Legacy way a legacy around the necks of ratepayers?

[O_128]

the only practical solution is a freeway?  No other solution exists? I find that hard to believe.

That requires out of the box thinking an we all know how hard that is. At least its very likely that the orbital motorway will become a rail line as will the buranda toowong tunnel.

[Gazza]

Ok, so if its just suburban streets in this section, then why can't we ban vehicles over a certain weight, and force them to avoid the area.

You say that this is a 'cross town coridoor', so then why not have cross town buses? Not every bus route has to go into the CBD.

I'm with everyone else, so if we build the tunnel it will just follow the story of every other suburban freeway built in the world....Fine for a few years, then it fills up and becomes congested, and then, the 'ONLY' solution is to build yet another road , and so on and so forth.

[SteelPan]

The M5 is an existing, not new, very congested CROSS CITY ROAD TRANSIT CORRIDOR.  It carries an absolute mountain of commercial, heavy industrial and cross city ROAD traffic.  This type of traffic is not, in any way, public transit focused.

Part of the M5, following generations of state govt neglect, snakes its way from roughly, the Toowong end of the Western Freeway to Everton park via a variety of dangerous and over taxed suburban streets.  

Pretty much everyone knows two things, 1) it's NONE public transit focused (this also holds true for much of the traffic which will use the Legacy Way Tunnel) and 2) it can't go on much longer - the roads are literally breaking apart.  Therefore, the probable solution is to build , commencing hopefully within the next decade, a tunnel between Toowong and Everton Park.  I have previously suggested, that any planning for such a tunnel include the capacity to put heavy rail through either as part of the inital construction or at some future stage.

Do road projects always have to take precedence over PT options - NO, NO and NO.
Similarly, there are times when new/enhanced road transit options are simply a reality.

I believe TransApex is an inevitable and positive long-term asset for the people of Brisbane.  Now, let's get on with advancing the regions rail network!

[O_128]

Part of the M5, following generations of state govt neglect, snakes its way from roughly, the Toowong end of the Western Freeway to Everton park via a variety of dangerous and over taxed suburban streets.  

What is in everton park and why is there so much traffic?

In my opinion Clem 7 and airport link were needed when complete they will provide the missing link from the South east freeway to the gateway motorway.

The Buranda Toowong tunnel is what has me worried,  I just cant see the justification for such a tunnel, Rail with a stop at west end and UQ.

[Jonno]

M5 tunnel nor Buranda Tunnel will never be built. Legacy Way will go into bankruptcy. BCC will write-down a billion dollar asset down to next to nothing. Clem7 will have to be run by BCC or State. Airport Link will also go into bankruptcy. My taxes and rates will be out of control whilst real services decline. And a whole bunch of road lobby groups will be standing around going "Oooops!!" or worse "if we just build the next section it will all fix itself".

Repeating the same thing expecting a different outcome was how Einstien described Insanity.

[ozbob]

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
Albert Einstein

Indeed!   Vrooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooommmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm!! 

I have to laugh when I journey past the Ispwich Carpark on the Ippy rail.  The more they build the worse it becomes ...

[somebody]

M5 tunnel nor Buranda Tunnel will never be built. Legacy Way will go into bankruptcy. BCC will write-down a billion dollar asset down to next to nothing. Clem7 will have to be run by BCC or State. Airport Link will also go into bankruptcy. My taxes and rates will be out of control whilst real services decline. And a whole bunch of road lobby groups will be standing around going "Oooops!!" or worse "if we just build the next section it will all fix itself".

Repeating the same thing expecting a different outcome was how Einstien described Insanity.

Got to agree with most of this, although I do not think that the Legacy Way CAN go bankrupt as it is guaranteed by the council is it not?

[SurfRail]

Got to agree with most of this, although I do not think that the Legacy Way CAN go bankrupt as it is guaranteed by the council is it not?

It can't, but in a very real sense that is much worse for ratepayers who will bear the interest burden while the thing probably will fail to pay off even the principal on BCC's borrowings. 

[Gazza]

What is in everton park and why is there so much traffic?

This this this!

Steelpan, why cant they just ban heavy vehicles from the route?

[#Metro]

Steelpan, why cant they just ban heavy vehicles from the route?

I'm confused. You can't just ban everything away. Trucks need to go somewhere and drive on arterials/sub arterials/freeways.
I would like to know exactly where these trucks are going to go if they are banned from places like Milton Rd and Metroad 5.

And don't say "put it on trains", we can't put a train line spur to every woolies, coles and K-mart in Brisbane.

[colinw]

And don't say "put it on trains", we can't put a train line spur to every woolies, coles and K-mart in Brisbane.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CarGoTram

[#Metro]

You still need a ROW to place it in, and because it is fixed guideway, not so useful.

[Gazza]

I'm confused. You can't just ban everything away. Trucks need to go somewhere and drive on arterials/sub arterials/freeways.

Bypass the area completley basically, make them go via Stafford Rd and Airport link. Similar diversion exist in the South West, where trucks must go via the Logan. The only large trucks that would be entering the area would be for local supermarkets and stores like the Harvey Norman.

[colinw]

You still need a ROW to place it in, and because it is fixed guideway, not so useful.

Lighten up .... it was a joke. (Think about the terrain along the route being discussed).

[#Metro]

Freight BRT?

[SteelPan]

Might I suggest, BOT supporters consider being a bit "strategic" or "political" and adopt a position of saying, "OK, we'll generally "support" a number of major road corridor projects, BUT, we want 1) heavy rail capacity included where it makes sense to do so, OR, 2) where it does not make sense, we want a corresponding major rail corridor project - whenever a major road corridor project is announced.  In other words, we want a truly balanced transport system!"

We can't and won't defeat road transit outright - but, we can grow rail transit options, but using the increasing community appeal of none road alternatives and linking them to major road project support.

[#Metro]

We can't and won't defeat road transit outright - but, we can grow rail transit options, but using the increasing community appeal of none road alternatives and linking them to major road project support.

This does not make sense and is illogical.

It is like saying "for every train track, we must build a parallel freeway so they "balance"".

Find out what the need is and then pick the mode and build it. Some areas might need roads - I am not automatically anti-roads - others PT would make much more sense.

[SurfRail]

The road lobby has enough of a voice.  It is not our job to be fair and balanced to them.

[Gazza]

Im not some 100% hard core anti freeway person, I don't mind the intercity ones, or if they exist mostly to benefit freight etc (And in countries where rail transport is very good, think Japan, Germany, Switzerland, France and many others) they still do have freeways/autobahns/stradas/routes etc.

At the same time, I'm not some 100% hard core rail nut, I am smart enough to see that rail is not panacea for all situations.

But I agree with the above points.

ight I suggest, BOT supporters consider being a bit "strategic" or "political" and adopt a position of saying, "OK, we'll generally "support" a number of major road corridor projects, BUT, we want 1) heavy rail capacity included where it makes sense to do so, OR, 2) where it does not make sense, we want a corresponding major rail corridor project - whenever a major road corridor project is announced.  In other words, we want a truly balanced transport system!

"
Sorry Steelpan, but I shouldn't be forced to sacrifice my principles when I genuinely think that building more Freeways/tunnels wont do anything.

So what happens if we do build the Toowong to Everton Park tunnel and a Freeway along Trouts Rd to the Bruce, as well as the Toowong/Buranda tunnel, and "complete" the freeway network.
It will just happen that some other road in Brisbane will move up the list and be viewed as the 'worst'. And then they'll want to tunnel under that (Oh what, you mean like Kingsford Smith Drive!!!)

Plus the most recent spate of road building highlights the riduculousness of the situation. Both the Clem7 and Gateway deviation are freeways that bypass freeways. Its a never ending cycle.

I also think that your argument that a tunnel is needed for metroad 5 is untrue on the grounds of it being overrun by commercial traffic . You've yet to post a link to any data supporting your claim, or even something as simple as a photo of a queues of traffic where we could see the proportion of private motorists to commercial/trucks.

[#Metro]

I also think that your argument that a tunnel is needed for metroad 5 is untrue on the grounds of it being overrun by commercial traffic . You've yet to post a link to any data supporting your claim, or even something as simple as a photo of a queues of traffic where we could see the proportion of private motorists to commercial/trucks.

I have gone along that road in person. It is VERY bad. You can probably walk or bicycle faster than that traffic.

The Trouts Road Rail (TRR) would allow people to escape this. The road is quite wide and could probably accomodate a T2 or bus lane. I have noticed that Brisbane is very anti-bus lane/anti-T2 lane and our buses are extremely slow compared to Canberra's. Canberra has bus lanes everywhere. On arterial roads the buses approach service characteristics comparable to the SE Busway in both speed (80-90km/hour and frequency ~5 minutes) but with only a fraction of the infrastructure and cost (painted bus lane and signs). The buses on the blue rapid route zoom down Canberra's roads.

We really really need to pull our socks up! Actions speak louder than words, and I have noticed that getting ANY form of traffic priority for PT whether bus lanes or traffic signal priority is like getting blood out of a stone. They just throw crumbs really!

Our bus speeds are just TOO slow. This comes from stop spacing (Canberra is ruthless- 500 m apart, no express and local stop like you have on route 192/CityGlider- all bus stops are just spaced widely for high speed, bus lanes everywhere on major roads etc). Brisbane has its head in the sand!

[#Metro]

So there-- don't spend billions on more damned bags of concrete, get some decent signal priority and paint a bus lane, put some signs up and make some priority along that road. Later on Trouts Road Rail will come along.

It is VERY costly to start tunneling everywhere, demolish houses and so on. There are cheaper, faster options that do the same thing and cost a fraction of the cost.

[SteelPan]

We can't and won't defeat road transit outright - but, we can grow rail transit options, but using the increasing community appeal of none road alternatives and linking them to major road project support.

This does not make sense and is illogical.

It is like saying "for every train track, we must build a parallel freeway so they "balance"".

Find out what the need is and then pick the mode and build it. Some areas might need roads - I am not automatically anti-roads - others PT would make much more sense.

What I am saying is that RAIL must form part of a balanced transit policy.  If roads are given the green light, then rail must be too - for to long rail has been the Cinderella of our transit policies.  Even accepting the sometimes logical development of new/enhanced road corridors, the case for greater rail investment can be made.

[SteelPan]

The road lobby has enough of a voice.  It is not our job to be fair and balanced to them.

I'm saying, tie some of the progress of rail to the very powerful and effective road lobby voice!  We get rail projects up by stand alone lobbying efforts - we win!  We get rail projects up by lobbying "via" the road lobby - we win!

[Jonno]

We can't afford both and that is the line the polies have used for the last 10 years...and look where that has got us?

EDIT: PS I don't remember in Cinderella the ugly step sister getting to ALSO marry the Prince!!!

[ozbob]

The road lobby has enough of a voice.  It is not our job to be fair and balanced to them.

I'm saying, tie some of the progress of rail to the very powerful and effective road lobby voice!  We get rail projects up by stand alone lobbying efforts - we win!  We get rail projects up by lobbying "via" the road lobby - we win!

Some merit there SteelPan IMHO.  The only way I think that a western rail freight bypass will be realised is as a rail/road freight corridor.