Article : Sleeping on rail concern

[Fares_Fair]

The point was that people that live further out get VERY good.
Plus, if there was a more balanced system that the people further out paid more, they would recover more revenue and thus provide more services (or one would hope  )

with respect Zoiks,

very good what for example?

[I know you mean ticket prices comparative to 2 zone travel, but as Arnz points out above, we all pay that for 2 zones travel.]

service.. No
frequency.. No
dual tracks.. No
appropriate times of travel.. No

But on the other hand;

overcrowded services.. yes
44% rail buses in lieu of trains.. yes
unhappy commuters with timetable.. yes
longer journeys.. yes

Regards,
Fares_Fair.

[Arnz]

The point was that people that live further out get VERY good.

One can argue, the further out, the less services they get.  

A "reasonable" (at best) bus system in most regions where local commuters travelling 1-2 zones on trunk routes pay the same as inner city commuters, surrounded by poor rail frequency into the bigger centres (every 90mins-2hrs) isn't exactly value for money.

Plus, if there was a more balanced system that the people further out paid more, they would recover more revenue and thus provide more services (or one would hope  )

Why not just call for the removal of TL beyond BCC boundaries and replace it with QConnect (rest of the state subsidises their own whilst the BCC subsidises their own) and get it done and over with.

[ozbob]

There is a flag fall component and then a distance component.  Short trips obviously are dearer relatively.  Like most things, the more you use, the cheaper it gets ...   

[HappyTrainGuy]

Looking at the zonal map from this post
http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=5926.msg55274#new
it is interesting to see the jump between some zone numbers and the 'joint' zones.

I'm trying to find a logic to them ...  :conf

Regards,
Fares_Fair.

Are you referring to the bits around Nambout/Gold Coast?

[Fares_Fair]

yes, the zonal number jumps.

Regards,
Fares_Fair.

[somebody]

I think a lot of that is because of the large distance between the stations.  You see the same thing on the Gold Coast.

[Zoiks]

Sorry, I meant a very good price in distance travelled.
I am all for increasing services and service quality. You will not see me saying otherwise and I will fight for it. What I will not fight for is for people who live close to their work paying 93% for the distance they travel compared to those who live at the sunshine coast and want to commute to brisbane.

[HappyTrainGuy]

yes, the zonal number jumps.

Regards,
Fares_Fair.

The Gold Coast and Sunshine Coast bus zones. Thats the problem with having trains and busses sticking to the same zone structure from the border to Gympie North. Populated, heavy bus area then very little then bus area again and so on.

[SurfRail]

yes, the zonal number jumps.

Regards,
Fares_Fair.

The Gold Coast and Sunshine Coast bus zones. Thats the problem with having trains and busses sticking to the same zone structure from the border to Gympie North. Populated, heavy bus area then very little then bus area again and so on.

Que?

Very simple I would have thought.  They just radiate out from the city at fairly regular intervals - which gives a massive advantage for people travelling from the northside to the southside of the city, but I don't begrudge them that.

[HappyTrainGuy]

But then you disadvantaging people that travel short distances by bus only on the coast.

[somebody]

But then you disadvantaging people that travel short distances by bus only on the coast.

How do you figure?  I am assuming that "The City" means Brisbane, not Surfers.

The problem is that people making east-west trips on the Gold & Sunshine Coasts are getting a too cheap deal.  There's a lot of issues with zone systems.

[SurfRail]

The problem is that people making east-west trips on the Gold & Sunshine Coasts are getting a too cheap deal.  There's a lot of issues with zone systems.

Hence why I'm not too concerned about an epicentre being based on Brisbane, giving a Chermside to Garden City trip which is only 3 zones instead of being geographically 5 zones.  There are dodges everywhere, and it evens out.

[justanotheruser]

Slight correction, Valley-Roma St should be 1 zone ($2.65 peak).  Unless I'm very much mistaken.

Nope your not mistaken.

Looking at the zonal map from this post
http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=5926.msg55274#new
it is interesting to see the jump between some zone numbers and the 'joint' zones.

I'm trying to find a logic to them ...  :conf

Regards,
Fares_Fair.

thats funny...logic in their planning!

[justanotheruser]

The point was that people that live further out get VERY good.
Plus, if there was a more balanced system that the people further out paid more, they would recover more revenue and thus provide more services (or one would hope  )

Yes you are right when you refer to fares only but as previously pointed out by several people is the much better service and improved frequency. If there was the same frequency then the complaint would be justified but with 2 services to the city from ipswich in off-peak compared to 32 services from toowong to city that should be taken into consideration.

As Bob said though also remember there is a flagfall part of the fare as well and that is reasonable. At the end of the day it is still cheaper to catch PT from toowong to city rather than drive when you take the cost of parking into consideration. Heck even at milton parking per day costs more than a one way travel on the go-card from ipswich.

[somebody]

As Bob said though also remember there is a flagfall part of the fare as well and that is reasonable.

Having a flagfall is reasonable or the amount of the flagfall is reasonable?  I strongly disagree with the latter.  You shouldn't have to consider parking for it to be cheaper to use PT.  A number of people have access to free parking through their employers for example.  Not giving these people a decision is a problem.

[Gazza]

There is a flag fall component and then a distance component.  Short trips obviously are dearer relatively.  Like most things, the more you use, the cheaper it gets ...   

This is the problem, in the inner city vehicles are more heavily loaded, dead run less, and stations are more used  (compare the new Indro station to the station at Varsity.... Same capital  and staffing cost but at Indro the cost is split between more pax)

Hence I disagree that short trip travellers should be lumped with a high flagfall.

[justanotheruser]

As Bob said though also remember there is a flagfall part of the fare as well and that is reasonable.

Having a flagfall is reasonable or the amount of the flagfall is reasonable?  I strongly disagree with the latter.  You shouldn't have to consider parking for it to be cheaper to use PT.  A number of people have access to free parking through their employers for example.  Not giving these people a decision is a problem.

Follow the NSW example (yes I know thats an evil phrase in QLD!) and put a tax on city car parking spaces. You'll find the the free parking employers provide will dry up pretty fast as they get their employees to pay the tax unless they use their car for work. In reality I would say the number of people with free parking is less than the number of people who pay for parking so it is not that unreasonable to take cost of parking into consideration.

[somebody]

Follow the NSW example (yes I know thats an evil phrase in QLD!) and put a tax on city car parking spaces.

That tax is woefully inadequate.  $2000p.a. plus GST.  Hardly even noticed when city parking costs more like $40/day.  Maybe you can lease a space somewhere for $50-$100/week, but you have to have a standing arrangement for that to work out, and pay whether you use it or not.

However I notice that you didn't respond to my question as to whether you are saying the amount of the flagfall is reasonable.

[justanotheruser]

Follow the NSW example (yes I know thats an evil phrase in QLD!) and put a tax on city car parking spaces.

That tax is woefully inadequate.  $2000p.a. plus GST.  Hardly even noticed when city parking costs more like $40/day.  Maybe you can lease a space somewhere for $50-$100/week, but you have to have a standing arrangement for that to work out, and pay whether you use it or not.

However I notice that you didn't respond to my question as to whether you are saying the amount of the flagfall is reasonable.

Sorry didn't realise it was a question you wanted answered seem as you answered it yourself.  Without knowing the exact amount of flagfall I can't answer. So how about you suggest what you think is a reasonable flagfall and why and I'll comment on that?

$2,000 per year may not sound like much still works out at around $7.70 per day (plus GST) assuming five days a week. So add that to the cost of petrol and wear & tear on the car and PT is clearly the winner. Note I did not include rego or insurance as I assume they will be paying those to have the car anyway.

[somebody]

However I notice that you didn't respond to my question as to whether you are saying the amount of the flagfall is reasonable.

Sorry didn't realise it was a question you wanted answered seem as you answered it yourself.  Without knowing the exact amount of flagfall I can't answer. So how about you suggest what you think is a reasonable flagfall and why and I'll comment on that?

$2,000 per year may not sound like much still works out at around $7.70 per day (plus GST) assuming five days a week. So add that to the cost of petrol and wear & tear on the car and PT is clearly the winner. Note I did not include rego or insurance as I assume they will be paying those to have the car anyway.

I guess so, $7.70 per day adds a fair amount to the cost.

Regarding the flagfall, I'd be thinking more like 50c.  Current flagfall is just over $2.

[justanotheruser]

However I notice that you didn't respond to my question as to whether you are saying the amount of the flagfall is reasonable.

Sorry didn't realise it was a question you wanted answered seem as you answered it yourself.  Without knowing the exact amount of flagfall I can't answer. So how about you suggest what you think is a reasonable flagfall and why and I'll comment on that?

$2,000 per year may not sound like much still works out at around $7.70 per day (plus GST) assuming five days a week. So add that to the cost of petrol and wear & tear on the car and PT is clearly the winner. Note I did not include rego or insurance as I assume they will be paying those to have the car anyway.

I guess so, $7.70 per day adds a fair amount to the cost.

Regarding the flagfall, I'd be thinking more like 50c.  Current flagfall is just over $2.

50 cents seems a little low but I don't know basic operating expenses for running a train or bus or citycat. I would imagine however they have four staff on a city cat (captain, engineer, deckhand and ticket seller) which makes it rather expensive. maybe we can compromise at $1.20!

[Gazza]

Cant they just replace the ticket seller with a machine?

[#Metro]

Insert Quote
Cant they just replace the ticket seller with a machine?

You know, they probably could if they made the ferry stops "closed" just like a train station. I don't think it would speed up boarding though. CityCat is expensive to run as there are so many staff on the boat.

[somebody]

50 cents seems a little low but I don't know basic operating expenses for running a train or bus or citycat. I would imagine however they have four staff on a city cat (captain, engineer, deckhand and ticket seller) which makes it rather expensive. maybe we can compromise at $1.20!

Distracting with the CityCat is largely a red herring, it carries around 5% of boardings in SEQ.  Although there is a case for a higher charge on that service.

At least you are willing to concede that a lower flag fall may be appropriate.

[SurfRail]

Insert Quote
Cant they just replace the ticket seller with a machine?

You know, they probably could if they made the ferry stops "closed" just like a train station. I don't think it would speed up boarding though. CityCat is expensive to run as there are so many staff on the boat.

I recall a ministerial announcement shortly pre-floods that all CityCats and monohulls would be fitted with an AVVM.  Probably disappeared into the "flood repairs" basket.

CityCats in my mind should have cabin crew, because they fulfil an important "ambassadorial" function (for lack of a better word) and there are only 17 of them running at present, so it's hardly taxing the system's resources.  However I have no issue in getting that down to the master and a single onboard assistant if possible.  A deckhand doesn't appear to do anything substantial when the vessel is not docking, and a ticket-seller does not sell tickets when the vessel is docking.

[Gazza]

And to be fair, despite the higher staffing, they also have higher capacity than even the largest buses, so it evens out a bit in terms of staff per seat.

[somebody]

And to be fair, despite the higher staffing, they also have higher capacity than even the largest buses, so it evens out a bit in terms of staff per seat.

Capacity only helps if it is used though.

[#Metro]

I think the CityCat is great, though isn't it the most expensive PT to run, and this would presumably be because of the high levels of staff required on it?

"closed ticket" CityCat stations would be interesting.

My gripe with the CityCat is the dwells at stops-- particularly the ones where the ferry has to wait for another ferry to get off the dock. And it seems to be a bit slow, and will get even slower when more stops are added.

[somebody]

I think the CityCat is great, though isn't it the most expensive PT to run, and this would presumably be because of the high levels of staff required on it?

"closed ticket" CityCat stations would be interesting.

My gripe with the CityCat is the dwells at stops-- particularly the ones where the ferry has to wait for another ferry to get off the dock. And it seems to be a bit slow, and will get even slower when more stops are added.

I don't see the need for the North Quay-Guyatt Park connection.  There could be two isolated City Cat routes.

[justanotheruser]

50 cents seems a little low but I don't know basic operating expenses for running a train or bus or citycat. I would imagine however they have four staff on a city cat (captain, engineer, deckhand and ticket seller) which makes it rather expensive. maybe we can compromise at $1.20!

Distracting with the CityCat is largely a red herring, it carries around 5% of boardings in SEQ.  Although there is a case for a higher charge on that service.

At least you are willing to concede that a lower flag fall may be appropriate.

It's not a red herring as it is available only to zone 1&2 passengers which is the exact zone your wanting cheaper trips for. If it is expensive then it needs to be paid for. The flagfall should cover the operating costs and then have a distance charge to make up the total fare. So regardless of the number of passengers the operating expense is still there.

Cant they just replace the ticket seller with a machine?

as long as people realise that machines are actually more expensive than people!  Based on the experience in NSW on the railways. They can have one person selling tickets or they can have a ticket machine which requires 1 x technician to service, 3 x armed guards to change money boxes and 1 x person to put replacement ticket stock in. So a total of 5 people instead of 1.

Insert Quote
Cant they just replace the ticket seller with a machine?

You know, they probably could if they made the ferry stops "closed" just like a train station. I don't think it would speed up boarding though. CityCat is expensive to run as there are so many staff on the boat.

I recall a ministerial announcement shortly pre-floods that all CityCats and monohulls would be fitted with an AVVM.  Probably disappeared into the "flood repairs" basket.

CityCats in my mind should have cabin crew, because they fulfil an important "ambassadorial" function (for lack of a better word) and there are only 17 of them running at present, so it's hardly taxing the system's resources.  However I have no issue in getting that down to the master and a single onboard assistant if possible.  A deckhand doesn't appear to do anything substantial when the vessel is not docking, and a ticket-seller does not sell tickets when the vessel is docking.

perhaps the ticket seller is doing nothing when docking but then they are selling tickets while the deckhand is removing the ramp and casting off. Having seen people just go through and line up for ticket seller then sit down rather than stand in line then you will get less people waiting I reckon. Perhaps if the ticket seller and engineer were trained to do deckhand role then engineer could do deckhand job as well and in an emergency if engineer is busy then ticket seller can step in.

[#Metro]

as long as people realise that machines are actually more expensive than people!  Based on the experience in NSW on the railways. They can have one person selling tickets or they can have a ticket machine which requires 1 x technician to service, 3 x armed guards to change money boxes and 1 x person to put replacement ticket stock in. So a total of 5 people instead of 1.

I don't know about this as obviously you could get those people to do multiple stops and might need to do something like that I don't know once a day or a week. Maybe this is something that can come up at the meetings- ticket machines at ferry stops, closed ferry platforms.

[somebody]

I think the ticket seller is largely an anachronism.

[justanotheruser]

as long as people realise that machines are actually more expensive than people!  Based on the experience in NSW on the railways. They can have one person selling tickets or they can have a ticket machine which requires 1 x technician to service, 3 x armed guards to change money boxes and 1 x person to put replacement ticket stock in. So a total of 5 people instead of 1.

I don't know about this as obviously you could get those people to do multiple stops and might need to do something like that I don't know once a day or a week. Maybe this is something that can come up at the meetings- ticket machines at ferry stops, closed ferry platforms.

probably not relevant as I doubt money will be spent making ferry wharves closed. Thinking of places like west end or regatta. Not practical unless of course you provide the ones like at suburban train stations. Not sure what percentage of trips are not at eagle st but north quay, west end & regatta most certainly would not besuitable to be closed. Of course then you need staff to man those gates so you save basically nothing by not having a ticket seller.

[Golliwog]

Just going to put it out there but I think that deckhand does do double jobs sometimes. When I was mucking around on the 'cats on ANZAC day, the first service was only staffed by the driver and a deckhand who sold tickets inbetween stops. With the go card become so well used and Citycat patronage dropping off theres less and less need for an extra staff member to have the sole task of selling tickets.

[justanotheruser]

Just going to put it out there but I think that deckhand does do double jobs sometimes. When I was mucking around on the 'cats on ANZAC day, the first service was only staffed by the driver and a deckhand who sold tickets inbetween stops. With the go card become so well used and Citycat patronage dropping off theres less and less need for an extra staff member to have the sole task of selling tickets.

good point and I must admit I have not caught a cat since late 2009

[Golliwog]

Just going to put it out there but I think that deckhand does do double jobs sometimes. When I was mucking around on the 'cats on ANZAC day, the first service was only staffed by the driver and a deckhand who sold tickets inbetween stops. With the go card become so well used and Citycat patronage dropping off theres less and less need for an extra staff member to have the sole task of selling tickets.

good point and I must admit I have not caught a cat since late 2009

I was talking to the deckhand and he was telling me how quiet they are patronage wise these days. Even before the floods knocked them out, though they certainly didn't help.

[somebody]

I was talking to the deckhand and he was telling me how quiet they are patronage wise these days. Even before the floods knocked them out, though they certainly didn't help.

I think the fare hikes have hit them.  I question whether they should be a Translink service sometimes.  The full run makes little sense from a public transport point of view, but parts of it do.

[Golliwog]

Mmmmm. I also wonder about some of the terminal locations. For example, would the UQ terminal benefit if it was shifted to be next to the green bridge and so link in with the UQ Lakes bus stop? I have used it to go between UQ and the city, but when compared with buses it doesn't stack up time wise. Certainly a better view though, but the link between West End and UQ/Regatta is certainly a good one.