Inner Eastern Suburbs Rapid PT Blind Spot?

[SteelPan]

Am I the only person who thinks there's a blind spot in the Brisbane PT operations and existing future plans, to service the inner Eastern suburbs of this city?  ie, cbd, kangaroo pt, east brisbane, norman park, camp hill, carina, carindale etc.  NOTE: nothing sacred about my selections, others may be more suitable. 

It just seems to me alot of our PT doesn't really rapidly serve those regions. 

Is this "eastern suburbs line" a future subway option?

Interested in others thoughts.   :conf

[#Metro]

Personally I'd save the cash for frequency improvements.

In the case of East Brisbane however, there may be some merit in extending the busway from Wooloongabba through East Brisbane as that area is one way streets, and slow, slow, slow.

That said, there are so many competing priorities for concrete, it's hardly important.

[somebody]

Agree with TT.  Doesn't need concrete, just a 231 BUZ or something similar.

[SurfRail]

Eastern Busway (the proper one, not just the vestigial tail we are stuck with now).

[somebody]

Eastern Busway (the proper one, not just the vestigial tail we are stuck with now).

That's only relevant for the Old Cleveland Rd corridor.  Apart from the low utilisation of the Eastern Busway and the city stop locations I'm not actually sure what is the problem with this corridor?

SteelPan also asked about East Brisbane etc which is poorly served other than the ferries.

[SurfRail]

Eastern Busway (the proper one, not just the vestigial tail we are stuck with now).

That's only relevant for the Old Cleveland Rd corridor.  Apart from the low utilisation of the Eastern Busway and the city stop locations I'm not actually sure what is the problem with this corridor?

SteelPan also asked about East Brisbane etc which is poorly served other than the ferries.

Most of the locations mentioned are on or adjacent to the Eastern Busway.

East Brisbane can be fixed with a Wynnum Road BUZ, Stanley Road BUZ and a Bulimba BUZ and by running at least one via the Storey Bridge.

[SteelPan]

Obviously everyone is rightly entitled to their opinion - but seriously, to be honest, the idea of sticking a bus service on (Buz) strikes me as a suitable "Brissy" solution - for about the mid-1970's!   

[SurfRail]

Obviously everyone is rightly entitled to their opinion - but seriously, to be honest, the idea of sticking a bus service on (Buz) strikes me as a suitable "Brissy" solution - for about the mid-1970's!   

Well, the important thing is to supply a transit service, not a train. 

You decide what service characteristics are needed (span of hours, frequency etc), then you determine where it goes, then you determine what capacity is needed - then you decide what vehicle is involved.  For the Gold Coast Highway, that vehicle is a 300 passenger tram because of high population density, multiple activity centres en route and no strong peak direction (so good patronage flows in both directions all day long).  For the Wynnum Road and Old Cleveland Road corridors, I would be inclined to think buses, because the catchments are more sparsely populated, are highly peak-oriented and do not have a lot of major trip generators along the route - just the CBD at one end and several shopping centres/TAFEs along the way.

The whole point of RBoT, at least as I understand it, is to push this as the basis for service planning so we end up with rail as the back-bone of the network where it should be and running at the frequencies it should be, not just for the sake of putting rails down everywhere.  That is the sort of thing that goes on over at Failpage.

[#Metro]

Well, the important thing is to supply a transit service, not a train.

Absolutely. Bigger is not always better. Toronto has LESS rail infrastructure than Brisbane - 69 stations. We have 85 within the BCC area and 22 busway stations on top of that. We have more train lines than Toronto as well.

Keeping it simple and concentrated keeps their infrastructure maintainence and construction costs right down and the system is used ruthlessly to give extreme efficiency - the result? 70% farebox revenue and 5 minute frequencies all day until about 1.30 am in the morning.

[SteelPan]

I think, we're on totally different buses here.  You're really not addressing the issues.  The basis of my thread was the need to IMPROVE rapid, accessible public transit through the inner eastern suburbs of Brisbane.  Buses have not and are not doing that.  Getting from say the CBD to Kangaroo Pt/East Brisbane etc is way more complex than it needs to be.  These parts of Brisbane are well populated and part of the govt plan to offer "inner city" dynamic lifestyle living - another part of Brisbane suffering from 30yr old thinking, is the New Farm/Newstead region - again part of the govt driven plan to offer "inner city" dynamic lifestyle living. 

Most of  the forementioned regions already have some form of bus service, ferries, perhaps even a suburban rail line skirting them, but it just isn't delivering for growing numbers of people!

The private sector IS pouring, collectively, billions into stimulating the the "lifestyle" the govt planners are keen for these regions to deliver - the still missing ingredient - year in year out - is a suitably dynamic PT system!

Sorry, waiting for the odd bus to come around the corner, ain't fooling anyone anymore!   

[SurfRail]

I think, we're on totally different buses here.  You're really not addressing the issues.

Nor really are you, to be honest.  The purpose of public transport is to move as many people as quickly as possible.  There is nothing inherently wrong with using buses to do that if the capacity does not warrant anything more.

There is a difference between "issues" (ie I want people to be able to move around) and "positions" (ie I want a train).  Once is not necessarily connected with the other.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Getting_to_YES

The basis of my thread was the need to IMPROVE rapid, accessible public transit through the inner eastern suburbs of Brisbane.  Buses have not and are not doing that.

I think you are right.  However, the question that needs to be asked is "Why are buses - being operated as they are now - not doing that?", not "The current bus solution is not working, therefore no bus solution will work, so when can we expect a train?"

Getting from say the CBD to Kangaroo Pt/East Brisbane etc is way more complex than it needs to be.  These parts of Brisbane are well populated and part of the govt plan to offer "inner city" dynamic lifestyle living - another part of Brisbane suffering from 30yr old thinking, is the New Farm/Newstead region - again part of the govt driven plan to offer "inner city" dynamic lifestyle living.  Most of  the forementioned regions already have some form of bus service, ferries, perhaps even a suburban rail line skirting them, but it just isn't delivering for growing numbers of people!

I don't think there is anything "complicated" about getting to the city from the inner eastern suburbs.  Every single bus route goes to the CBD, and numerous bus routes go to Kangaroo Point.  None of them are frequent (no BUZ routes, crap frequencies out of peak especially at weekends) and they are subject to increasing congestion.  I think introducing simpler and more frequent services with on-road bus priority, and improving Cleveland line frequency, would largely address the problem.  Pouring enormous amounts of money into some other solution while leaving the crap bus system in place seems somehow wasteful.

The private sector IS pouring, collectively, billions into stimulating the the "lifestyle" the govt planners are keen for these regions to deliver - the still missing ingredient - year in year out - is a suitably dynamic PT system!

Sorry, waiting for the odd bus to come around the corner, ain't fooling anyone anymore!   

I agree.  The solution however is to make the bus network work much harder for commuters using the same or only slightly increased resources by making it easier to use and more attractive.  We are nowhere near the point where rail is justified for the inner eastern suburbs - there is a busway in train for the OC Rd corridor, the Cleveland line is nowhere near capacity and bus services immediately around the Cleveland line compete with it rather than feeding it.

Spend smart, not big if you can avoid it.

[somebody]

However, the question that needs to be asked is "Why are buses - being operated as they are now - not doing that?", not "The current bus solution is not working, therefore no bus solution will work, so when can we expect a train?"

Hear here!

[SurfRail]

^ GCRT went through some pretty rigorous analysis.  The initial studies just assumed LRT, then TransLink commissioned bus vs LRT work and the LRT option was clearly superior, mainly for capacity.  Public perception of quality transit = rail probably came into it, but that would not have been enough to push it over the line.

[SteelPan]

As I said at the start, the inner eastern suburbs of Brisbane are a blind spot for rapid transit.
No, buses are not the answer and simplisitc sweeping statements don't make them the answer.  Unless your a rep for the BCC or Translink of course!  
I'm all for getting people back on track, not back on an ineffective bus service!    

[SurfRail]

As I said at the start, the inner eastern suburbs of Brisbane are a blind spot for rapid transit.
No, buses are not the answer and simplisitc sweeping statements don't make them the answer.  Unless your a rep for the BCC or Translink of course!  
I'm all for getting people back on track, not back on an ineffective bus service!    

Why are buses not the answer for inner eastern Brisbane?  What's the alternative?  How much will it cost?  Is it value for money?

If you don't have answers to some or all of these questions, then you are as guilty of making simplistic sweeping statements as anybody else.  A train for the sake of a train is pointless, and in my point of view tantamount to stealing.  

Doesn't mean a train line can't work there, but unless there is some evidence that it would be better than just upgrading what are at present (for an inner city area) some pretty pathetic bus services, why should anybody listen?

[#Metro]

I want BrizCommuter's inner city Catapult Network!

These parts of Brisbane are well populated and part of the govt plan to offer "inner city" dynamic lifestyle living - another part of Brisbane suffering from 30yr old thinking, is the New Farm/Newstead region - again part of the govt driven plan to offer "inner city" dynamic lifestyle living.  

I went to New Farm yesterday and I was running late! From about Post Office square onwards I was quietly cursing under my breath as the 199 stopped and stopped, went into the Valley, got stuck in congestion, stopped again, went stopping down Brunswick street.

It takes about one hour to get anywhere in Brisbane from the time you walk out of the door to the time you walk through the door of your destination. Even with the busways, that's still a lot of time. I will admit that I did fantasise about "well, if I were on a subway beneath Brunswick street, there would be no stopping at all this cr*p".

HOWEVER,

There are just TOO many projects at the moment and it is impossible to focus on all of them at once. We can't even fund all of them, or even half the stuff in SEQ 2031.
As much as I would like an underground busway in the Valley and then under Brunswick street, there are competing priorities such as just getting buses or indeed ANY PT to
areas that are PT black spots.

Completing the Core Frequent Network really should be the #1 near term priority. It is the BARE BASIC MINIMUM that connects the City to the Suburbs and the Suburbs to other suburbs on *existing* infrastructure. Anything over and above the CFN is bonus.

You have to ask yourself - do you want to buy a whole heap of concrete for $465 million dollars per kilometre (Hmm, Stones Corner) or do you want a bus to turn up frequently?
I am also against rail being built for the sake of rail being built, and against new rail being constructed for welfare/coverage purposes. Infrastructure is costly and spurs split frequency and cause all sorts of problems in the core from the convergence effect.

Look at Toronto, almost 500 million trips on that per year. Handled by 69 train stations and just FOUR lines. 98% of buses connect to the TTC subway.
Look at Brisbane, 70 million on the buses, around the same on the trains, 85 train stations, 22 busway stations, something like 9 train lines etc...

Less is more, it really is.

[somebody]

I want BrizCommuter's inner city Catapult Network!

MaxHeadway.

[cartoonbirdhaus]

^^ In hindsight, there'd be a number of people fearful of contracting headlice from supplied helmets, à la CityCycle. 

[BrizCommuter]

I want BrizCommuter's inner city Catapult Network!

Unfortunately, bureaucracy surrounding the catch nets is delaying implementation. Still might be in place before the phase 2 timetables though!