Single track

[somebody]

This seems to be an emotive issue for some people.  Let's catalogue the relative bits of single track on the east coast:

SEQ:
north of Beerburrum
Sandgate-Shornliffe (1 station)
Doomben line (4 stations)
Eagle Junction-International Airport
Keperra-Ferny Grove (for a year or so more)
Coomera-Helensvale (1 station)
Manly-Cleveland (6 stations) - twin platforms @ Lota, Thorneside, Wellington Point, and Cleveland


Sydney:
Quakers Hill-Richmond (8 stations) - twin platforms @ Riverstone, Mulgrave, Clarendon and Richmond
Carlingford line (6 stations IIRC)
South of Unanderra (11 stations to terminus)

Vic:
Epping line 3 stations, only one with a single platform
Heidelburg-Rosanna (1 station)
Greensborough-Hurstbridge (5 stations) - twin platforms at Eltham & Diamond Creek
Cranbourne line, 2 stations
Alamein line, 1 station
Belgrave line, 4 stations - twin platforms at 3.
Mooroolbark-Lilydale, 1 station - all twin platforms
Gowrie-Upfield, 1 station
Williamstown station, single platform terminus
Altona loop (3 stations) - twin platform at Westona

So, SEQ has more single track than Sydney (Cronulla branch was recently fully duplicated), and probably proportionately similar to Vic.

The question has to be asked: How come Melbourne are able to run a 15 minute frequency service on the Alamein line, for example, in spite of the inferior infrstructure to SEQ (last two stations only have a single platform, and a 3 minute run time between them), and I am thinking of the Shorncliffe line in particular.  Lilydale also has a 15 minute peak service.

[SurfRail]

So, SEQ has more single track than Sydney (Cronulla branch was recently fully duplicated), and probably proportionately similar to Vic.

The question has to be asked: How come Melbourne are able to run a 15 minute frequency service on the Alamein line, for example, in spite of the inferior infrstructure to SEQ (last two stations only have a single platform, and a 3 minute run time between them), and I am thinking of the Shorncliffe line in particular.  Lilydale also has a 15 minute peak service.

Because they want to. 

[somebody]

So, SEQ has more single track than Sydney (Cronulla branch was recently fully duplicated), and probably proportionately similar to Vic.

The question has to be asked: How come Melbourne are able to run a 15 minute frequency service on the Alamein line, for example, in spite of the inferior infrstructure to SEQ (last two stations only have a single platform, and a 3 minute run time between them), and I am thinking of the Shorncliffe line in particular.  Lilydale also has a 15 minute peak service.

Because they want to. 

There is still a lot of talk, even on this forum, that the Shorncliffe line couldn't have a 15 minute frequency service.  Hopefully, this talk can end soon!

[Fares_Fair]

This seems to be an emotive issue for some people.  Let's catalogue the relative bits of single track on the east coast:

SEQ:
north of Beerburrum and all the way up to Cairns is predominately single track, with short passing loops
Sandgate-Shornliffe (1 station)
Doomben line (4 stations)
Eagle Junction-International Airport
Keperra-Ferny Grove (for a year or so more)
Coomera-Helensvale (1 station)
Manly-Cleveland (6 stations) - twin platforms @ Lota, Thorneside, Wellington Point, and Cleveland


Sydney:
Quakers Hill-Richmond (8 stations) - twin platforms @ Riverstone, Mulgrave, Clarendon and Richmond
Carlingford line (6 stations IIRC)
South of Unanderra (11 stations to terminus)

Vic:
Epping line 3 stations, only one with a single platform
Heidelburg-Rosanna (1 station)
Greensborough-Hurstbridge (5 stations) - twin platforms at Eltham & Diamond Creek
Cranbourne line, 2 stations
Alamein line, 1 station
Belgrave line, 4 stations - twin platforms at 3.
Mooroolbark-Lilydale, 1 station - all twin platforms
Gowrie-Upfield, 1 station
Williamstown station, single platform terminus
Altona loop (3 stations) - twin platform at Westona

So, SEQ has more single track than Sydney (Cronulla branch was recently fully duplicated), and probably proportionately similar to Vic.

The question has to be asked: How come Melbourne are able to run a 15 minute frequency service on the Alamein line, for example, in spite of the inferior infrstructure to SEQ (last two stations only have a single platform, and a 3 minute run time between them), and I am thinking of the Shorncliffe line in particular.  Lilydale also has a 15 minute peak service.

Bold red added by Fares_Fair.
Not sure that emotive is the right word in this case.  
In my opinion it is a solid and valid argument that would improve the lot of the Sunshine Coast commuter.

Regards,
Fares_Fair.

[somebody]

I think there is double track somewhere in the middle due to coal traffic.  I do not know what argument you are referring to.  It is not an argument that there is a lot of single track and it should be duplicated.  That falls into the category of an unsupported assertion.

[Fares_Fair]

 

[HappyTrainGuy]

And when you compare the network length to others you start to see the problem with duplicating the whole network.

[Fares_Fair]

I do not know what argument you are referring to.  It is not an argument that there is a lot of single track and it should be duplicated.  That falls into the category of an unsupported assertion.

That really is an interesting and unsupported statement.
Please read this attached report:

http://www.infrastructure.gov.au/transport/publications/files/Bris_Cairns_Corridor_Strategy.pdf


From Chapter 2 on p3.

Rail
The North Coast Railway Line (NCL) is predominantly
a single line, narrow gauge track between
Brisbane and Cairns. The NCL is approximately
1,669 kilometres and largely runs parallel to the
Bruce Highway for its entire length. The Brisbane
metropolitan section ends at Nambour about 100
kilometres north of Brisbane.
The NCL bypasses some larger towns including
Gympie, Maryborough and Bowen as well as many
very small towns.

Regards,
Fares_Fair.

[somebody]

Ok, that becomes an argument then.

Continuing on my comparisons to Vic and extending to V/Line:
Fully duplicated to Geelong 74.56km, single track beyond to Warnambool
Fully duplicated to Seymour 101.69km
Single track beyond Deer Park West, 22-23km from Southern Cross towards Ballarat
Single track beyond Kyneton 93.55km towards Bendigo/Swan Hill/Echuca
Single track beyond Drouin 90.99km towards Traralgon/Sale/Bairnsdale

Compared to the Nambour line:
Single track beyond Beerburrum 64.6km.

Only the Ballarat line has a shorter section of double track.  Most of these lines don't have that much freight either on the BG.

And when you compare the network length to others you start to see the problem with duplicating the whole network.

Not sure what you are saying here?  We can't duplicate all of QLD because the network is far too long?  Of course.

[Fares_Fair]

What are we arguing over ?

I have not called for the duplication of the entire NCL.
However it is the Federal governments (long term) plan to do so from the story in The Australian newspaper, titled "Freight haulers to get own network"

I am however arguing for the duplication of the line (to Nambour/ Gympie North) based upon many government reports that back my case.
Are any of the areas you mention the third highest growth regions in the entire state ?

Regards,
Fares_Fair.

[somebody]

What are we arguing over ?

I have not called for the duplication of the entire NCL.
However it is the Federal governments (long term) plan to do so from the story in The Australian newspaper, titled "Freight haulers to get own network"

I am however arguing for the duplication of the line (to Nambour/ Gympie North) based upon many government reports that back my case.

Regards,
Fares_Fair.

I think what you meant in your first post in this thread was:
"In my opinion there is a solid and valid argument that would improve the lot of the Sunshine Coast commuter."

[HappyTrainGuy]

Not sure what you are saying here?  We can't duplicate all of QLD because the network is far too long?  Of course.

I'm pointing out that one operator (QR) is responsible for the majority of the rail and infrastructure in Queensland where as other states have governments and other operators paying/maintaining the rail that aren't as extensive as ours are.

[somebody]

Not sure what you are saying here?  We can't duplicate all of QLD because the network is far too long?  Of course.

I'm pointing out that one operator (QR) is responsible for the majority of the rail and infrastructure in Queensland where as other states have governments and other operators paying/maintaining the rail that aren't as extensive as ours are.

ARTC has done some good stuff, but one thing they certainly haven't done is wholesale duplications.  Outside of coal territory, only Seymour-Wodonga has been duplicated, and that by gauge conversion.  Indeed, for the Mel-Syd route the duplicated track is the most problematic.

[SurfRail]

There is still a lot of talk, even on this forum, that the Shorncliffe line couldn't have a 15 minute frequency service.  Hopefully, this talk can end soon!

Agreed.  I really struggle to see how it can take so long to reverse a virtually empty train at a relatively unimportant station like Shorncliffe and send it back to platform 2 at Sandgate.

Constructing the second track could be done in a few months (or less) with minimal funding, surely.  All you would need to do is isolate the overhead after Sandgate, shut down the corridor, work on it 7 days a week and put on replacement buses into Sandgate until finished.

The only added expense would be a new platform at Shorncliffe.  You could probably get away with a Cronulla style setup with a lengthened single platform and a runaround.

Then again, I honestly wouldn't be averse to closing Shorncliffe to regular services if it would make it cheaper than doing it properly.  A decent feeder bus (not the horrible 311-314 series routes) would probably provide more than enough capacity to feed into the important station at Sandgate. 

In any event, leave the track there anyway for stabling (and the station and triangle for the all-important Steam Train Sunday and ARHS tours...)

[somebody]

I'd like the line to Shornciffe to stay.  It would be a pain in the bum to have to have a feeder bus for both the operator and pax.

Regarding the duplication, you are probably correct.  I still wonder if duplication of the track between the stations retaining the single platform at Shorncliffe would be adequate.  I can't imagine Shorncliffe ever requiring more than 8tph peak, and that should be achievable with a crew swap a.k.a. stepping back on a single platform.

[mufreight]

Give the length of the NCL alone and the volumes of traffic on that line it is neither viable nor necessicary to duplicate the line beyond Nambour at this time, there is however a need for more train paths between Beerburum and Nambour and duplicated passing lanes at selected locations between Nambour and Rockhampton.
To provide some immediate relief to provide sufficent train paths as far as Nambour to enable not only all passenger services to be operated by rail but provide additional paths for freight services while awaiting the duplication and realignment of the line to Nambour the following works would allow the operation of passenger srvices by rail on a 30 minute frequency and also provide additional paths for the operation of freight services.
The continuation of the duolication to Glasshouse on the new alignment would the remove the slowest section and leave a 10 minute running time from Glasshouse to Landsborough.
this would then leave an 6 minute section from Landsborough to Eudlo, the duplication on the new alignment between Mooloolah and Eudlo which would enable trains to pass without any waiting for an opposing movement to clear leaving the remaining section Eudlo to Nambour with a running time of 15 minutes.
The obvious next section for duplication and realignment would be Eudlo to Palmwoods which would reduce the running time over the single track section which would then be Palmwoods to Nambour to nine minutes.
These sections of duplication would each contribute not only to providing more train parths but also reduced running times as the realignment of these sections would remove many curves with track speeds as low as 50kph.
This accelerated transit time would be of considerable benefit to freight services and the elimination of the need for freight services to go into the present short crossing loops to cross other movements would enable the operation of longer trains.
The lengthing of selected crossing loops between Nambour and Rockhampton to cater for trains of 1500m would reduce the numbers of train paths required to move the increasing freight tonnages.
Again at selected locations between Nambour and Gympie North the line could over time be duplicated to provide passing lanes which would enable longer freight trains to cross opposing movements without the present delays as a consequence of having to stop and wait in a passing loop for an opposing movement to clear.
Argument for the immediate resumption of work on the duplication of Beerburrum to Glasshouse and Mooloolah to Palmwoods.
To resume and carry out these works now will save money beyond the cost of the interest on the money borrowed to carry out these works.

[somebody]

Very supportive of what you are proposing, mufreight.

Quick nit pick: I think you meant a 6 minute section Landsborough to Mooloolah rather than Landsborough to Eudlo.

The other thing is on the 6 June 2011 timetable Glass House Mountains to Mooloolah is a 16 minute section.  That means the half hourly service can only extend to Landsborough, with every other train continuing to Nambour or beyond. Unless you retain a cross in the single track section.

EDIT: clarity

[Fares_Fair]

Give the length of the NCL alone and the volumes of traffic on that line it is neither viable nor necessicary to duplicate the line beyond Nambour at this time, there is however a need for more train paths between Beerburum and Nambour and duplicated passing lanes at selected locations between Nambour and Rockhampton.
To provide some immediate relief to provide sufficent train paths as far as Nambour to enable not only all passenger services to be operated by rail but provide additional paths for freight services while awaiting the duplication and realignment of the line to Nambour the following works would allow the operation of passenger srvices by rail on a 30 minute frequency and also provide additional paths for the operation of freight services.
The continuation of the duolication to Glasshouse on the new alignment would the remove the slowest section and leave a 10 minute running time from Glasshouse to Landsborough.
this would then leave an 6 minute section from Landsborough to Eudlo Mooloolah ?, the duplication on the new alignment between Mooloolah and Eudlo which would enable trains to pass without any waiting for an opposing movement to clear leaving the remaining section Eudlo to Nambour with a running time of 15 minutes.
The obvious next section for duplication and realignment would be Eudlo to Palmwoods which would reduce the running time over the single track section which would then be Palmwoods to Nambour to nine minutes.
These sections of duplication would each contribute not only to providing more train parths but also reduced running times as the realignment of these sections would remove many curves with track speeds as low as 50kph.
This accelerated transit time would be of considerable benefit to freight services and the elimination of the need for freight services to go into the present short crossing loops to cross other movements would enable the operation of longer trains.
The lengthining of selected crossing loops between Nambour and Rockhampton to cater for trains of 1500m would reduce the numbers of train paths required to move the increasing freight tonnages.
Again at selected locations between Nambour and Gympie North the line could over time be duplicated to provide passing lanes which would enable longer freight trains to cross opposing movements without the present delays as a consequence of having to stop and wait in a passing loop for an opposing movement to clear.
Argument for the immediate resumption of work on the duplication of Beerburrum to Glasshouse and Mooloolah to Palmwoods.
To resume and carry out these works now will save money beyond the cost of the interest on the money borrowed to carry out these works.

Thanks mufreight, noted. 
Is my revision in red correct please ?

Regards,
Fares_Fair.

[bernied]

melbourne's frequency doesn't work.  services are often cancelled and only 1/2 the trains service the city loop.  Can  you imagine catching a train from Morningside and having it terminate,  before it got to central?  this is what happens to alot of melbourne's services,  you have to go into Richmond station from the East or South,  and change trains to an already crowded service for a city loop serivce.  It doesn't work. 

Some passengers on the western side of town take 3 services.  The new timetable down here is a step backwards for accountability and punctuality,  nothing else.

[somebody]

melbourne's frequency doesn't work.  services are often cancelled and only 1/2 the trains service the city loop.  Can  you imagine catching a train from Morningside and having it terminate,  before it got to central?  this is what happens to alot of melbourne's services,  you have to go into Richmond station from the East or South,  and change trains to an already crowded service for a city loop serivce.  It doesn't work. 

Some passengers on the western side of town take 3 services.  The new timetable down here is a step backwards for accountability and punctuality,  nothing else.

But how is any of this relevant to this thread?

[SurfRail]

Some passengers on the western side of town take 3 services.  The new timetable down here is a step backwards for accountability and punctuality,  nothing else.

No offence, but I'm sure most commuters in Brisbane would love to have your problem!

[HappyTrainGuy]

Some passengers on the western side of town take 3 services.  The new timetable down here is a step backwards for accountability and punctuality,  nothing else.

No offence, but I'm sure most commuters in Brisbane would love to have your problem!

I'd rather drive or play human tetris on a cramped uncomftable bus for over an hour than change trains 3 times just to get to the city 

[somebody]

No offence, but I'm sure most commuters in Brisbane would love to have your problem!

I'd rather drive or play human tetris on a cramped uncomftable bus for over an hour than change trains 3 times just to get to the city 

No one has to change trains 3 times to get to the city.  Everyone can reach Flinders St & Southern Cross with a single change.  However, some might have to change twice to reach City Loop stations.

Melbourne's problems have been caused by success, not failure.  Patronage has grown out of this world, almost like a BUZ service.

[skippy]

Give the length of the NCL alone and the volumes of traffic on that line it is neither viable nor necessicary to duplicate the line beyond Nambour at this time, there is however a need for more train paths between Beerburum and Nambour and duplicated passing lanes at selected locations between Nambour and Rockhampton.

Are you suggesting the 100 odd kilometres of duplicated track south of Rockhampton is inadequate?

[mufreight]

Give the length of the NCL alone and the volumes of traffic on that line it is neither viable nor necessicary to duplicate the line beyond Nambour at this time, there is however a need for more train paths between Beerburum and Nambour and duplicated passing lanes at selected locations between Nambour and Rockhampton.

Are you suggesting the 100 odd kilometres of duplicated track south of Rockhampton is inadequate?

At the present time north of Beerburrum to Rockhampton the line is inadequate for the traffic it could be carrying.
With the desired frequency for passenger services to Nambour the Beerburrum to Nambour section is a pathetic joke and infrastructure upgrades (duplication and realignment) are needed now.
North of Nambour the most pressing immediate need is the lengthining of selected crossing loops to enable the operation of longer freight services with some realignment and the construction of passing lanes in selected locations providing sections of double track that will with appropriate timetabling enable opposing services to cross without the need to come to a stand in a crossing loop and wait the opposing movement to clear.
 

[skippy]

Agree longer loops and realignment between Beerburrum and Gladstone is needed. My point was the 100 odd kilometre section between Gladstone and Rockhampton is already 100% double track.

[Stillwater]

This issue is addressed in the AusLink Brisbane-Cairns corridor strategy, which has been endorsed by the federal and state governments.

The efficiency and safety of passenger and freight movements on the section between Brisbane and Gympie is one of seven major strategic issues both governments have pledged to rectify.

AusLink says that, despite major below-rail investment during the past decade, the NCL continues to suffer from low operating speeds along its length, due to poor track alignment and to other factors.

While deviations have been constructed as part of the NCL upgrades, horizontal alignments and vertical grades between Nambour and Bundaberg remain poor and are a major impediment to attaining any further improvement in transit times and train length.

The NCL is limited to catering for average train lengths of 650 metres. This is largely due to limited crossing loop length. There are about 130 crossing loops on the NCL with lengths varying between
455 metres and 1,400 metres but predominantly about 700 metres. These lengths, which are a historical legacy, limit the length of trains to about 650 metres. This compares with the operation of 1,300-1,500 metre trains on some other parts of the AusLink Network. This constraint on train length could impact on the potential growth in rail freight transport.

[mufreight]

Agree longer loops and realignment between Beerburrum and Gladstone is needed. My point was the 100 odd kilometre section between Gladstone and Rockhampton is already 100% double track.

Point taken but unfortunately the choke point is Beerburrum to Nambour and to a lesser extent Nambour to Gladstone, that there is double track between Gladstone and Rockhampton does not alter the argument in respect of deficent infrastructure on the NCL north of Beerburrum.
While the double track between Gladstone and Rockhampton this section is heavily trafficed by coal services and signaling upgrades are needed to enable the optimum utilisation of that section to allow for the operation of the higher speed intermodal and passenger services without hinderence

[mufreight]

Give the length of the NCL alone and the volumes of traffic on that line it is neither viable nor necessicary to duplicate the line beyond Nambour at this time, there is however a need for more train paths between Beerburum and Nambour and duplicated passing lanes at selected locations between Nambour and Rockhampton.
To provide some immediate relief to provide sufficent train paths as far as Nambour to enable not only all passenger services to be operated by rail but provide additional paths for freight services while awaiting the duplication and realignment of the line to Nambour the following works would allow the operation of passenger srvices by rail on a 30 minute frequency and also provide additional paths for the operation of freight services.
The continuation of the duolication to Glasshouse on the new alignment would the remove the slowest section and leave a 10 minute running time from Glasshouse to Landsborough.
this would then leave an 6 minute section from Landsborough to Eudlo Mooloolah ?, the duplication on the new alignment between Mooloolah and Eudlo which would enable trains to pass without any waiting for an opposing movement to clear leaving the remaining section Eudlo to Nambour with a running time of 15 minutes.
The obvious next section for duplication and realignment would be Eudlo to Palmwoods which would reduce the running time over the single track section which would then be Palmwoods to Nambour to nine minutes.
These sections of duplication would each contribute not only to providing more train parths but also reduced running times as the realignment of these sections would remove many curves with track speeds as low as 50kph.
This accelerated transit time would be of considerable benefit to freight services and the elimination of the need for freight services to go into the present short crossing loops to cross other movements would enable the operation of longer trains.
The lengthining of selected crossing loops between Nambour and Rockhampton to cater for trains of 1500m would reduce the numbers of train paths required to move the increasing freight tonnages.
Again at selected locations between Nambour and Gympie North the line could over time be duplicated to provide passing lanes which would enable longer freight trains to cross opposing movements without the present delays as a consequence of having to stop and wait in a passing loop for an opposing movement to clear.
Argument for the immediate resumption of work on the duplication of Beerburrum to Glasshouse and Mooloolah to Palmwoods.
To resume and carry out these works now will save money beyond the cost of the interest on the money borrowed to carry out these works.

Thanks mufreight, noted.  
Is my revision in red correct please ?

Regards,
Fares_Fair.

Yes your correction is right but I mixed things up a little (old age) it should have read a 13 minute section Landsborough to Eudlo, to clarify things a little the loop at Landsborough which has a platform for passenger services would be extended to cater for a 1500m train length and this would allow the passing moves.

[Stillwater]

   That is the sort of project that needs to be included in the 'small rail projects program'.  It is pennies and dimes stuff that can make a real difference.