Article: Qld govt won't commit to keeping Qld Rail

[HappyTrainGuy]

Bravo! What a fantastic statement!!

Its a good statement but you still have to consider that for our network its just not correct. For example north of Nundah you can almost count on one hand the amount of bus services that run to/past at 30 minutes or better (340 to Carseldine and 330 past Zillmere are the only 15 minute services. The 30 minute services are the 610 Nambour to Kawana, 660 Caboolture to Deception Bay, Burpengary with the 664 loop route, Narangba with the 663 loop and 668 Deception bay link, Geebung has a 30min frequency on the Roads leading to and from the station with the hourly 326/327 combo which is only let down by the fact that it arrives/departs the station at the exact same time the trains arrive/depart and Virginia has a 30 min frequency with the 310/315 combo but that changes from 30-45mins due to timetabling with the 315 throughout the day). That's pretty poor if you ask me.

[#Metro]

Gazza, let's say a BUZ costs $ 6 million to run each year (probs an overestimate).

10 BUZ = 60 million per year

500 million divided by 60 = 8 years

[somebody]

Its a good statement but you still have to consider that for our network its just not correct.

An untrue but good statement?

I say that it is correct.

[somebody]

Still cannot find the modal breakdown for Brisbane, but Some quotes from wiki

What do you mean?  That's in every Translink Tracker and also the Annual Report.

[HappyTrainGuy]

Its a good statement but you still have to consider that for our network its just not correct.

An untrue but good statement?

I say that it is correct.

Please care to enlighten me on how many train stations actually have a 30 minute or better bus service? I suggest you get out there and actually try using/observing PT that connects between heavy rail and buses. Heaven forbid should you attempt it after 6pm or on a weekend.

[mufreight]

"The tramway closure was notable for the speed with which it was carried out. Several hundred replacement buses were purchased from British vehicle manufacturer Leyland, at the time the largest single bus purchase in the world. The sudden acquisition of so many buses was to have repercussions in later years. Initially the Leyland Panther buses proved unreliable, and as a result, older front-engined mounted buses such as the Leyland Mk III Regals, dating from the 1940s, were retained

Just a minor nitpick, Mk III Regals were were manufactured by AEC not Leyland although later AEC became part of the Leyland Motors Group.
The Leyland Panthers which the council brought to replace the trams were in service quite reliable although at the time of their introduction they had a considerable number of failures due to what one would charitably class as operator errors.
Drivers who in some cases had not even held a car licence were put through a three/four week course to drive buses and many could not be rostered to drive the older AEC buses with preselect gears or the underfloor engined Leylands with penumocycle gearboxes.
A number of drivers from private operators were used for a short time following the withdrawl of the trams as casual driver to make up the shortage of BTZT drivers to operate services.

[somebody]

Its a good statement but you still have to consider that for our network its just not correct.

An untrue but good statement?

I say that it is correct.

Please care to enlighten me on how many train stations actually have a 30 minute or better bus service? I suggest you get out there and actually try using/observing PT that connects between heavy rail and buses. Heaven forbid should you attempt it after 6pm or on a weekend.

Not really what the statement was referring to, but in answer to your question I can suggest Carseldine and Zillmere have twice as many buses as trains.

[HappyTrainGuy]

Two stations that have a frequency better than the half hourly trains. Big whoop in the overall scheme of things.

[somebody]

Two stations that have a frequency better than the half hourly trains. Big whoop in the overall scheme of things.

None of that was the point.

The point was that you need to have better rail services.

[Gazza]

Gazza, let's say a BUZ costs $ 6 million to run each year (probs an overestimate).

10 BUZ = 60 million per year

500 million divided by 60 = 8 years

CityGlider is $5 Mil per year though

The weekly span of the glider is 12% more than a normal BUZ (Due to the 24 operation on Friday and Saturday) but at the same time its only 34 mins end to end (140 for instance takes 52 mins, 444 takes an hour, 120 takes 49 mins)
I think it would have to be approaching $6 mil or more for some routes.

Anyway, I guess the point is, $500 mil for a bit of infrastructure might sound a lot (I think it's just that Eastern Busway that was bad value for money, $500 mil gets a nice bit of rail such as the Springfield line)
But you only have to pay it once, and it should be right for years, with a bit of maintenance.

It wouldn't be very fun if we got 10 BUZes, but they all stopped running in 8 years time once the $500 mil ran out.

[somebody]

444 takes longer and yet is (slightly) shorter?  That's a fun fact.

There is the fares retained by the service increase as well as the discounted cash flow effect which means that the cost of the 10 BUZes over 8 years is actually less than $500million in 2012 dollars.

[Gazza]

There is the fares retained by the service increase as well as the discounted cash flow effect which means that the cost of the 10 BUZes over 8 years is actually less than $500million in 2012 dollars.

At the same time, some busway segments help make the routes on it cheaper to run (That's if they use it in the first place lol!) so a similar effect from the presence of a busway.

I'm not trying to turn this into a shitfight between either option, we need BUZes, but at the same time good infrastructure makes a big difference too.

But what I do think is important is to avoid confusing one off capital projects with ongoing expenditure like running a BUZ....Unless you are going to cost both over their lifespan equally.

[somebody]

There have been some good projects - e.g. original SEB, Northern Busway as far as Federation St, Ferny Grove duplication (arguable K-FG), Ormeau-Coomera and Helensvale-Robina duplications, Boggo Rd busway. Other projects have had less clear benefits, e.g. Eastern Busway, S2K triple.

[Gazza]

Other projects have had less clear benefits, e.g. Eastern Busway, S2K triple.

I think the S2K triple is a sort of 'Down payment' on the future...Obviously they acknowledge a 3rd track for much of the Beenleigh line is needed, but they only had the funds/inclinement to do part of it (Much like the partial duplication on the Ferny Grove Line, or the partial duplication on the SC line etc etc)
A bit hopeless, would rather the Govt focus on working line by line, bringing each up to scratch, and then move on.

[somebody]

Other projects have had less clear benefits, e.g. Eastern Busway, S2K triple.

I think the S2K triple is a sort of 'Down payment' on the future...Obviously they acknowledge a 3rd track for much of the Beenleigh line is needed, but they only had the funds/inclinement to do part of it (Much like the partial duplication on the Ferny Grove Line, or the partial duplication on the SC line etc etc)
A bit hopeless, would rather the Govt focus on working line by line, bringing each up to scratch, and then move on.

Queenslander!

With an appropriate timetable, you could have done basically everything that is done now without the triple.  Peak:
4tph all to Kuraby
4tph Gold Coast
4tph Beenleigh limited.

[#Metro]

Anyway, I guess the point is, $500 mil for a bit of infrastructure might sound a lot (I think it's just that Eastern Busway that was bad value for money, $500 mil gets a nice bit of rail such as the Springfield line)
But you only have to pay it once, and it should be right for years, with a bit of maintenance.

It wouldn't be very fun if we got 10 BUZes, but they all stopped running in 8 years time once the $500 mil ran out.

Disagree in this case.
Going via Deshon Street would have had similar time saving benefits without the cost.
Time savings on the E Busway are offset by slowing down buses on the SE Busway at new lights plus increased congestion at Cultural Centre, plus when services increase they will flow directly into a very congested busway...
Buranda already has a busway and a train station located on top of that.
Spending the money on services would have increased patronage far more than the infrastructure project - I daresay a higher cost benefit ratio for service improvement would have resulted, and this would have been magnified by the network effect as well.

[somebody]

IIRC the Eastern Busway is about 3 minutes faster on the timetable than going via Deshon St.

[#Metro]

Is that 3 minutes worth $500 million?

[somebody]

Is that 3 minutes worth $500 million?

NO.

But the money is spent now.  It's too late.

[techblitz]

@ least we got stones corner bus station and im sure the route 209 uq bound passengers wouldnt be complaining.

[somebody]

Agree with the 209 - the major beneficiary of the EB.

[Gazza]

Anyway, I guess the point is, $500 mil for a bit of infrastructure might sound a lot (I think it's just that Eastern Busway that was bad value for money, $500 mil gets a nice bit of rail such as the Springfield line)
But you only have to pay it once, and it should be right for years, with a bit of maintenance.

It wouldn't be very fun if we got 10 BUZes, but they all stopped running in 8 years time once the $500 mil ran out.

Disagree in this case.
Going via Deshon Street would have had similar time saving benefits without the cost.
Time savings on the E Busway are offset by slowing down buses on the SE Busway at new lights plus increased congestion at Cultural Centre, plus when services increase they will flow directly into a very congested busway...
Buranda already has a busway and a train station located on top of that.
Spending the money on services would have increased patronage far more than the infrastructure project - I daresay a higher cost benefit ratio for service improvement would have resulted, and this would have been magnified by the network effect as well.

True, but you cant tar all infrastructure spending with the same brush just because of that one crappy project.

[somebody]

I agree with the comments about there being a rail culture in Sydney which is lacking in Brisbane.  I think there is one in Melbourne but I haven't spent much time there.

Sydney CBD workers (googled Ration of Sydney CBD commuters)

45% 112,000 by train (Remember 1m use the Cityrail includfng Hunter Valley daily, so 11% go to Syd CBD)
19% 50,000 by car
18% 50,000 by bus
rest by ferry, feet, bike, helicopter etc

I could not find Brisbane, but what ever it is, I highly doubt it matches above in % terms and its got nothing to do with peak hour frequencies. I'd say bus is closer to 50%.

regards
Shane

I think that's Sydney City Council area workers - not the same as CBD workers.

[#Metro]

True, but you cant tar all infrastructure spending with the same brush just because of that one crappy project.

No of course not (so I agree with you on that). There has been a LOT of spending on concrete, not that much on actual services (esp. trains). BUZ is good but that is a rolling program over the last decade and we still don't have the full complement of BUZ or the proper priority measures required to make it work (T2 on Old Cleveland, Coronation and Gympie Roads for example).

[#Metro]

Why do we need to nail down any govt on selling something, as customers we want service, as taxpayers we want value for money. As long as these two remain or better still, private or public does it matter to the user or taxpayer?

I agree, and it irritates me when people WRONGLY describe it as "selling something". Railway privatisation by and large is NOT a sale of an asset any more than renting your house out to a tenant for 12 months is a "sale".

There are examples of well run public run systems (Perth), badly run public systems (Sydney, Adelaide), well run private systems (Melbourne, Hong Kong) and badly run private systems (Auckland).