Letters to Minister for Transport Queensland

[mufreight]

 Further letter to Assistant Minister for Public Transport Mr Steve Minnikin posted 23rd Octiober 2012

                              
The Honourable Mr Steve Minnikin,                  22nd October 2012 .
Assistant Minister for Public Transport,
GPO Box 2644,
BRISBANE,
Queensland, 4001.

Dear Sir,

   I thank you for your letter in relation to the failure of the Government of which you are yourself a member to construct the station at Ellengrove on the now under construction Richlands to Springfield extension of the Springfield rail line.

Your response is unfortunately a most pathetic exercise in political spin and if that response is the Ministers considered response then the credibility and competence of both the Minister and the Director General of the Transport and Main Roads, Mt Caltabiano is greatly in question..

As a voter, taxpayer and frequent commuter the excuse that the finances of the Government at this time due to the ineptitude of the previous government has worn very thin in respect of credibility as a justification for only half completing infrastructure projects.

It would seem that the current Government is intent on replicating the mistakes of your predecessors due to your approach to the provision of infrastructure by your do it on the cheap omitting major components of these projects.

As an example under the previous Government the construction of the Corinda to Darra quadruplication saw the then government fail to construct the fourth platform at Oxley and wire the fourth track between Corinda and the crossovers at Pannard Street, between Oxley and Darra.

The estimated cost of the works required to provide the platform at Oxley, the missing link in the overhead wiring and the signaling was between $18 and $20 million.  The transport departments own forward predictions say that this section of trackage will need to be electrified with the platform constructed at Oxley to meet the number of services required to operate commuter services by 2016.

The current estimated costs of the construction of the fourth platform at Oxley, the electrification of the missing overhead, the provision of the required crossover at Corinda to enable commuter operation on the fourth currently unwired line and the changes to the signaling at Corinda are in the region of some $53 million.  No matter how the figures are viewed the alleged saving of $20 million look somewhat pathetic when the "saving" will if the required works were to be carried out today cost $53 million to rectify, by 2016 perhaps at least a third more than that $70 million.

In the case of Ellengrove the station there could be constructed on the proposed site in a basic form rather than the as another Tajmahal monument to some architect and the Minister who approved it.  As a greenfield project the station could be constructed for considerably less than $5 million.  Once the line is brought into service the cost of construction will almost treble and the works will restrict and cause disruption to the operation of the services to Springfield and Springfield Central.

Again once more a further example of a half baked decision that will not save a cent but will add to the expenditure needed for the infrastructure.

As to the provision of the parking facilities for commuters might I respectfully suggest that the expert advisers who have apparently assured you that the parking provisions at Springfield Central and Springfield should have their heads removed from the sand and that they should be replaced by transport planners who have some knowledge of the job that we as taxpayers are paying excessive salaries for this level of incompetence, rather than provide reports crafted to the needs of political expediency.

The construction of the station and parking for some 800 to 1000 cars at that station would take considerable load off the Centenary Highway at a minimum cost.

The expectation that the provision of a total of 300 parking spaces between Springfield Central and Springfield is a pathetic joke as an inspection of the parking at Richlands, Gailes, Wacol, Darra and to a lesser extent Oxley will rapidly reveal.

It is regrettable that your response was less than of assistance.

Public transport was a key issue in the past election and it remains obvious that it will now be a key issue in the next election.  The Newman Government claims that it will improve the financial position of the state by eliminating waste and more effective control of expenditure on public infrastructure.

If the decision not to construct the station and parking facilities at Ellengrove at this time is an example of the Newman Government saving money the people of this state will remain as badly off or worse off than we were under the previous government.

I and many other commuters and voters await your further considered response with considerable interest,



   I thank you for your time,
,

         

[ozbob]

 

[Gazza]

$5 million.  Once the line is brought into service the cost of construction will almost treble and the works will restrict and cause disruption to the operation of the services to Springfield and Springfield Central.

Good letter, but can we change the $5 Million to a more realistic figure.
Or at least include supporting documentation, $5 million is simply not enough for a station and $1000 spaces, even in a nice Greenfield situation.

A basic station is like the $9.2 million Victoria Park station in Perth http://www.pta.wa.gov.au/Projects/CompletedProjects/VictoriaParkStation/tabid/78/Default.aspx

You might be able to go a little cheaper if you removed the roof, but the station is hardly a Taj Mahal, is it? And it only has a small car park, so the cost doesn't factor in 1000 or so spaces.

I reckon this would be a good line to add:

The beauty of being elected to Government is the ability to overturn previous Labor decisions.
Just because Labor were planning on completing the project a certain way does not compell the LNP to follow helplessly.

[Gazza]

Furthermore:

http://www.pta.wa.gov.au/Projects/CarParkExpansionProject/tabid/223/Default.aspx

In 2008 the State Government committed $50 million to add a further 3000 parking bays on the Joondalup and Mandurah lines.

Dividing that figure by three to give 1000 spaces gives 16.6 Mil for the car park.

Additional funding of $8.3 million will deliver about 1300 more bays on the Fremantle, Midland and Armadale lines by end-2013.

This seems a bit cheaper thankfully. 8.3 mil divided by 1.2 is around $7 Mil for the car park.

I think about $15 mil is more realistic for the station.

Trackstar were able to add Springfield to the project in their tender at a cost of $20 million. Lets not forget that was almost not included too!
www.trackstar.com.au/index.php?s=file_download&id=20

Q What will it cost to construct the project?
A The project will cost $475 million to construct.
Springfield Station will cost approximately $20 million.
Springfield Central Station will cost approximately $40 million.

Ellen Grove might be $15-20 Mil....Cheaper site to build the station on, but more labour and materials needed for a car park 10 times bigger.

Point is, the best price Trackstar could do an extra station "packaged in" with the works is $20 mil, so why on earth they could do another station, even a simple one with the largest car park, for $5 mil is not really realistic.

[#Metro]

I agree with Gazza. $10 - 15 million seems closer to the mark.

[mufreight]

The figure for $5 million came from an engineer for the basic station consisting oftwo side platforms, a subway with both stairs and ramps rather than lifts and the car park on what is currently railway land for 280 car spaces.
The undeveloped land accross Considine Street is also greenfield and would be a minimum resumption cost  and provide space for a ground level car park of unlimites size, but these additional 700+ car spaces are an additional cost so I would thing that as part of the existing build program the $5 million would be reasonably realistic.
There would be no set up costs and the crews and equipment to carry out the work are already on site.

[Gazza]

The figure for $5 million came from an engineer for the basic station consisting oftwo side platforms, a subway with both stairs and ramps rather than lifts and the car park on what is currently railway land for 280 car spaces.

Yes, you spoke to an Engineer, and for sure you could do the concrete for those things for $5 mil.

What about the ticket office building, toilets, seating, lighting & PIDs, feeder bus shelters, platform shelters? Engineers don't cost that stuff in.

The undeveloped land across Considine Street is also greenfield and would be a minimum resumption cost  and provide space for a ground level car park of unlimites size, but these additional 700+ car spaces are an additional cost so I would thing that as part of the existing build program the $5 million would be reasonably realistic.

Woah, Don't change the goalposts mate, you said in your letter.

As a greenfield project the station could be constructed for considerably less than $5 million.
And....
The construction of the station and parking for some 800 to 1000 cars at that station would take considerable load off the Centenary Highway at a minimum cost.

"Considerably less" than $5 mil would be $4 to $4.5 mil right?

So you have said We can do a station and 800 spaces for considerably $5 mil, even though the Engineer said it would be $5 Mil for the station and only 280 spaces.
720 spaces aren't just built for free.

The undeveloped land accross Considine Street is also greenfield and would be a minimum resumption cost  and provide space for a ground level car park of unlimites size, but these additional 700+ car spaces are an additional cost so I would thing that as part of the existing build program the $5 million would be reasonably realistic.

Just checked on realestate.com.au and current going rate for land in Ellen Grove is around $390k per acre ($153k per hectare)

You need an average of 26.5sqm per car in a typical 90 degree car park (Allowance for spaces and aisles)
720 spaces needs 19080sqm.
So a land cost of $1.8 Million.

And then the actual cost per bay
Don't have 2012 Rawlinsons to hand, but found an extract from the 2008 version:
http://pza.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/building_costs.pdf

~$85/sqm so $1.6 Million.
~$3000 per car also cited which comes out at $2.16 Million

Lets say $1.9 Million.

So lets say $3.7 Mil for car park across the road.

$5 Mil station basic civil works and first$280 bays.

Up to $8.7 Mil so far.

You're easily tipping over $10 mil once we start actually fitting out the station.

This is double the $5 Mil estimate. Hey Mu, with actual prices being at least double your estimate  I reckon there's a job for you in project management with the Govt!

If you're going to fire vitriol at me for not having my facts straight, how about you have yours straight hey?

The key point is, an actual finished station cannot be built for $5 mil, I'm sorry to say.

Surely common sense tells you that if Springfield is $20 mil and Ellen Grove is $15 Mil less at $5 mil the figures aren't adding up.

Eliminating lift shafts and having ramps instead doesn't save you $15 Mil!

[HappyTrainGuy]

The figure for $5 million came from an engineer for the basic station consisting oftwo side platforms, a subway with both stairs and ramps rather than lifts and the car park on what is currently railway land for 280 car spaces.

Yes, you spoke to an Engineer, and for sure you could do the concrete for those things for $5 mil.

What about the ticket office building, toilets, seating, lighting & PIDs, feeder bus shelters, platform shelters? Engineers don't cost that stuff in.

You forgot the multiple network coms to the QR network which aren't cheap such as the real time information displayed on PIDS, realtime positioning of trains in the station offices, radio coms, internet (eg Email and internal communication links), CCTV feed uplink, CCTV coverage, station intercom system and a host of other stuff related to the network side.

[mufreight]

Even if as you suggest the figure went to $10 million it is still considerably less than what it would cost to construct  on an in service rail line.
As for the station communications equipment the assumption is that most of that would piggyback off the systems set up for Springfield and Springfield Central.
Incidentaly the engineer who gave the estimated figure of $5 million was a senior engineer on the Mandurah project and has now come home to Brisbane to work on another major rail related construction project so one would assume that he was not just blowing smoke like some.
The other cost saving is that it would take more commuters off the road system, in itself a major saving.

[Gazza]

^No, not $10 mil, at least $10 mil.

I still stand by $15 mil being a more accurate figure, based on what gets built in the real world and not fantasyland.

Well, you need to change your letter, or whoever reads it will laugh at its inaccuracy. Please don't send it off with the $5 mil figure if you actually want to get anywhere in this debate with the Minister.

Can you name me a single urban station in Australia done for 5 mil?
You can't because its fiction.

Here's some examples from Adelaide, a place which does stuff pretty cost effectivley:

http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/stations-to-have-40m-makeover/story-e6frea6u-1226083753990

Nearly $16 million will be spent upgrading the Elizabeth railway station, $9.8 million on the Elizabeth South and Gawler stations and $13.8 million on the Munno Para station.

http://www.infrastructure.sa.gov.au/stations_upgrade_program/stations_upgrade_program/munno_para
Munno para is good example of a non taj mahal.
It was also built on a pre existing line, 60m away from the original station, so not a refit, but a full new station in effect.

it is still considerably less than what it would cost to construct  on an in service rail line.

But you greatly exaggerate this too!

I remember you quoting crazy figures in the past like it would cost 50 million to build it once the line is in operation.

Like it magically goes from $5 million, multiplies by TEN to become $50 million just because you'd have to run a replacement bus for a couple of weeks while you drop in some precast platform faces and crane in a bridge.

So $5 million for station according to you, and then $45 million for the railbus and construction inflation 

Is construction inflation running at 900% or something?

Give it up, everyone can see through your very rubbery costings. There's a job at treasury waiting.....

As for the station communications equipment the assumption is that most of that would piggyback off the systems set up for Springfield and Springfield Central.

The comms line is there, It still costs money to tap in and install and buy the equipment.

Incidentaly the engineer who gave the estimated figure of $5 million was a senior engineer on the Mandurah project and has now come home to Brisbane to work on another major rail related construction project so one would assume that he was not just blowing smoke like some.

Yes, but he still obviously only gave the costing for the 'concrete'  type civil works, not for a fully functioning station with passenger facilities. Can't you see that?

The other cost saving is that it would take more commuters off the road system, in itself a major saving.

Yes but that cost saving doesn't get given directly to the station construction contractor. You still have to give them the $15 million or so to build in the first place.

Youv'e still yet to explain why the contractor can build Springfield for $20 mil but Ellen Grove for 1/4 when the only difference is the elimination of lifts.

[HappyTrainGuy]

The communications would indeed feed into the existing network but there is still a good decent expense behind it. From adding the first new dark fibre optic cable to the existing network, protective cages for PIDs, setting up servers/hubs at the station right up to programming the CCTV alert system when the emergency intercom button on the platform is pressed.

[ozbob]

Yes Gazza and HTG, around $20M now for EG.  But when one considers the overall cost of the project, and the LNP focussed cost savings, I am confident that it could be done now if there was the will.

[Gazza]

True, but if we had a spare 20 mil lying around the legacy way bus connection could have been done for instance.

[ozbob]

True, but if we had a spare 20 mil lying around the legacy way bus connection could have been done for instance.

That was $55M Gazza ...  but point well made ...

[ozbob]

In fact, I suppose I should spill the beans here ...

OK, when Northern Link (Now Legacy Way) was launched, I was invited by the then Lord Mayor of Brisbane, Campbell Newman along for the launch.  At the launch there was the usual media and a few oddbods like myself.  The presentation went on and there were questions. I asked Mayor Newman, very directly, what were the arrangements to enable the bus system, that is connect Northern Link (now Legacy Way) with the INB. 

He looked at me, and said " we are still in negotiations ".  Now bare in mind that he had sent out a letter to all BCC ratepayers declaring there would be 2000 express buses a day.

That evening I had a phone call, from the Deputy Premier, I assume he had heard  that I had asked the question at the launch.

He said that the state government would not be funding the project. They would not give $50M for the bus connection.

Now this is where it gets really messy. This project has been funded by the FEDS as well. Why in the f**** did they not force these turkeys to enable it for the bus network???

f****!

[SurfRail]

Get onto Albo or Bernie Ripoll.

[ozbob]

Get onto Albo or Bernie Ripoll.

Good theory SR, but Bernie denies all culpability, Albo is our only hope .. 

[#Metro]

Clearly says 2000 buses - LOL, that's about the entire BT fleet...

Hahaha

Also, are trucks able to use the tunnel? Most would not as freight may contain dangerous goods (viz. Clem 7 where trucks are banned)...

[ozbob]

Freight should be on rail  .. but I digress ... 

[ozbob]

And now this might resonate with reality a little more ...



Media release 4 March 2012

SEQ: Legacy way's 2000 daily express buses - we don't believe it Campbell!

RAIL Back On Track (http://backontrack.org) a web based community support group for rail and public transport and an advocate for public transport passengers has highlighted the promise that 'bus users will be able to benefit with up to 2000 express buses able to use Northern Link each day' (1).

Robert Dow, Spokesman for RAIL Back On Track said:

"RAIL Back On Track at the time doubted claims whether 2000 'express' buses per day was truly genuine (see calculations below) and wondered if it was just 'transit-wash', which is using fringe benefits of public transport to curry up favour for a road project whose actual purpose is to provide more road space and resources for car travel (2)."

Calculations

2000 express buses
18 hours per day 2000 buses / 18 hours of service = 111 buses per hour on average
60 minutes in one hour = 3600 seconds in one hour
3600 seconds in one hour / 111 buses per hour
is a bus every 32 seconds
(or assuming all the trips are return trips, a bus a minute).

"One of the most audacious publicly obvious failings in Western Suburbs transport planning was boasting about making a $300 million dollar 'saving' on Legacy Way but then, in the same release, claiming that $50 million dollars could not be found for a bus interconnection to the busway to allow council's own buses to use the Legacy Way (Northern Link Tunnel!"

"The idea of public transport being able to use Legacy way appears to have been set up to fail and nothing but 'transit-wash'.

"Brisbane City Council is continuing its bizarre record of removing bus lanes from Brisbane's most unreliable road - Coronation Drive, so that its own bus services carrying its own ratepayers are all slowed down and bus operating costs for its own fleet are increased."

"Add to that multi million dollar high-visibility Maroon CityGliders that may symbolise improvement to public transport but on further analysis actually reveals that they add zero new mobility and duplicate existing high frequency services."

"RAIL Back On Track again calls for the total abandonment of 'balanced transport' policies and a shift to 'rebalanced transport' based around walking, cycling, buses, ferries and rail."

References

1. http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=4459.msg35456#msg35456

2. Greenwashing, Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenwashing

Contact:

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track http://backontrack.org