or raised rail lines.  Not sure there are many road equivalents of the Stadtbhan which road engineers would accept today.

This is getting a bit silly really. Coopers Plains will get a bog standard concrete overpass, if anything at all.

[HappyTrainGuy]

The overpass near Altandi certainly is an eyesore 

[Jonno]

The urban design qualities of Stadtbhan are at the furthest extremes of design compared to our overpasses or raised rail lines.  Not sure there are many road equivalents of the Stadtbhan which road engineers would accept today.

This is getting a bit silly really. Coopers Plains will get a bog standard concrete overpass, if anything at all.

Lets just accept



and not even discuss



or



or

[colinw]

What is to discuss? They're all bloody ugly!  I do not subscribe to this modern architectural conceit that you can dress up a bit of concrete with a few high tension cables and bits of metal at jaunty angles and suddenly it is attractive.

Although from an aesthetic perspective, rail in a trench probably trumps road on a bridge.

[HappyTrainGuy]

With new railway lines that makes sense but even then that can be a huge extra added expense for something that's only aesthetic to a few people. Take the Kippa Ring line. The Kingsellas road overpass is being built (approaches) using the dirt from the cuttings approaching the overpass. If the cutting was to be dug 7m deeper for safeworkings that puts sections of the line in risk of flooding from the nearby wetlands and causes issues with the grade needed to cover the 8m (about 10m once the ballast/drainage/bridge supports/cement is factored in) over the Bruce Highway.

If you were going to do that to replace the level crossings on the Beenleigh line you have to shut the entire line in sections rather than a few line closures over the weekend, full time replacment shuttle buses, property resumptions, changing the alignment, changing station locations, power lines, sewage lines, drainage, creeks, rollingstock noise, increased safety access/prevention and the list goes on an on. Suddenly the few million needed for each of the overpasses looks better and better.

[Jonno]

Your right the concrete wasteland is such a better and cheaper outcome.  Concrete on ramps for all!!

[HappyTrainGuy]

No matter how you look at it costs are always going to play a huge part. Especially on existing track. It might look better but its not always an affordable option to do so. One way to think about it would be the slight grade between Bray Park-Lawnton. Benefits would be greater visibility approaching the Todds road level crossing, slightly easier on freighters (their momentum sends them flying over it anyway) and the Francis Road overpass wouldn't be as high. They are benefits but its one hell of a costly effort to undertake for what would be minimal improvment. The same applies to alot of the current level crossings. It would be good to have the track lowered but that just raises more issues than it would fix.

[somebody]

What is to discuss? They're all bloody ugly!  I do not subscribe to this modern architectural conceit that you can dress up a bit of concrete with a few high tension cables and bits of metal at jaunty angles and suddenly it is attractive.

Although from an aesthetic perspective, rail in a trench probably trumps road on a bridge.

Hear here.

[#Metro]

To all the dissenters in this thread:
Go and design an acceptable solution for these crossings, post them with a picture, and then we'll have a look.

[SurfRail]

To all the dissenters in this thread:
Go and design an acceptable solution for these crossings, post them with a picture, and then we'll have a look.

Concrete overpass works for me.

Coopers Plains is basically a suburban primarily industrial area, so who gives a toss what it looks like as long as it works?

[nathandavid88]

At the end of the day we have two options: level crossing or concrete overpass. There is absolutely no chance of having a long existing (100 years +) at grade rail line sunk (the cost would be astronomical, and we already have a 'broke' state government.)

So, which is worse? The visual eyesore of an overpass, or the major inconvenience of an at grade crossing? I'm a graphic artist by trade, so I like visually attractive options when they are available, but what I would like more is to have a train line that doesn't have the added inconvenience that at grade crossings provide. As for the issue with Orange Grove Road, I agree with Gazza on the last page – dog leg it through that bit of scrub masquerading as a "park" and have it come out opposite Babbidge St (stick in some lights). Buy out the servo, and integrate some landscaping on the sides of the overpass and bob's your uncle! An overpass here wouldn't really do that much damage to visual amenity anyway – the western side is an industrial wasteland anyway.

[Gazza]

Your right the concrete wasteland is such a better and cheaper outcome.  Concrete on ramps for all!!

Should be horses for courses really....

If you ever grade separated somewhere like Sherwood then putting the rail line in a trench is the only option (And sinking the station at the same time like Nunawading in Melbourne)....Lots of streets  and buildings close to the crossing, trees etc, and nowhere to ramp up.

Cavendish Rd/Stanley St East is another example of where you'd probably need to sink the line.

At Coopers Plains it is an industrial area and you've got the space to ramp up.
Plus I don't like the idea of sinking the line because it means trashing a recently upgraded station, which is a waste of Taxpayers dollars.

[Jonno]

Your right the concrete wasteland is such a better and cheaper outcome.  Concrete on ramps for all!!

Should be horses for courses really....

If you ever grade separated somewhere like Sherwood then putting the rail line in a trench is the only option (And sinking the station at the same time like Nunawading in Melbourne)....Lots of streets  and buildings close to the crossing, trees etc, and nowhere to ramp up.

Cavendish Rd/Stanley St East is another example of where you'd probably need to sink the line.

At Coopers Plains it is an industrial area and you've got the space to ramp up.
Plus I don't like the idea of sinking the line because it means trashing a recently upgraded station, which is a waste of Taxpayers dollars.

Agree totally. 

At Cooper Plains could they not sink the through road whilst retaining the local streets. Does not have to be an over-engineered freeway style road either. Could even sink the Organe Grove Road to intersect/lights below grade. It not the interescetion of these roads causing the problem it is the train line stopping most movement.   

I personally think overpasses should be the last resort.  Only grade separate if it is really important to.  At the end of the day we need to accept that "through traffic" at all cost has ruined this city and is not the only priority. (e.g. leave Cooparoo Railway Station crossing and put in bigger gates.) If drivers don't like the delays then "jump on a bus or train" or go another way.

[Gazza]

jump on a bus or train" or go another way.

The problem is if we wanted to run our rail network at metro levels of frequency then the boom gates are down all the time.

So what happens if someone 'jumps on a bus' and the bus gets stuck at the boomgates.

Can't you see that?

Bikes and Buses use the road network too you know!

[colinw]

So what happens if someone 'jumps on a bus' and the bus gets stuck at the boomgates.

That is exactly why I advocate grade separation of strategic points like Warrigal Rd, which carries a BUZ route.  Sure, road users benefit, but the PT system does as well.

More minor crossings like Bonemill Road can stay as they are, but with the addition of UK style full width gates.

Boundary Road is justified on the number of boom strikes alone, and also because it is a very confusing and busy crossing.

[HappyTrainGuy]

Other problems here are also the height clearences and turning circle of over demensional loads eg trucks, trailers and large vehicles. Apparently Geebung had taken in alot of that when designing the overpass and modifying local roads.

jump on a bus or train" or go another way.

The problem is if we wanted to run our rail network at metro levels of frequency then the boom gates are down all the time.

So what happens if someone 'jumps on a bus' and the bus gets stuck at the boomgates.

Can't you see that?

Bikes and Buses use the road network too you know!

Hit up Geebung for a perfect example of the 325 stuck in both directions and the outbound 326/327/337 stuck and unable to turn left onto Robinson Road. You can see it in off peak sitting on the train as cars going straight/cars in the loading zone block the turning left lane. To make things worse all those routes at hourly bar the 337 which is every 2 hours.

[Gazza]

Boundary Road is justified on the number of boom strikes alone, and also because it is a very confusing and busy crossing.

Plus it'd make a good Orbital bus route.