Concession Fares for Unemployed People

[Antoniolino]

Brisbane is the only city in Australia that does not grant Concession fares for unemployed people.

This is compounded by the fact that bus and train fares in Brisbane are far more expensive than other capital cities.  So if you are unemployed in Brisbane you can't afford to catch public transport.  This results in terrible isolation for some of the most disadvantaged people.  People cannot visit support networks, their friends and family, and people are restricted in doing the old tried and true jobseeking method of putting on a shirt and tie and doorknocking.

Consider the following table which I put together from the various metro trans internet sites (note, Bris fare is now 15% higher further compounding unaffordability):

First, look at the fares.  Brisbane is the most expensive and there is no concession.  If you are unemployed in any other city you pay half of the amount listed.  Second, look at the size of the zones.  8 or 10 km for a zone 1 compared to 2 km.  So, for example, if you are unemployed in Brisbane $3.90 gets you max 4km.  In Melbourne $1.90 gets you max 20km (thats putting aside the fact the Melbourne fare is in effect a return).

You can see where I'm going.  No concession on the most expensive fares results in unaffordability for unemployed people.  (I won't even start on low-paid workers with families)

Its a scandal.  

[ozbob]

Interesting that calls to extend concession travel to Health Care Card holders continues to be ignored in Queensland.  Many, including our group have made constant calls public and direct to have this changed.  This is an issue that may will figure in the 2012 State Election Campaign ...

Extending the two journey cap to all concession go card holders (including Health Card Card holders) would be a sensible thing to do in the interim.  Interim meaning what will be ' ticketing policy changes '  if any announced during the election campaign.  At the moment, all the opposition has committed to is the status quo essentially, with one minor change ( the 9 journey cap instead of 10 ).  Not really addressing the problems, base fares are too high and there is a lack of proper concession support.

[ozbob]

scuse me bob, is there a way I can paste the table in the post or can someone do it, I'm no computer gun.  Also there are 2 identical tables in the doc because I cut them in half on an A4 sheet to distribute, thanks.

There is BBC (bulletin board code) for tables see --> http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?action=help;page=post#bbc  scrolldown the list till you get to tables.

The alternate is to convert your word doc to a pdf, save the pdf as an image and post the image.  Hold on a minute and I will do that for you as an example.

Posted on your OP (original post).

[Antoniolino]

Thanks for that bob, would have taken me half a day.

[Gazza]

Yeah, there should be concessions for low/no income earners. Thats the point right? Social equity.

Second, look at the size of the zones.  8 or 10 km for a zone 1 compared to 2 km.  So, for example, if you are unemployed in Brisbane $3.90 gets you max 4km.  In Melbourne $1.90 gets you max 20km

I think the size of Z1 in Brisbane is unnecessarily small, and seems to be more about adding an extra zone for people arriving right in the CBD. Making 1+2 our Zone 1 would be better possibly.
The thing with Melbourne is if you dare venture beyond Z1, its a $3 hit at full fare. In Brisbane it's about 50c (25c Concession) rise per zone.

In Melbourne $1.90 gets you max 20km (thats putting aside the fact the Melbourne fare is in effect a return).

Provided you can get everything done in 2h, which might be difficult if you are going to a job interview, handing out resumes etc.
If you are in the outer suburbs, where either A) going to the CBD will swallow up most of the 2h in travel time, or B) traveling just within suburbia will eat a lot of the 2h due to low frequency circuitous buses.

[Antoniolino]

Those points are not wrong gaze, but they are distractions.

Think about what an unemployed person has to do or wants to do in a day.  Head to centrelink, head out to a job interview or 2 we'll say, go to the shop, visit a family member or friend.  Whats that?, say 6 trips.  I'll continue my Preston V Moorooka example.  If you are in Preston you'll buy a daily Zone 1 ticket at half price, (last I looked about $3.50-$4?), so you going to pay $4 bucks odd to do what you have to do for the day.

In Brisbane, geez what will you pay say 2 X 2 zone trips and 4X single zone trips.  What would that add up to? $25 odd?

$4 odd v $25 odd.  (sorry for my imperfect pricing, but I think its thereabouts)

[#Metro]

Thos points are not wrong gaze, but they are distractions.

Think about what an unemployed has to do or wants to do in a day.  Head to centreline, head out to a job interview or 2 we'll say, go to the shop, visit a family member or friend.  Whats that?, say 6 trips.  I'll continue my Preston V Moorooka example.  If you are in Preston you'll buy a daily Zone 1 ticket at half price, (last I looked about $3.50-$4?), so you going to pay $4 bucks odd to do what you have to do for the day.

In Brisbane, geez what will you pay say 2 X 2 zone trips and 4X single zone trips.  What would that add up to? $25 odd?

$4 odd v $25 odd.  (sorry for my imperfect pricing, but I think its thereabouts)

I don't agree that entire fares should be reduced for everyone just to benefit some people.
It is not specific enough. Why give discounts to people (everyone) a la blanket, who do not need it?

Discounts should go to people who do need it - therefore I would simply apply discount to health care card holders etc, rather than drop entire fares for everyone.

The second issue is point of application - does it have to be TransLink that reduces the fares or should it be centrelink that adds a transport allowance to job seekers receiving payment?

[Gazza]

And if we did give them the concession, they would be capped at 2 journeys per day anyway, so they wouldn't be stuck spending $25 thankfully.

[#Metro]

Concession fares for unemployed - agreed, this should be done here.

Radius of zone one - well how important or relevant is this? There is a difference between travelling one zone and in zone one.
And I think even if zone one is not big (2km) that is actually walkable and cycleable, yes PT is expensive, but why can't someone walk?

As for availability of return and dailies - er, I don't really agree these should come back. Use Go Card.

Weekly cap DOES exist- in de facto form 10 journeys then free.

[Antoniolino]

And if we did give them the concession, they would be capped at 2 journeys per day anyway, so they wouldn't be stuck spending $25 thankfully.

That would be a great outcome and its what should happen, half price fares, 2 trip cap even better, but you do agree the current situation renders public transport too expensive for unemployed people.

OK tramtrain, forget the weekly, I concede the point, but from the perspective of unemployed people, returns and dailies are still relevant.  The point is other cities A) have concessions, B) have cheepers fares in the first place, and C) has some flexible fare options that suit unemployed people's situation.

If the 2 cap concession were granted, it would as you suggest Gaz, in effect do the same job as a daily. 

[Set in train]

Not sure why Antoniolino continues comparing Preston with Moorooka, Preston is a lot further out than Moorooka. Why? Let us know, would like an arguement to engage in, not a parallel debate.

[Barbar]

I support the introduction of a half price concession fare for unemployed Queensland folk who hold the Health Care Card. With the HCC re-issued on a 3 monthly basis, fare eligibility would be simple to track.....its a pity Queensland political parties aren't willing to address this issue..would it not be a welcome initiative for Queensland's World Class public transport network?   

[ozbob]

I support the introduction of a half price concession fare for unemployed Queensland folk who hold the Health Care Card. With the HCC re-issued on a 3 monthly basis, fare eligibility would be simple to track.....its a pity Queensland political parties aren't willing to address this issue..would it not be a welcome initiative for Queensland's World Class public transport network?   

Indeed!

[Set in train]

I support the introduction of a half price concession fare for unemployed Queensland folk who hold the Health Care Card. With the HCC re-issued on a 3 monthly basis, fare eligibility would be simple to track.....its a pity Queensland political parties aren't willing to address this issue..would it not be a welcome initiative for Queensland's World Class public transport network?   

Spot on, looking at the HCC requirements, surely you would be unemployed or with little spare cash to afford full fare. It makes sense.

[dwb]

Brisbane is the only city in Australia that does not grant Concession fares for unemployed people.

This is compounded by the fact that bus and train fares in Brisbane are far more expensive than other capital cities.  So if you are unemployed in Brisbane you can't afford to catch public transport.  This results in terrible isolation for some of the most disadvantaged people.  People cannot visit support networks, their friends and family, and people are restricted in doing the old tried and true jobseeking method of putting on a shirt and tie and doorknocking.

Consider the following table which I put together from the various metro trans internet sites (note, Bris fare is now 15% higher further compounding unaffordability):

First, look at the fares.  Brisbane is the most expensive and there is no concession.  If you are unemployed in any other city you pay half of the amount listed.  Second, look at the size of the zones.  8 or 10 km for a zone 1 compared to 2 km.  So, for example, if you are unemployed in Brisbane $3.90 gets you max 4km.  In Melbourne $1.90 gets you max 20km (thats putting aside the fact the Melbourne fare is in effect a return).

You can see where I'm going.  No concession on the most expensive fares results in unaffordability for unemployed people.  (I won't even start on low-paid workers with families)

Its a scandal.  

One of the vibes I get from your posts is a misunderstanding of how go card works, how transfers work and the benefits of having a ticketing system with generous transfer rules and one that is multimodal and cross operator.  I personally think that in itself is a pretty fundamental quality criteria of a mature transit system that we take for granted in SEQ (note that I'm not saying the system here has all the criteria, but it does have that one!).

Go card does not charge per trip, being from point a to point b, Go card charges per journey!

That could be between multiple points including returns as long as the all transfers occur within an hour. In your example some of those "returns" would in fact be considered a single journey under Go card, rather than a "return" in another jurisdiction (hence be cheaper here).

If they do not, then that is not a journey, it is two journeys and should be charged as such. Really spending more than one hour between services accurately indicates it is two journeys, not one.

Each of those journeys to and from the appointment, for example a work interview could include multiple FREE transfers, for example between a train and a bus. This is a massive benefit, and something which doesn't easily exist in some places such as Sydney. Also you don't have to think about it, the system works it all out for you... so really it is simpler, you don't need to plan in advance, just put a little credit on your card... less than a pack of smokes!

It seems to me that many unemployed people should be able to take advantage of offpeak journeys, so discussing peak paper fares here is rather pointless.

The most important things to achieve your objectives seems to me to be:
a) demand better offpeak fare discount
b) to extend concessional entitlement to Health Care Card holders
c) generally improve the frequency and reliability of the network.

Each of these three things are consistently argued for by the forum.

If you joined us here in articulating a need for say a 30-35% offpeak discount, and for the extension of concession validity to include Centrelink Health Care Card, then a two zone concessional offpeak fare would be $1.34 in 2013 (ie under the planned further 15% rise) and could include up to four different services including train, bus and ferry (3 transfers). That is well within the range of ridiculously cheap and inclusive across the community (if you're homeless you've little point for bus travel, if you're simply unemployed then you need to make $1.34 happen)...

In many places a "return" is double the cost of a single, in SEQ, a "single" is a "journey" and can include multiple services... if each transfer is made within one hour of the previous tag off, then the last transfer can commence up to 5.5hrs after first boarding! Here under go, if you miss the hour transfer then you simply pay the 2nd journey, taking you up to 2x single cost.

I do NOT support two trip per day capping for a host of reasons.

I do NOT support decreasing the number of zones for a host of reasons.

I do NOT support bring back "weeklies" or "monthlies" as have previously existed for a host of reasons. {in effect a weekly does currently exist with 10-then-free per week}.

[Barbar]

I support the introduction of a half price concession fare for unemployed Queensland folk who hold the Health Care Card. With the HCC re-issued on a 3 monthly basis, fare eligibility would be simple to track.....its a pity Queensland political parties aren't willing to address this issue..would it not be a welcome initiative for Queensland's World Class public transport network?   

UPDATE: I recently contacted all Queensland political parties on this issue and received zero support, even Bill Shorten wasn't interested  ... all these pollies just live in other world  !!

[Gazza]

No reply, or a reply with a no?

[Barbar]

No reply, or a reply with a no?

Both State Labor & LNP offices replied but didn't directly address the issue; both just mentioned the go card off peak and frequent user discounts as being "ways to reduce the cost of living ".

Shorten (or one of his office dudes) replied saying it was a State issue..like doh...this is from a guy who flatly refuses to raise the Newstart allowance while spending $150,000 fitting out his Moonee Ponds office and racking up a $397,630 bill on overseas travel, car, printing and office costs, in the six months to June 30 last year, but hey, at least he's doing his bit in keeping all those associated employed. 

[#Metro]

http://www.centrelink.gov.au/internet/internet.nsf/payments/newstart_rates.htm

Note: You may not receive Newstart Allowance straight away if you have the following funds available to spend:

$3,000 if you are single

MAXIMUM fortnightly payment

single, no children   $486.80 (~ $200 per week - anyone tried to rent anything or live anywhere on that amount?)
single, with a dependent child or children   $526.60
single, aged 60 or over, after 9 continuous months on payment   $526.60
partnered (each)   $439.40
single principal carer granted exemption for foster caring/relative (non-parent) caring under a court order/home schooling/distance education/large family   $641.50

[p858snake]

(~ $200 per week - anyone tried to rent anything or live anywhere on that amount?)

That is where rental assistance come intos play... Yet another payment that Centerlink has available.

(And i'm someone who is currently trying to claim Newstart)

[dwb]

The role of this forum is not to debate the pros/cons for the existence of a welfare net/services/state.

Yet, I believe it to be strongly within the realm to discuss the validity of concessions... they exist within a framework, I don't think it is such a drain to acknowledge the existence of this framework. Social inclusion is an incredibly important societal goal and I am one upwardly mobile professional who will not sit by and accept the Today Tonight perspective on dole bludgers and consequently seek to limit concessions which every other state gives out/ remove further concessions... especially where fares have risen so rapidly.

[ozbob]

Media release 16 March 2012

SEQ: Queensland unemployed miss the bus, train and ferry!

RAIL Back On Track (http://backontrack.org) a web based community support group for rail and public transport and an advocate for public transport passengers has called for the next Government to support concessions for all Health Care Card holders on Public Transport.

Robert Dow, Spokesman for RAIL Back On Track said:

"Public Transport's main product is freedom, the mobility to move around and go where you want. Unfortunately for people who cannot afford to pay the tolls of roads and road tunnels in Brisbane, and cannot afford to burn petrol sitting in congestion, or the high cost of cars, life will just continue to get harder as they are left behind while the major parties leave them stranded."

"Why are the the LNP and ALP offering discounts to commuters who obviously have jobs to go to and pay them wages, but then turn up their nose and claim that it is too expensive to offer concessions for those who don't have jobs but are making an effort to get off welfare and search for one? Or perhaps they have just forgotten?"

"Queensland is the only state in Australia not to offer public transport fare concessions to the unemployed. RAIL Back On track supports QCOSS in their aim to secure concession fares for those who need it most (1)."

"To qualify for a health care card, you must be on Centrelink or not on Centrelink and earning a *maximum* $24 960 or $480 per week (2). We challenge any politician in Queensland to scrape by on $480 a week or less and get around on public transport to search for a job and go to job interviews and and pay full adult fare. It is $4.24 to travel three zones."

"If people who need it most can't get around, the only other options for them are to walk everywhere or get a bicycle, and these have their own restrictions on freedom of movement."

"Would you be able to scrape by on less than $480 a week? We didn't think so either! The sooner people have the freedom to move around so they can find jobs, the sooner they are off welfare, the better society and taxpayers are, and the better off the individuals are too."

"To claim that it is 'too expensive' is short sighted, and neglects the wider cost savings and benefits to society and taxpayers that occur when people get jobs, earn an income, pay taxes and and are off welfare."

"How is that going to happen if they can't even afford to travel to the job interview?"

References:

1. Call for unemployed to get transport discounts  http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/queensland/state-election-2012/call-for-unemployed-to-get-transport-discounts-20120312-1uuas.html

2. Low Income Health Care Card - income test (Centrelink)  http://www.centrelink.gov.au/internet/internet.nsf/payments/conc_cards_iat.htm

Contact:

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track http://backontrack.org

[Barbar]

Nice media release Bob  ....such a shame only the Greens are offering support ...ah well..seems this issue is destined to return to the political too hard box along with anything remotely associated with PT on the Sunshine Coast   

[ozbob]

http://www.qcoss.org.au/qcoss-cost-living-report-2012

QCOSS Cost of Living Report 2012

The QCOSS Cost of Living report released today calls for targeted assistance for those needing it the most. It also reveals that many low income households still struggle to afford a basic standard of living. And the report calls for energy and transport concessions to be extended to all Health Care Card users.

Income and expenses of three sample low income households is a key focus in the report. The households include a single parent with two children, a single unemployed person and a family with two parents and two children.

"In the last 12 months there has been some improvement in the circumstances of all three example households," says QCOSS CEO Mark Henley. "However, two of the three households are still unable to afford a basic standard of living.

"Further targeted assistance for people on low incomes is needed. A good first step would be to immediately extend transport and energy concessions to all Health Care Card holders. This should be part of a comprehensive review of government concessions to ensure the people who need support most are getting it," says Mark.

QCOSS continues to call for a minimum standard of living for all people in Queensland through the A Fairer Queensland campaign. This minimum standard of living means fair concessions on essentials such as transport, energy and water.

"We estimate that 10 to 12 per cent of households are struggling with a basic cost of living," says QCOSS President Karyn Walsh. "They face tough choices every day about what to go without. Unemployed people face a particular struggle. Newstart is not enough for survival let alone providing enough resources to actively seek work.

"Affordable housing is also important to create A Fairer Queensland where no-one get left behind. Families on low incomes struggle to rent housing that is decent, secure and appropriate. A Fairer Queensland asks for an investment in 45,000 new affordable housing dwellings by 2020.

"The QCOSS Cost of Living Report shows housing affordability is a particular problem. As well is being a problem in southeast Queensland it is getting particularly worse in regions exposed to the mining boom. In areas like Mackay, Gladstone and Mount Isa there has been a massive increase in cost," says Karyn.

================

Sent to all outlets:

29th June 2012

Help needed for disadvantaged

Letter to the editor, published Couriermail 21st May 2012 page 22

Help needed for disadvantaged

Our new State Government has trumpeted that public transport fares will now increase 7.5 per cent instead of the planned 15 per cent for 2013 and 2014.

Fare increases of 7.5 per cent are still much greater than CPI, pension increases and so forth.

On top of the 65 per cent increases over the last four years fare affordability is reaching a crisis point for many.

I support the Queensland Council of Social Service which has lobbied extensively for concession public transport fares be extended to all health care card holders and the unemployed.

Robert Dow
Goodna 

[ozbob]

Karen Walsh from QCOSS was interviewed on 612 ABC Radio Brisbane yesterday afternoon host Craig Zonca.  The tweet below was read out on air following the interview.

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Twitter

Robert Dow ‏@Robert_Dow

@612brisbane Qld is the only state not to give concession Public Transport to all health care card holders ... go QCOSS!