Downer EDI pulls out of Queensland Rail tender

[ozbob]

From the Fraser Coast Chronicle click here!

Bombardier train bid on track

Bombardier train bid on track

12th March 2011

THE MARYBOROUGH workforce has been offered a glimmer of hope with confirmation that Bombardier will still put in a bid for the billion-dollar train contract for Queensland Rail.

While a Bombardier spokesman said the company could not yet confirm its position after Downer EDi pulled out of its joint venture, Treasurer Andrew Fraser and Queensland Rail have both verified that Bombardier is still a contender.

"I am advised that Apex Rail Consortium still intends to bid, with Bombardier Transportation taking the lead," Queensland Rail chief executive Paul Scurrah said.

He said it was important to note that there were still three bidders for the New Generation rollingstock contract.

It is believed Bombardier may ask QR for an extension to the tender process, to allow more time to formulate a solo bid.

Member for Maryborough Chris Foley said he would try to smooth the waters for Bombardier, as he had for the Bombardier-Downer EDi joint venture.

"Bombardier has a very good case for winning the tender," he said.

"They are the largest train manufacturer in the world, and they have a much healthier bank balance than Downer EDi.

"We can't afford to take our foot off the pedal. We have to do what we can to help Bombardier win the contract."

AMWU state secretary Andrew Dettmer said while it was positive news that Bombardier was going ahead with its bid, it may be a lesser win for Maryborough.

"Bombardier only employs about 100 staff in Maryborough, mostly in the electronics field," he said.

"The majority of its train production takes place in Melbourne. So if they do win the contract, there's no guarantee where they will do the work."

Speculation has also been rising that another bidder, UGL, was planning to give up on the tender process, but a spokesman for the company yesterday moved to quash the rumour.

[BrizCommuter]

None of the articles have given a timeframe for the delivery of these 200 trains. I would think it would be a fairly long term project. Does QR even have the stabling space available for these trains yet? CRR talks about using the Clapham yards, but are these ready yet?

Given the age of some of the EMUs, BrizCommuter would expect that many of these 200 trains will be replacing existing trains?

[petey3801]

None of the articles have given a timeframe for the delivery of these 200 trains. I would think it would be a fairly long term project. Does QR even have the stabling space available for these trains yet? CRR talks about using the Clapham yards, but are these ready yet?

Given the age of some of the EMUs, BrizCommuter would expect that many of these 200 trains will be replacing existing trains?

87 of the 200 new units will be used to displace the EMUs. Whether that is the first 87, the last 87 or something in between is another question. One would expect they EMUs would start to be withdrawn once Queensland Rail had enough units to cover services and as the EMUs started coming up to major maintenance time. So it's quite possible the EMUs may be withdrawn throughout the delivery of all 200 NGR units (if that makes sense...).

[ButFli]

Plenty of maintenance is outsourced to Australian companies operating in Australia and no one gives a sh%t.

Is this true for Qantas though?  I didn't know that there are any outsourced Boeing/Airbus maintenance organisations in Australia.  Labour would be too expensive, as is ferry costs of getting the planes to Australia.

I have no idea about Qantas's commercial arrangements with regard to maintenance of its aircraft within Australia. I can tell you that for a number of years Virgin Blue outsourced its maintenance within Australia an nobody seemed to mind. Almost all maintenance of Defence Force equipment (especially aircraft) is outsourced and I have never heard anyone complain that "the safety of our troops" is in jeopardy because of it. Curiously some airlines outsource their maintenance to Qantas itself within Australia. I don't hear anyone complaining that these airlines are less safe because they have outsourced their maintenance.

Applying this to the train situation...
Manufacture of these new trains will be "outsourced" - QR will not be doing it itself. Everyone seems to think that trains manufactured in Maryborough will be good quality but a large number of people think that trains manufactured overseas will be bad quality and cause crashes. The difference between the two isn't outsourcing, it's "offshoring". People are afraid of foreign trains. I say that because this is not based on evidence it is caused by xenophobia.

Downer EDI must have considered that the high aussie dollar would have affected their bottom line, compared with costs overseas. 

But they are being paid in Australian dollars and they are importing many of the raw materials and components from overseas. A high Australian dollar would make them more profitable in that situation, not less.

[mufreight]

None of the articles have given a timeframe for the delivery of these 200 trains. I would think it would be a fairly long term project. Does QR even have the stabling space available for these trains yet? CRR talks about using the Clapham yards, but are these ready yet?

Given the age of some of the EMUs, BrizCommuter would expect that many of these 200 trains will be replacing existing trains?

Work has commenced on the new stabling facilities at Redbank, size unknown but there would be room there for stabling for at least 24 x 6 car trains, possibly 30 so that would be a considerable start to suplement Mayne.

[somebody]

Given the age of some of the EMUs, BrizCommuter would expect that many of these 200 trains will be replacing existing trains?

Seems to be the thinking.  I'm not sure what exactly is wrong with the EMUs though.  Only annoying thing is those "clunks" which usually see most of the lights go out.  Although the traction poor EM60-79 are a limitation.

[petey3801]

None of the articles have given a timeframe for the delivery of these 200 trains. I would think it would be a fairly long term project. Does QR even have the stabling space available for these trains yet? CRR talks about using the Clapham yards, but are these ready yet?

Given the age of some of the EMUs, BrizCommuter would expect that many of these 200 trains will be replacing existing trains?

Work has commenced on the new stabling facilities at Redbank, size unknown but there would be room there for stabling for at least 24 x 6 car trains, possibly 30 so that would be a considerable start to suplement Mayne.

Initially will be built for 6x 6-car sets AIUI.

[petey3801]

Given the age of some of the EMUs, BrizCommuter would expect that many of these 200 trains will be replacing existing trains?

Seems to be the thinking.  I'm not sure what exactly is wrong with the EMUs though.  Only annoying thing is those "clunks" which usually see most of the lights go out.  Although the traction poor EM60-79 are a limitation.

The neutral sections? They effect all trains... It's just some have the lights go off (most EMUs, 100/200s) and some don't (160/260s). Purely a matter of power saving (ie: When there is a loss of overhead power, the passenger compartments go onto emergency lighting in order to conserve battery power for things like the Control Radio/Comms etc.).

Main thing that will be going against the EMUs is the rising cost of maintenance. Some are over 30 years old now and parts wouldn't be getting cheaper...

[somebody]

Given the age of some of the EMUs, BrizCommuter would expect that many of these 200 trains will be replacing existing trains?

Seems to be the thinking.  I'm not sure what exactly is wrong with the EMUs though.  Only annoying thing is those "clunks" which usually see most of the lights go out.  Although the traction poor EM60-79 are a limitation.

The neutral sections? They effect all trains... It's just some have the lights go off (most EMUs, 100/200s) and some don't (160/260s). Purely a matter of power saving (ie: When there is a loss of overhead power, the passenger compartments go onto emergency lighting in order to conserve battery power for things like the Control Radio/Comms etc.).

Main thing that will be going against the EMUs is the rising cost of maintenance. Some are over 30 years old now and parts wouldn't be getting cheaper...

Is that what causes that.  There you go.  What happens if a 3 car train is stopped in a neutral section?  Can it get out on it's own, or does it need to be pushed/pulled?

[#Metro]

So that's what it is! 

I hate these sections, it's horrible for passengers!  
There is one coming off the Merivale Bridge into Roma Street.

You're going along and then suddenly BOOM! This big bang sound happens and all the light go out and the cabin is plunged into darkness.

When was the last time anyone caught a bus or a ferry and all the lights suddenly went out and you heard loud boom sounds?
That's right- NEVER!!

The sooner this horrible experience is removed from the rail system, the better.

[Stillwater]

I bet the governmnt sticks to the line that it has '200 new sets' entering service and remains silent about the number being retired.  Two hundred is a good round figure, and '113 extra sets' just confuses the public, doesn't it.  Where do old, disused trains go -- other than to Auckland.

[somebody]

The sooner this horrible experience is removed from the rail system, the better.

A bit unlikely to remove the neutral sections with AC electrification, but you could have full time emergency lighting.  Or maybe a cross feed between front and back units, although I doubt this.

[Gazza]

Is that what causes that.  There you go.  What happens if a 3 car train is stopped in a neutral section?  Can it get out on it's own, or does it need to be pushed/pulled?

So that's what it is!

Woah, hang on a sec, so here we are on a forum full of train nuts, yet neither of you guys knew what a netural section was 

I always thought the fact that the bang happens right when you go past an electrical substation, and when you look across to the lines next to you there is a rod of white non-conductive material joining the lines either side that it would be dead giveaway as to what it's for.

When was the last time anyone caught a bus or a ferry and all the lights suddenly went out and you heard loud boom sounds?
That's right- NEVER!!

If you want a quieter ride, perhaps just sit in a carriage not underneath the pantograph. I think this is where the relay is located, hence the source of the bang sound.

The sooner this horrible experience is removed from the rail system, the better.

but you could have full time emergency lighting.  Or maybe a cross feed between front and back units, although I doubt this.

The problem has already been solved though. Newer trains (Eg SMU 260s, some of the SMU 220s, IMU 160s, some of the other IMUs, but not all etc) have much quieter relays that make more of a softer knock sound rather than a bang.
And the trains  have either more battery backup, or use supercapacitors or something, because all the lights stay on, rather than just the emergency ones.

In fact, in the newest trains the only way you can tell you have gone through the neutral section is because the aircon stops for a few seconds.

[HappyTrainGuy]

Get out and push is the answer. They have some power left/backed up for emergencies, lighting, train operations and communications but no where near enough to move an entire train from a dead start (IIRC its to prevent a sudden release or a supply of electricity if it derails or crashes). The 'bangs' are electricity when you go from one overhead power network to another (Caboolture line past Northgate and Cleveland line past Park Road are two other examples). Think of it if you unplug and light and plug it back in to the socket beside it. If both sockets are live you hear electricity for a split. Same result in a nutshell. They are also designed in areas where a train will never come to come to a complete stop so prior momentum pushes the trains through the neutral area. The best example of this is the Virginia-Northgate area on the North Coast Line. Its on a 100kph part of the track.

[Gazza]

The 'bangs' are electricity when you go from one overhead power network to another (Caboolture line past Northgate and Cleveland line past Park Road are two other examples). Think of it if you unplug and light and plug it back in to the socket beside it. If both sockets are live you hear electricity for a split. Same result in a nutshell.

It's not really the sound of electrical arcing is it?  The bang is just the sound of the mechanical relay switch opening and closing.

[mufreight]

The bang is the overhead circut breaker closing, this is usually a large air operated high speed switch and the lowd bang is when it closes and restores the power.
As for the possibility of a three car set becoming stranded in the neutral section observation shows that there are no signals that would require a train to come to a stand under a nutral section which is less than 1/2 metre in length and even at a low speed under brakeing a train will roll more than that distance on level track, if the track is at grade and a train achieved the almost imposible and came to a stand under the neutral section then by simply releasing the brakes it would roll out or through the neutral section, so no practical problem.

[somebody]

The bang is the overhead circut breaker closing, this is usually a large air operated high speed switch and the lowd bang is when it closes and restores the power.
As for the possibility of a three car set becoming stranded in the neutral section observation shows that there are no signals that would require a train to come to a stand under a nutral section which is less than 1/2 metre in length and even at a low speed under brakeing a train will roll more than that distance on level track, if the track is at grade and a train achieved the almost imposible and came to a stand under the neutral section then by simply releasing the brakes it would roll out or through the neutral section, so no practical problem.

Thanks.

[petey3801]

Given the age of some of the EMUs, BrizCommuter would expect that many of these 200 trains will be replacing existing trains?

Seems to be the thinking.  I'm not sure what exactly is wrong with the EMUs though.  Only annoying thing is those "clunks" which usually see most of the lights go out.  Although the traction poor EM60-79 are a limitation.

The neutral sections? They effect all trains... It's just some have the lights go off (most EMUs, 100/200s) and some don't (160/260s). Purely a matter of power saving (ie: When there is a loss of overhead power, the passenger compartments go onto emergency lighting in order to conserve battery power for things like the Control Radio/Comms etc.).

Main thing that will be going against the EMUs is the rising cost of maintenance. Some are over 30 years old now and parts wouldn't be getting cheaper...

Is that what causes that.  There you go.  What happens if a 3 car train is stopped in a neutral section?  Can it get out on it's own, or does it need to be pushed/pulled?

If a 3-car gets stuck in a neutral section, it may roll forward (or backwards with the correct authority from Control) if the grade is good enough to do so. If it is level track and the train gets stuck in the neutral section (worst case scenario - in the actual dead section), another train needs to push/pull it out.
A Neutral section is generally around 20 metres long, however the actual dead section is only around one metre long.

The sooner this horrible experience is removed from the rail system, the better.

You can't simply get rid of Neutral sections, without them, we simly wouldn't have an electrified network (well, not a functioning one anyway). The neutral sections are used to keep the two electrical substation sections apart. If you don't like the bang, don't sit in the second car of  the 3-car set.

A bit unlikely to remove the neutral sections with AC electrification, but you could have full time emergency lighting.  Or maybe a cross feed between front and back units, although I doubt this

The newer units (ie: 160/260 and 220s) have all lighting stay on through Neutral sections, however this severely limits the battery time when the power DOES go out. This means the amout of time that the traincrew have with Control is quite limited over the radio when sh!t hits the fan.

The 'bangs' are electricity when you go from one overhead power network to another (Caboolture line past Northgate and Cleveland line past Park Road are two other examples). Think of it if you unplug and light and plug it back in to the socket beside it. If both sockets are live you hear electricity for a split. Same result in a nutshell.

Rubbish. The loud bang (on the EMUs, less noticable on the newer units due to different methods/mechanisms of opening/closing the MCB) is the sound of the MCB (Main Circuit Breaker) opening and closing. Nothing to do with the Electricity. The MCB is opened (ie: power turned off to the unit) well before the change of substations (dead zone). The MCB doesn't close until well after the dead zone has been passed.

[somebody]

The MCB is opened (ie: power turned off to the unit) well before the change of substations (dead zone). The MCB doesn't close until well after the dead zone has been passed.

What signals it to open and close?

[O_128]

While i often have something to complain about with QR it is never the trains ( though lack of them is an issue) and after traveling extensively through Europe can proudly say that our trains are world class, its a real shame EDI wont be competing for the tender as the only trains on par with the SMUs would be the new S bahn stock in berlin

[colinw]

I would suggest that there are far more important things for us to worry about than whether a few circuit breakers go "clunk" when you pass beneath a neutral section in the catenary.  The newer trains don't make nearly as much noise, and the EMUs are probably only with us for 10 or so years at most.

In my Beenleigh line travels I have not noticed any particular level of passenger agitation at Upper Roma St or Yeerongpilly neutral sections.

In any electrified system neutral sections in the overhead are going to exist, and cause some kind of effect when the pantograph passes through them.  What occurs in the EMUs is entirely typical for 1970s rollingstock, and comparable ASEA/ABB 25KV electric trains overseas would do the same thing.  I have experienced something similar (although a little muted compared to the EMUs) the 25KV West Coast Mainline in the UK.

Move along, nothing to see here ...

[railguy83]

The MCB is opened (ie: power turned off to the unit) well before the change of substations (dead zone). The MCB doesn't close until well after the dead zone has been passed.

What signals it to open and close?

There are magnets on the track that tell the train it is entering/leaving a neutral section (two yellow magnets on the ends of the sleepers)

If you look on the ramp out of Darra into Springfield Flyover, you should be able to see it on NearMap (it is across all the lines, Mains, Subs and Spur near this location)

[petey3801]

The MCB is opened (ie: power turned off to the unit) well before the change of substations (dead zone). The MCB doesn't close until well after the dead zone has been passed.

What signals it to open and close?

There are magnets on the track that tell the train it is entering/leaving a neutral section (two yellow magnets on the ends of the sleepers)

If you look on the ramp out of Darra into Springfield Flyover, you should be able to see it on NearMap (it is across all the lines, Mains, Subs and Spur near this location)

Correct, they are generally located 20 metres either side of the dead section (although in certain areas this is shorter). There is a reciever on the middle car (both sides) that activates the MCB as the train goes past the magnets.

[somebody]

DC doesn't need neutral sections, of course.

[railguy83]

The MCB is opened (ie: power turned off to the unit) well before the change of substations (dead zone). The MCB doesn't close until well after the dead zone has been passed.

What signals it to open and close?

There are magnets on the track that tell the train it is entering/leaving a neutral section (two yellow magnets on the ends of the sleepers)

If you look on the ramp out of Darra into Springfield Flyover, you should be able to see it on NearMap (it is across all the lines, Mains, Subs and Spur near this location)

Correct, they are generally located 20 metres either side of the dead section (although in certain areas this is shorter). There is a reciever on the middle car (both sides) that activates the MCB as the train goes past the magnets.

Link for Nearmap:   
http://www.nearmap.com/?q=@-27.5679667,152.9482973&ll=-27.567967,152.948297&z=21&t=k&nmd=20110114

[Derwan]

Back on topic...

87 of the 200 new units will be used to displace the EMUs. Whether that is the first 87, the last 87 or something in between is another question.

For a summary of plans (as at just over a year ago), have a look here:  http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=2559.msg21375#msg21375

The count of "New Generation" trains is actually 198, which I guess just gets rounded to 200.