411 Routing

[Gazza]

What should the 411 do between Toowong and the CBD?

[Golliwog]

Don't particularly care, though I don't think it should be pushed as a route for UQ bound passengers, or as a key BUZ for Milton Rd passengers.

Milton Rd would be better served by one of the current Coro Dr core routes as those on Milton Rd heading outbound are more likely to want to go to Indro or Taringa shops rather than UQ.

[SurfRail]

I don't think all stops routes should go via Coro Drive.  There is more walk-up patronage on Milton Road seeing there is no river on one side.

I think the stops should be resequenced on Coro Drive so it is an express corridor only.  Long term, it only needs to be a local service (eg the 412).

Even longer term, more buses feeding rail at Indooroopilly and Toowong.

[somebody]

I don't think all stops routes should go via Coro Drive.  There is more walk-up patronage on Milton Road seeing there is no river on one side.

I think the stops should be resequenced on Coro Drive so it is an express corridor only.  Long term, it only needs to be a local service (eg the 412).

Even longer term, more buses feeding rail at Indooroopilly and Toowong.

Interesting argument.  No all stops routes at all?  There aren't that many now - 411, 417, 433, 445 + 416(peak).

[SurfRail]

^ 415 as well, plus the 471 before Park Road.  The 471 has no outbound stops before Park Road, and 2 inbound stops.

[#Metro]

Don't particularly care, though I don't think it should be pushed as a route for UQ bound passengers, or as a key BUZ for Milton Rd passengers.

Milton Rd would be better served by one of the current Coro Dr core routes as those on Milton Rd heading outbound are more likely to want to go to Indro or Taringa shops rather than UQ.

Disagree.

UQ is the second largest destination after the Brisbane CBD

BUZ high frequency makes it a very good feeder to Toowong Station both from St. Lucia end and also along Milton Road where it is too far to walk to the station (hilly plus many cuttings in the road).

Coronation Drive has the river on one side (lose 50 % catchment area) and office buildings on the other (lose the other half of the catchment). It is a long walk. With a BUZ 411 + BUZ 440 Western Express along Milton Road, anyone can just walk out, catch a bus to Toowong and go to UQ or Indooroopilly very easily. Every 7.5 minutes, all day!

The suburbs of Toowong, Auchenflower, Milton hold many students who go to UQ

Coronation Drive already has heaps of service, and will have even more service once the Centenary BUZ 400 comes into play plus *deep breath* the P88 plus BUZ 412, plus BUZ 444. I daresay Milton Road will get a BUZ 450 via Western Freeway and Milton Road travelling along it once the network is re-organised as per the CFN.

[#Metro]

If anyone looks in the CFN model, there is a proposed BUZ 440 Western Express that does Centenary then hops on to the Western Freeway, then does Milton Road. Milton Road could have BUZ 411 and this 440 Western Express timed such that there would be a combined BUZ service every 7.5 minutes down Milton Road to Toowong - every 15 minutes to UQ and every 15 minutes to Indooroopilly etc etc. Coronation Drive already has oversupply of buses all day, Milton Road has not so great 470.

[#Metro]

Clearly, easier to get to UQ from where people live in Milton, Toowong, Auchenflower, and significantly larger catchment than it is to get to the BUZ 412....

Note combined Western Express BUZ and UQ 411 BUZ on Milton Road.

[Golliwog]

But at the same time TT, there's enough routes going down Coronation Drive that if you took the 444 out and made it run down Jephson/Croydon Street and then along Milton Rd to the city this would achieve the same goal of improving access along Milton Rd, and there would most likely not be a perceivable change in service along Coronation Drive, and you're not adding a whole new BUZ route.

Not a fan of truncating the 411 at Toowong, but if you want to increase the frequency of the 411 then my suggestion would be to truncate it to run between Toowong and UQ and have it timed to meet the 412 or some other BUZ at Toowong (and have that other bus wait until the 411 arrives). Otherwise I'd look at modifying the 412 to run more often than a standard BUZ (say 6tph or something) and have every second one run on the 411 route.

I still don't believe that there are as many hard done by uni students in Milton/Auchenflower and Toowong as you make out as most would be renting and you wouldn't rent somewhere like that unless you could accept the transport options available to UQ from that location unless you were an idiot.

[#Metro]

But at the same time TT, there's enough routes going down Coronation Drive that if you took the 444 out and made it run down Jephson/Croydon Street and then along Milton Rd to the city this would achieve the same goal of improving access along Milton Rd, and there would most likely not be a perceivable change in service along Coronation Drive, and you're not adding a whole new BUZ route.

This is true. However, UQ is a bigger destination than Indooroopilly - it is second after the CBD (and this is not counting the buses that go over UQ Lakes bridge).

Not a fan of truncating the 411 at Toowong, but if you want to increase the frequency of the 411 then my suggestion would be to truncate it to run between Toowong and UQ and have it timed to meet the 412 or some other BUZ at Toowong (and have that other bus wait until the 411 arrives). Otherwise I'd look at modifying the 412 to run more often than a standard BUZ (say 6tph or something) and have every second one run on the 411 route.

Earlier on I thought about this, and the idea we could just dump pax into the rail system from there - a feeder. Problem then was what does cover Milton Road? Out of these options, the 411 seems to be the only option that has balanced loads in both directions. During peak hours the 411 fills up so transferring to bus is not an option, but perhaps transfer to rail is. So you do have valid points here, and if we do get a BUZ down Milton Road anyway (say a Western Express or other route) key question will be should the 411 BUZ be a feeder terminating at Toowong or should it be something else that goes all the way into the CBD.

I still don't believe that there are as many hard done by uni students in Milton/Auchenflower and Toowong as you make out as most would be renting and you wouldn't rent somewhere like that unless you could accept the transport options available to UQ from that location unless you were an idiot.

Well I totally disagree with this point. It's not true and not only that, suggests that the people of Centenary Suburbs, Bulimba and Northwest are also idiots because they wouldn't live there unless they could accept the transport options available - again arguing for the (not good enough) status quo because we can't imagine a system different from the current.

It is plainly clear from the screenshot from inside the CFN model that Milton Road is superior to Coronation Drive when it comes to residential walk-up. The catchment on Coronation Drive is very limited by the river on one side and office buildings on the other. The rail line embankment forms a further barrier to pedestrian movement. I would suggest that most of the 412 patronage actually comes from St. Lucia and Toowong plus those picked up in the CBD. If a UQ service ran down Milton Road, I think it would boost patronage a lot in both directions.

I think it is amazing we talk so much about big change on this forum, and then when the options are presented it is too scary and all the arguments for keeping the system pretty much the same come out. Be brave and imagine a totally different way to do things!!

[Gazza]

On that map, why are the areas north of Milton Rd marked as student areas 

[#Metro]

Student suburbs for UQ are generally: Taringa, Toowong, Indooroopilly, St. Lucia, Fairfield, Auchenflower and Milton. Obviously UQ staff would also live near the uni as well so demand from them too.

[Gazza]

I don't think many students would live in that area immediately north of Milton Rd, the housing there is an upmarket area, not just cheap old queenslanders.

Disclaimer: My current uni project may or may not involve mapping housing in the Western Creek Catchchement (Milton, Auchenflower, Bardon), including walking all the streets and going through census data

[STB]

Student suburbs for UQ are generally: Taringa, Toowong, Indooroopilly, St. Lucia, Fairfield, Auchenflower and Milton. Obviously UQ staff would also live near the uni as well so demand from them too.

And that's based on...what?  The only real way of knowing is doing what Gazza is doing and getting the university to release data on postcodes to the number of students.  Again TT, you are jumping to conclusions before you have even researched it!

[#Metro]

And that's based on...what?  The only real way of knowing is doing what Gazza is doing and getting the university to release data on postcodes to the number of students.  Again TT, you are jumping to conclusions before you have even researched it!

Yawn. Boring. If you've got data to say that students don't live near the campus, feel free to post it.
It's not hard to figure out which suburbs students live in, just go to UQ Rentals website...

And my other points re balanced loads and Milton Road having better walk up catchment, plus UQ staff also still stands.

[Golliwog]

Argh! It may be boring, but so what? Not all transport planning is fun and sexy. You can't just assume suburbs are student suburbs because they are geographically close-ish to a uni campus! When you're a student you really have 3 options:

1. Live at home
2. Live in a college on campus
3. Rent a place

I took option 1 as I lived in Brisbane and am not far from a decent train line (the FG line) which acceptable interchange options to get to UQ. For those that live further away and can't justify travel expenses (or travel time) as a student can move into one of the colleges (tends to be quite expensive so not an option for many) and the others rent in student accommodation. Why would students rent a place in a suburb close to the uni geographically but with poor actual physical PT connections to the university? There is no sense in that what so ever, unless students aren't planning on catching PT or using active transport to get to PT. They're not going to be living in this place long enough to reasonably expect the PT options to improve before they finish their degree.

In fact I know fellow students who are renting places that are actually further afield than the suburbs you've listed because they're close to a train station or BUZ route that gives them decent access to the uni.

[Gazza]

I think it is amazing we talk so much about big change on this forum, and then when the options are presented it is too scary and all the arguments for keeping the system pretty much the same come out. Be brave and imagine a totally different way to do things!!

No, its just this one idea we don't like. Problem?

The catchment on Coronation Drive is very limited by the river on one side and office buildings on the other.

Office buildings are a good thing though right?

[STB]

Myself at QUT, I live out in the Redlands with my folks, (about a 1hr and 10min PT journey from the Kelvin Grove campus).  Just within my friends (about a dozen or so) at uni for QUT Kelvin Grove campus, they live in suburbs including Holland Park, Caboolture (Bellmere - 2 of my friends in fact live up there, one catches the train, the other drives), Hamilton, Coorparoo, Nerang and Moggil.  Only a select few live around the local area around the university itself, mainly international and interstate students.  And it costs a motza to do so!

My mate up in Caboolture walks 40mins to get to the train station!  Another guy I'm mates with lives on campus at UQ but studies at QUT Kelvin Grove!

There's also only so much housing to go around, and with 20,000-30,000 something students, only a small percentage of them will live close to or on campus.

EDIT: (QUT) - 40,000 students and about 6,000 of them are international - http://www.qut.edu.au/about/the-university

There's also very little housing available around the QUT Gardens Point, TAFE and Griffith University Southbank Campuses.  The majority of students catch PT or drive from areas well away from the university (because it is cheaper and they are usually living with either other students to save money or living with their parents).

I would very safely say that it is similar with both Griffith University and UQ.

EDIT 2: A close friend of mine who goes to Bond Uni on the Gold Coast previously lived in Underwood, now lives in Carindale, and used to drive to/from Bond University while also working (she previously lived with her parents - now on a gap year and working and living on her own).  At the end of the day you don't really get to choose which uni you go to (depending on your rank/OP to get in), and once you have been accepted you generally have two choices, stay where you are (usually with your family as student income is even below what pensioners get), or you move and place a risk on the move with no knowledge on how you do with university or even if you'll be able to survive financially.  With most students dropping out in the first year, the risk is minimal if they stick with their parents who'll generally not live near a university.

[STB]

Argh! It may be boring, but so what? Not all transport planning is fun and sexy. You can't just assume suburbs are student suburbs because they are geographically close-ish to a uni campus! When you're a student you really have 3 options:

1. Live at home
2. Live in a college on campus
3. Rent a place

I took option 1 as I lived in Brisbane and am not far from a decent train line (the FG line) which acceptable interchange options to get to UQ. For those that live further away and can't justify travel expenses (or travel time) as a student can move into one of the colleges (tends to be quite expensive so not an option for many) and the others rent in student accommodation. Why would students rent a place in a suburb close to the uni geographically but with poor actual physical PT connections to the university? There is no sense in that what so ever, unless students aren't planning on catching PT or using active transport to get to PT. They're not going to be living in this place long enough to reasonably expect the PT options to improve before they finish their degree.

In fact I know fellow students who are renting places that are actually further afield than the suburbs you've listed because they're close to a train station or BUZ route that gives them decent access to the uni.

Concur with my previous post.  You can also argue that students generally will also live close to shops and other commercial services to assist with their living needs if they rent.  A lot of students will actually walk if needed but I doubt they would want to walk any further than 1km with a bag full of textbooks and other stuff (depending on the degree they are studying - eg: Law would have more textbooks needed than say the Arts which is what I study, I have zero textbooks this semester!).

[#Metro]

Argh! It may be boring, but so what? Not all transport planning is fun and sexy. You can't just assume suburbs are student suburbs because they are geographically close-ish to a uni campus! When you're a student you really have 3 options:

Students and staff generally live near campus. Also verified independently for other unis as well ---> http://blogs.crikey.com.au/theurbanist/2011/03/30/where-do-university-workers-live/

No-one obviously lives in office buildings. Office buildings have peaky demand due to office hours. Picture is very clear - if there was a UQ BUZ pax for CBD and Milton residential areas would walk to that rather than all the way to coro. Coro has heaps of supply anyway.

The alternative is to reform the 470 and cut the 411 into a feeder. Alternatively leave a centenary BUZ up there and force a change (load balancing issues, not useful for UQ). There may be other alternatives but so far they haven't been well argued for. A centenary BUZ could go down Milton Road, but this would not preclude BUZification of the 411 as well. The question really centres around whether (a) 411 should continue down Milton Road or Coro Drive (I argue heaps of supply on Coro already plus the 412 is already there, so why bother?) and (b) cut the 470 into a feeder or remove it.

Would be nice to see alternatives on a map. The file is there and a lot of painstaking work has gone into making it so people can draw proposals in it.

[Golliwog]

Generally, yes. I'm not disputing that in suburbs closer to universities you will find a high percentage of students. However, you'll also find those that are interested in using PT to get to uni will have rented a place on a PT line to the university, or within what they individually deem to be an acceptable walking/riding distance to a PT stop.

There may well be students living in the area of Milton/Auchenflower you want the 411 to serve, but if they're already there then they're ok walking to the 412 or however else they get to UQ. I cannot see how you can think there is enough demand to justify a UQ bound BUZ along Milton Rd. I can see the demand for Hawken Drive, but there you also have the 427/428 (can't remember which one is the non express one).

[#Metro]

Generally, yes. I'm not disputing that in suburbs closer to universities you will find a high percentage of students. However, you'll also find those that are interested in using PT to get to uni will have rented a place on a PT line to the university, or within what they individually deem to be an acceptable walking/riding distance to a PT stop.

There may well be students living in the area of Milton/Auchenflower you want the 411 to serve, but if they're already there then they're ok walking to the 412 or however else they get to UQ. I cannot see how you can think there is enough demand to justify a UQ bound BUZ along Milton Rd. I can see the demand for Hawken Drive, but there you also have the 427/428 (can't remember which one is the non express one).

I can appreciate that there are other models and proposals. The issue with the current situation is that the 470 isn't that great and doesn't have balanced loads in both directions. A centenary BUZ down Milton Road, while not precluding a BUZ 411, would likely use the Western Freeway and therefore would not be useful for interchange purposes. I don't agree that the current situation is acceptable, because it suggests that the current situation is fine (clearly not if we want a whole of network review) and by extension, also suggests that the residents of Bulimba, Centenary and the Northwest are also accepting of their situation with regards to bad public transport (something that we definitely know is not true).

From the photo we can clearly see that Milton road is better geographically positioned than a service on Coronation Drive for residents in Milton, Auchenflower and some of the back parts of Toowong. This is further borne out by my many trips on BUZ 412 observing that much of the load is (a) picked up in the CBD before the bus heads onto Coronation Drive, (b) picked up from Toowong Station and (a) along Sir Fred Schonell Drive. As a proportion of total patronage, the number of pax from Coronation Drive would be rather small.

Furthermore, the 412 would be the principle way to get to UQ by the majority of pax picked up along Coronation Drive, given the 411's longer route and infrequency. Moving it to Milton Road would be barely noticed on Coronation Drive.

Furthermore, I have pointed out in the CFN model image that the rail embankment and office development and topography of the area also act as a significant pedestrian barrier, on the ground, for those accessing the Coronation Drive by foot and that a closer service to the residential areas of Milton, Auchenflower etc would be preffered by those living there, rather than walking to Coronation Drive. Why? Because the further away you have to walk, the less people do that walk. Yes people will walk further to higher frequency, but as I have already pointed out, there are many barriers to this, and also, if you had the chance to put high frequency on Milton Road, well people would walk to that too, and it would be a short walk.

Coronation Drive has a whole heap of service, and UQ is the second largest destination after the CBD. As a person who lived along Hawken Drive for many years, let me tell you the service is rubbish and there is no way that I would catch the 427/428 and change to rail at Indooroopilly to go to work in the CBD. What a waste of time!

In other words, if you want the status quo, you'll need to mount a pretty strong case for why retention of the 470 is the best option. BUZ 411 will get a lot of pax because it is a versatile route that combines markets - The University, Hawken Drive, connections to rail at Toowong, Toowong Shopping Centre and onward bus connections, Milton Road and Auchenflower office and residential areas and also the CBD at the other end. It will also be a much shorter walk and eliminate a transfer step, saving time as well.

A BUZ 411 Milton Road would (a) have all the patronage the current 470 has, (b) have increased patronage (double?) from the increase in frequency funded by amalgamation and absorption of the funds that ran the 470, (c) have increased patronage from elimination of a transfer step for UQ bound passengers living in these areas and (d) also carry the existing patronage that 411 also had to UQ.

The current 470 service is rubbish and should be CUT ASAP, along with the taxi service that is route 416. The funds liberated from this should then be recycled to boost 411 to BUZ frequency along Milton Road (in the absence of a better proposal from other forum members). The amount of funding required would be a fraction of that required for a brand new, de novo, BUZ route.

[somebody]

But at the same time TT, there's enough routes going down Coronation Drive that if you took the 444 out and made it run down Jephson/Croydon Street and then along Milton Rd to the city this would achieve the same goal of improving access along Milton Rd, and there would most likely not be a perceivable change in service along Coronation Drive, and you're not adding a whole new BUZ route.

Something I've thought about myself for a while.  I'm significantly less keen on it now.  Toowong is where a lot of people on the 444 from the outer suburbs are actually going.  They'd then have to walk down Sherwood Rd or interchange.  Other issue is that Jephson St has a number of traffic lights - enough to make the travel time about the same as via Coro.  Far better to just have one frequent corridor - we don't have that now of course.  Now that I think about it, I'd have a bit more sympathy for the 88 if it went this via Milton Rd way though.

[#Metro]

Something I've thought about myself for a while.  I'm significantly less keen on it now.  Toowong is where a lot of people on the 444 from the outer suburbs are actually going.  They'd then have to walk down Sherwood Rd or interchange.  Other issue is that Jephson St has a number of traffic lights - enough to make the travel time about the same as via Coro.  Far better to just have one frequent corridor - we don't have that now of course.  Now that I think about it, I'd have a bit more sympathy for the 88 if it went this via Milton Rd way though.

Someone suggested that a Centenary BUZ go via Coronation Drive and another one go via Milton Road via the Western Freeway all day. I think this have might been yourself Simon, and I agree.

So far this is the picture in my mind:

Coronation Drive
* BUZ 444 Indooroopilly/Moggill
* BUZ 412 UQ via Coronation Drive
* BUZ 400 Centenary BUZ (formed from the partial amalgamation of P88)
* and any other random non-BUZ routes

Milton Road
* BUZ 411 UQ via Hawken Drive
* BUZ 440 Western Express

I think that is actually quite nice. Coronation Drive gets a base all day frequency of at least a BUZ every 5 minutes all day (heaps!!)
and Milton Road gets a BUZ every 7.5 minutes all day (fantastic!).

And all of this by recycling cash liberated from existing routes (recycle 411, 470 and P88), thus requiring bare minimum additional funding.

[somebody]

My plan was one Centenary-Western Freeway-Milton Rd-CBD, another Centenary-UQ.

[Gazza]

Students and staff generally live near campus. Also verified independently for other unis as well ---> http://blogs.crikey.com.au/theurbanist/2011/03/30/where-do-university-workers-live/

Note that article says staff live in the LGAs closest to the campus, not necessarily the suburbs immeditatley adjacent to the campus. Careful of that difference:

Eg:
This is particularly evident with La Trobe, where 56% of staff reside within the four municipalities closest to the university i.e. Darebin, Banyule, Nillumbik and Whittlesea .

The four most popular municipalities for staff to live in are in the inner city and inner suburbs. The cities of Melbourne, Moreland, Yarra and Boroondara together house 43% of the university's staff.

What about this quote TT too?
It's important to emphasise that these figures relate to workers, not students. I have seen data on the residential addresses of students attending one of the suburban universities. It shows they are less clustered around the university than staff (but still show a strong spatial bias toward it) and are more than twice as likely to live in the inner city. This might be because the suburbs don't offer the same lifestyle advantages for students as the inner city.

[SurfRail]

Something I've thought about myself for a while.  I'm significantly less keen on it now.  Toowong is where a lot of people on the 444 from the outer suburbs are actually going.  They'd then have to walk down Sherwood Rd or interchange.  Other issue is that Jephson St has a number of traffic lights - enough to make the travel time about the same as via Coro.  Far better to just have one frequent corridor - we don't have that now of course.  Now that I think about it, I'd have a bit more sympathy for the 88 if it went this via Milton Rd way though.

Someone suggested that a Centenary BUZ go via Coronation Drive and another one go via Milton Road via the Western Freeway all day. I think this have might been yourself Simon, and I agree.

So far this is the picture in my mind:

Coronation Drive
* BUZ 444 Indooroopilly/Moggill
* BUZ 412 UQ via Coronation Drive
* BUZ 400 Centenary BUZ (formed from the partial amalgamation of P88)
* and any other random non-BUZ routes

Milton Road
* BUZ 411 UQ via Hawken Drive
* BUZ 440 Western Express

I think that is actually quite nice. Coronation Drive gets a base all day frequency of at least a BUZ every 5 minutes all day (heaps!!)
and Milton Road gets a BUZ every 7.5 minutes all day (fantastic!).

And all of this by recycling cash liberated from existing routes (recycle 411, 470 and P88), thus requiring bare minimum additional funding.

Coronation Drive appears to get around 30 buses per hour in the off-peak, Milton Road around 3-4, so I think this is a reasonable outcome and a net saving.

[Golliwog]

But at the same time TT, there's enough routes going down Coronation Drive that if you took the 444 out and made it run down Jephson/Croydon Street and then along Milton Rd to the city this would achieve the same goal of improving access along Milton Rd, and there would most likely not be a perceivable change in service along Coronation Drive, and you're not adding a whole new BUZ route.

Something I've thought about myself for a while.  I'm significantly less keen on it now.  Toowong is where a lot of people on the 444 from the outer suburbs are actually going.  They'd then have to walk down Sherwood Rd or interchange.  Other issue is that Jephson St has a number of traffic lights - enough to make the travel time about the same as via Coro.  Far better to just have one frequent corridor - we don't have that now of course.  Now that I think about it, I'd have a bit more sympathy for the 88 if it went this via Milton Rd way though.

Not exactly sure whats wrong with walking down Sherwood Rd though. It's 170m from the Sherwood/Jephson St intersection to the Toowong tower car park entrance where those workers would be heading, and while some would be wanting the offices between Toowong Station and Sylvan Rd, it's not that much further than they'd already be walking. If the Toowong SC above the station improved their pedestrian access from the river side (ie: stairs here: https://www.nearmap.com/?q=@-27.484831,152.993562&ll=-27.484831,152.993562&z=19&t=k&nmd=20120803) then it be a much shorter walk through the shops.

[somebody]

Might only be 170m but I think the psychological difference is more, and more importantly it makes the service far less conspicuous by only going near its destination rather than through it.

[#Metro]

Coronation Drive appears to get around 30 buses per hour in the off-peak, Milton Road around 3-4, so I think this is a reasonable outcome and a net saving.

Agreed.

Once there is some agreement here, we can move on to the CFN parts of the UQ-Indooroopilly-Chapel Hill and then perhaps tackle Bulimba.

[#Metro]

It's important to emphasise that these figures relate to workers, not students. I have seen data on the residential addresses of students attending one of the suburban universities. It shows they are less clustered around the university than staff (but still show a strong spatial bias toward it) and are more than twice as likely to live in the inner city. This might be because the suburbs don't offer the same lifestyle advantages for students as the inner city.

Are you trying to tell me that Toowong, Auchenflower and Milton aren't inner city suburbs?