LNP: Brisbane Metro Plan

[verbatim9]

Took this at Nottingham Buz stop today in Parkinson today inbound

[SurfRail]

He's right, albeit entirely for the wrong reason.

[Scott]

Becoming increasingly clear the Quirk metro as proposed was nonsense."

I have been following this story from afar and have never been able to make sense of the original Mayoral claims about the project.  First he quoted a very low cost that could only relate to the Alstom entry level Metro (VAL) as in Lyon.  Then he quoted the capacity of the Paris metro trainsets, which are twice the size and three times the price.  Meanwhile this was used to falsely dismiss an LRT alternative on capacity grounds, even though the latest large LRVs are modular and can be coupled together to get capacity rivalling small metros.  The Ottawa Confederation LRT line currenly under construction will have capacity for 20,000 passengers per direction per hour.  And all this includes apparently removing the most critical segment of a very high capaciy busway, that was built at very high cost. 

Cost wise, if this is to be a full underground metro compared to the original political promotion video showing a small surface metro, I would say the cost will conservatively be increased by a factor of five.  Does that make sense?  So we have fundamental decisions about project scope and mode being made without any public release of sufficient technical detail, and comparison with alternatives, to tell if thy are justified.  Also, the current federal government made a great song and dance in the past about projects having economic analysis and BCRs above one.  Does this project still have a BCR above one, if its cost has greatly increased?

I would have thought that if the step has been taken to build a full underground metro at very high cost, but over a very short length, with most passengers having to interchange, it would make more sense to complete the cross river heavy rail and bus tunnel, thus increasing capacity but also eliminating interchange time for bus passengers saving time and distance for all southern heavy rail passengers as well.

Now it is driverless metros.  Well that is very nice but how does it eliminate the need for stabling?  And where will this new and completely separate fleet of rolling stock be maintained?

As for combining the busway and metro projects, there is insufficient detail provided to tell if that makes sense.  If it means one tunnel instead of two it could save a lot of money.  Then again, if the tunnel is limited to Metro gradients (3%) instead of busway (6%) it may increase costs.  Of course, if they went with LRT (max gradient 6-8%) the two could be efficiently combined, but that would mean adopting the opposition's idea.

It is a good thing Brisbane does not have a recent history of building expensive tunnel projects that fail to work as promised or Brisbane ratepayers might get quite concerned about this Then again, those tunnels were also supported by Commonwealth funding, so the rest of us Australian taxpayers ought to be worried too

I see that Metro and ozbob are asking the same questions.  Correctly so.  If this line does go ahead, to symbolize its intelligence and the integrity of the planning process, they should name it after Joh Bjelke Petersen.

[ozbob]

France: Contract awarded to make Lyon metro Line B driverless https://t.co/rggnCfQ5b4 pic.twitter.com/vgv5THBDbn

— Metro Report (@MetroReportInt) January 31, 2017

[verbatim9]

France: Contract awarded to make Lyon metro Line B driverless https://t.co/rggnCfQ5b4 pic.twitter.com/vgv5THBDbn

— Metro Report (@MetroReportInt) January 31, 2017

Is that what Bne will be getting? They look modern and spacious.

[Gazza]

France: Contract awarded to make Lyon metro Line B driverless https://t.co/rggnCfQ5b4 pic.twitter.com/vgv5THBDbn

— Metro Report (@MetroReportInt) January 31, 2017

Is that what Bne will be getting? They look modern and spacious.

How would anyone know what model/manufacturer of train we are getting yet?

[verbatim9]

France: Contract awarded to make Lyon metro Line B driverless https://t.co/rggnCfQ5b4 pic.twitter.com/vgv5THBDbn

— Metro Report (@MetroReportInt) January 31, 2017

Is that what Bne will be getting? They look modern and spacious.

How would anyone know what model/manufacturer of train we are getting yet?

Just being optimistic

[ozbob]

Sent to all outlets:

2nd February 2017

R. I. P. Cross River Rail

Good Morning,

Well it does now seem that Cross River Rail (CRR) is dead.  R.I.P.

Federal Government rejects city cross-river rail network project

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/federal-government-rejects-city-crossriver-rail-network-project/news-story/161a647b4f1c5464b72f6c004d521195

This is no surprise to RAIL Back On Track members.  The vacillation now since 2009 with this project, compounded by the rail fail of late, and no doubt extensive lobbying by the LNP (State and BCC) because they perceive CRR is a ' Labor ' project has jaundiced the view of the present Federal Government, which sadly continues to put politics before sound transport policy.

Until public transport administration and operation is organised along the lines we have suggested, that is the formation of a proper authority: Public Transport Queensland - Brisbane and SEQ will continue its now rapid slide down the sewer of transport failure.

What a diabolical mess successive spineless Governments have created.  Redcliffe Peninsula Line - failure, New Generation Rollingstock - failure, Bus network reform - failure. A railway operator unable to deliver proper service levels.  Poor bus frequency and coverage throughout SEQ. A non-integrated public transport network.

Brisbane City Council will no doubt continue to press their ' metro '.  As we pointed out as originally proposed the metro was an absurdity.  However we are heartened as our attempts to bring this project up to the real world demands might just pay off.  We understand now that the ' metro ' will now be driverless (essential) and will have much more capacity.  It really does need to be capable of delivering 30,000 passengers per hour per direction (pphpd) to warrant the investment and disruption to the core inner bus network.  If a true 30,000 pphpd that is achieved for ' metro ' we will be strong supporters.  With CRR dead, the ' metro ' can be on a much better alignment and future extensions will be possible.

Well done mediocre spineless Governments.  What a basket case you have delivered for Queensland!

Best wishes
Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track https://backontrack.org

Sent to all outlets:

26th January 2017

Public Transport Queensland ?

Good Morning,

Since 2009 public transport for SEQ has been on a serious downhill slide to failure.

The cessation of the duplication project of the Sunshine Coast Line from Beerburrum to Landsborough in 2009 was really a harbinger of the mediocrity to follow.

In 2010 saw the commencement of the 5 year fare strategy for SEQ, which saw fares effectively double in cost and ended up as an abysmal failure.  The recent implementation of the new fare structure for SEQ is perhaps one of a very few shining success stories.

The collapse of the Brisbane Bus network reform in 2013 is another spectacular low-light of shame.  The effects of this linger on.

Now we have chronic under-servicing on the rail network.   Cross River Rail goes around in circles.  The New Generation Rollingstock trains are yet to see revenue passengers - completely botched ordering process.  Similarly, problems linger with the signalling associated with the Redcliffe Peninsula Line and the interface to the rest of the rail network in SEQ.

It is clear that the administration and operation of public transport in SEQ has been a failure.

Band-aids will not sort it, nor will pie in the sky ' Brisbane Metro ' pipe dreams. 

There needs to be complete reorganisation of how public transport is administered and operated in Queensland.

A good model is the Public Transport Authority of Western Australia (see below).

We need to form a proper Statutory Authority - Public Transport Queensland (PTQ).  Under PTQ there would be various divisions.  For example:  Heavy Rail, Light Rail, Ferry, Bus & Coach, Active Transport, Fares and Ticketing, & Infrastructure, Policy, could be some of these.  Under these major divisions would be various branches - for example under Heavy Rail - there could be Suburban rail, Inter-urban rail, Long Distance Passenger Rail services,  and Freight.

PTQ would bring all public transport administration together. It would replace the ' silos of mediocrity ' and replication we have now with TransLink, Queensland Rail, Transport and Main Roads, and BCC.  PTQ would administer the service contracts for all operators, including heavy rail.  It would bring Queensland Rail into a competitive performance based environment as an operator.  A good thing.

I recently visited Western Australia and had the opportunity to experience a very well run and connected public transport network.  Transperth delivers. We cannot say the say the same for TransLink.

Unless proper reform is achieved, SEQ is simply going to stagger on from failure to failure, with even more transport congestion and even more worse outcomes.

It's time to take the big decisions.

Best wishes
Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track https://backontrack.org


Reference:

http://www.pta.wa.gov.au/portals/0/annualreports/2014/content/corporate/organisational-structure.asp

[ozbob]

. @Schrinner G'day! This is effectively a green light for ' metro '.
Provided it delivers a true 30K pphpd you have our support!#qldpol https://t.co/vTe32kjBBr

— Robert Dow (@Robert_Dow) February 1, 2017

^

Latest media: ' R. I. P. Cross River Rail '
> https://t.co/lGwm0LdNl3#qldpol #auspol@QLDLabor @LNPQLD @QldGreens #clusterfuk pic.twitter.com/vYLZu7HtS3

— Robert Dow (@Robert_Dow) February 1, 2017

[#Metro]

SCAM SCAM SCAM

Brisbane Metro .could be a BUS!! It looks like the French Bus-Tram option is going to be it hey?

Unfortunately, that doesn't have the capacity! Cleveland Solution MkII??'

' Banana' buses considered for Brisbane Metro

http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/queensland/banana-buses-considered-for-brisbane-metro-20170228-gumuk8.html

Studies are underway into whether the Quirk administration's signature project, the Brisbane Metro, could be operated by articulated "banana" buses instead of rubber-tyred trams.

TransLohr:

[verbatim9]

^^Just investigating options as Canberra did prior to LRT being approved.

[ozbob]

LOL

We have long suggested the bi-artics on the core busway with proper bus network reform is all that is really needed.

I would like to see the bi-artics electric of course.

I reckon the ' metro ' as proposed is not stacking up ... well we told you so!

[Gazza]

Well, if we did get bi artics, what's the problem?

Means it can go all the way to 8MP, means we get some decent bus priority in the CBD, and doesn't trash the use of the busway by other routes like the 385, 444 etc.

Increasing the use of the busway by higher capacity vehicles (that are potentially fed by feeders) is what we wanted all along right?

Id laugh if they still call it a metro though.

I do find it interesting that this basically replicates what happened with CityGlider though lol....That was supposed to be LRT style BRT....ended up just being wrapped buses 

[ozbob]

http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/queensland/banana-buses-considered-for-brisbane-metro-20170228-gumuk8.html

Studies are underway into whether the Quirk administration's signature project, the Brisbane Metro, could be operated by articulated "banana" buses instead of rubber-tyred trams.

But the councillor charged with delivering the project, deputy mayor Adrian Schrinner, insisted on Tuesday it was incumbent on the council to look at all options.

The admission came in the council's public and active transport committee on Tuesday morning, under questioning by Labor councillor Jared Cassidy (Deagon).

Cr Cassidy asked Cr Schrinner about comments Lord Mayor Graham Quirk had made at a recent suburban civic cabinet meeting, that the metro's business case would look at a high-capacity bus system instead.

Cr Schrinner conceded that such a bus-based system would form part of the business case, but said that was a requirement for both the state and federal governments.

"We, as part of our 10-point plan last year, made it clear that we had to have a strong focus on high-capacity buses in the bus network in general," he said.

"As part of the metro business case, we've made no secret of the fact that, in order to present that case to the state and federal governments, we do have to look at a range of different options.

"Standard practice with infrastructure projects, and Cross River Rail is going through the hoops at the moment with this, is that they will ask you, particularly at the Infrastructure Australia level: 'You've come up with a particular project, have you considered alternative options? What alternatives have you looked at? Have you considered how they might be implemented and what the potential business cases for those alternative options are?'
"So, ultimately, the federal government and, in this case, the state government would want to have those questions answered and that's exactly what we're doing as part of the business case.

"We're looking at a range of options and we need to do that in order to present a thorough business case."

When Cr Cassidy asked whether that meant the Brisbane Metro "could be banana buses, rather than a rubber-tyred metro", Cr Schrinner said the council had to look at a range of options.

"Absolutely," he said. "That's part of the business case."

It was not the first Brisbane Metro surprise to come out of the council's committee system.

Last November, Cr Schrinner revealed to the committee the council was considering a fully automated, driverless Brisbane Metro.

[SurfRail]

All options excluding helping fund CRR and redesign the bus network that is.

[Derwan]

All options excluding helping fund CRR and redesign the bus network that is.

With the money they're saving by just buying a few extra banana buses (instead of building a metro), surely they could make a contribution to CRR.....   

[BrizCommuter]

So as we though, Quirk's gone bananas! 

[verbatim9]

Might as well convert the busways to a shared LRT/Busway. Run LRT along the outside lanes each way along Pinelands road Sunnybank Hills and Mains Road Sunnybank and Robertson to connect and run along the converted Busway. Also run LRT along the Eastern Busway then Coorparoo to Carindale (Transit interchange) travelling on the outside lanes and terminate at Chandler sports centre. The same can happen on the Northern Busway with the portal extended to Kedron or Chermside?

[Stillwater]

The battle lines appear to be forming ... vote ALP for CRR (Mk4) or vote LNP for Brisbane Metro.

[#Metro]

Light Rail: 350 pax x 30 trams/hour = 10 500 pphd. Not an improvement.

Bus depends on capacity.
150 pax buses need 200 buses/hr to reach 30 000 pphd target.

That's a bus every 18 seconds.

300 pax buses need 100 buses/hour to reach 30 000 pphd target.

That's a bus every 36 seconds.

Buses are likely to be cheaper and can simplify the network on arterial roads, but their operating  cost will be higher as the metro can be driverless. The SE busway is capable of supporting a metro train (1000 pax) every 5 minutes during peak hour on current patronage.

[Gazza]

The operating cost would still be lower than the status quo though...

[HappyTrainGuy]

How the hell are operating costs going to be lower just because its driverless? So your going to outlay a bucket load on making the entire system driverless - which I assumes removing all traffic conflict points on its route but keeping the majority of the bus network propped up bleeding all over the shop - and all because you save a few extra drivers going to the city??? You can achieve the same result by cutting the amount of buses that already go to the city and not lose any patronage. Not to mention many bus routes as it is now shouldn't even be going along the busway let alone all the way to the city. It's still p%ssing into the wind if all this bullsh%t is outlayed and we still end up with the same p%ss poor busnetwork that we already have which is the reason why operating costs are so high with poor return for such low patronage. And don't quote that polly bull crap busway stats. I've seen enough crap already this week.

It's a simple solution. Redesign Brisbane's bus network from scratch. Get more buses feeding into railway stations. Upgrade railway infrastructure/CRR/Trouts Road as they are the real people movers for going to the city. Establish key corridors. Establish key interchange hubs. Then see how much the precious metro or LRT or whatever is actually needed. As I've shared photos here before buses that use gympie road are virtually empty after 6pm and when they are full that's because they are occupied by those that shouldn't even be on that bus for starters. Also make all busway stops prepaid only. Its not that difficult.

[HappyTrainGuy]

Might as well convert the busways to a shared LRT/Busway. Run LRT along the outside lanes each way along Pinelands road Sunnybank Hills and Mains Road Sunnybank and Robertson to connect and run along the converted Busway. Also run LRT along the Eastern Busway then Coorparoo to Carindale (Transit interchange) travelling on the outside lanes and terminate at Chandler sports centre. The same can happen on the Northern Busway with the portal extended to Kedron or Chermside?

Seen how empty buses are running along Gympie road after 6pm???

[Gazza]

I should expand my post.

If we put bi-artics on the busway, we'll save money compared to the status quo.

It won't be as cheap to run as an established driverless metro, but considering the cost and interest of a conversion, there probably is very little difference over a 20 year period.

So why be disappointed that it's artics?

[James]

It won't be as cheap to run as an established driverless metro, but considering the cost and interest of a conversion, there probably is very little difference over a 20 year period.

So why be disappointed that it's artics?

I hate to say it, but the downgrading of the Brisbane Metro to a non-project (i.e. the purchase of bi-artic buses and the stringing up of wires to support electric buses) could be the best thing to come out of the Brisbane Metro. Far more sensible than a $1.5bn+ Brisbane Metro which shuts the busway for 6 years and will probably gain little in terms of saved driver resources.

[verbatim9]

Might as well convert the busways to a shared LRT/Busway. Run LRT along the outside lanes each way along Pinelands road Sunnybank Hills and Mains Road Sunnybank and Robertson to connect and run along the converted Busway. Also run LRT along the Eastern Busway then Coorparoo to Carindale (Transit interchange) travelling on the outside lanes and terminate at Chandler sports centre. The same can happen on the Northern Busway with the portal extended to Kedron or Chermside?

Seen how empty buses are running along Gympie road after 6pm???

The buses are quite full until RBH at night (subsidising the run). LRT or Metro will intice patronage. For some reason people who don't use buses will use LRT or Metro. Chermside will turn into a mini micro city and will require LRT or Metro going forward

[verbatim9]

It won't be as cheap to run as an established driverless metro, but considering the cost and interest of a conversion, there probably is very little difference over a 20 year period.

So why be disappointed that it's artics?

I hate to say it, but the downgrading of the Brisbane Metro to a non-project (i.e. the purchase of bi-artic buses and the stringing up of wires to support electric buses) could be the best thing to come out of the Brisbane Metro. Far more sensible than a $1.5bn+ Brisbane Metro which shuts the busway for 6 years and will probably gain little in terms of saved driver resources.

Be cool to have trolley buses again. The tech has improved and apparently no need to have catenary strung all the way just at terminating and turnaround points.

[HappyTrainGuy]

Might as well convert the busways to a shared LRT/Busway. Run LRT along the outside lanes each way along Pinelands road Sunnybank Hills and Mains Road Sunnybank and Robertson to connect and run along the converted Busway. Also run LRT along the Eastern Busway then Coorparoo to Carindale (Transit interchange) travelling on the outside lanes and terminate at Chandler sports centre. The same can happen on the Northern Busway with the portal extended to Kedron or Chermside?

Seen how empty buses are running along Gympie road after 6pm???

The buses are quite full until RBH at night (subsidising the run). LRT or Metro will intice patronage. For some reason people who don't use buses will use LRT or Metro. Chermside will turn into a mini micro city and will require LRT or Metro going forward

Inbound or outbound? You can easily extend many of the existing busway services a few extra stops to turn around at the RBHW (services which usually have higher capacity buses and are already running past key busway stops) rather than using RBWH-Chermside-Carseldine-Bracken Ridge routes as a justification for running 12bph in each direction because it might offset it a little. Inbound is a massive joke during the night. 12bph with a lot of the time with no one on them and that's before and after chermside. And outbound gets pretty quite too. 330 are very frequently running with hardly anyone on them Chermside-RBWH in both directions. 333 on the other hand is more than capable of filling in the few people heading home.

Micro city? Come off it. Chermside is only 'popular' because of the shopping center. Once its outside of the shops opening hours the place empties and the are is just another local suburb like Aspley. Its still very much a car driven suburb. What makes it a micro city? a few apartment buildings? Please. The biggest employment hub in that area is the Prince Charles Hospital and look how many buses they got going there yet a empty shopping center at 10pm still has 12bph.

[James]

All due credit to Chermside, it is a mini-CBD, much like Indooroopilly, Garden City and Carindale.

However, much like the other three hubs, the surrounding offices, businesses and so forth empty out by about 6pm, and Brisbane being the overgrown country town it is, most of the restaurants in the area close around 9pm at the latest unless it is a Friday or Saturday night. I wouldn't be so harsh, there is still certainly greater demand for travel to Chermside over Aspley thanks to Park 'n' Ride in surrounding streets and the frequency of service.

I do agree on Gympie Rd's over-servicing. there is nowhere in Brisbane deserving of 12bph after 9pm at night (by planning, rather than just by design - naturally Adelaide St and the inner busway will have 12bph due to overlapping BUZ services).

You can easily extend many of the existing busway services a few extra stops to turn around at the RBHW

Or run more 66s Those UQ students would love those Park Rd connections after 9:30pm...

[aldonius]

I agree 100% with James.

The final northbound 66 of the night departs at 9:30, for reference.

I can tell you all now that there are still plenty of people on campus at 9:30pm.

[HappyTrainGuy]

You can easily extend many of the existing busway services a few extra stops to turn around at the RBHW

Or run more 66s Those UQ students would love those Park Rd connections after 9:30pm...

You mean those business suit uni students?? 

[ozbob]

Discussion for new ' metro ' plan using bi-articulated buses

>> https://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=12687.0

This thread is now locked.