Article: Call for a major review

[Fares_Fair]

Maroochy Journal
Friday 27 May, 2011
by Sherine Conyers

Call for a major review

[mufreight]

Maroochy Journal
Friday 27 May, 2011
by Sherine Conyers

Call for a major review

I would doubt that there is need for any further reviews, what is required is some construction of infrastructure.  NOW

[ozbob]

Read the article.  There is no point in continuing to build 'half baked projects' eg. Corinda to Darra, Oxley bus stop B etc.  Get it right from the outset.  Much public funds are wasted in going back and correcting. 

The article was on this release: 

Media release 20 May 2011

SEQ: Recent rail transport projects 'half baked'

RAIL Back On Track (http://backontrack.org) a web based community support group for rail and public transport and an advocate for public transport passengers has called for a complete review of how rail based transport projects are cast in south-east Queensland.  A series of blunders with recent projects is just adding exponentially to long term costs.

Robert Dow, Spokesman for RAIL Back On Track said:

"A number of recent rail transport projects in south-east have been partially botched fundamentally as a result of poor project design. Here are some examples."

"Oxley railway station is presently receiving a cosmetic tart-up. A failure to build the fourth platform at Oxley as part of the Corinda to Darra track amplification project, coupled with a failure to electrify fully the up suburban line (the 'freight line') is already causing considerable conflicts between freight trains and suburban services (1).  In many cases freight trains are not using the 'freight' line but are continuing to use the main lines, this further confirms the non-utility of the present track configuration from Corinda through to Darra West."

"The subway at Oxley railway station has had recent cosmetic improvements (2). Cracks in the wall have been mortared over but water seepage continues. It is highly likely that expensive mitigation works will be needed when the opportunity to properly fix the structural issues was passed over during recent construction of platform 3 at Oxley during the track amplification project. Initial construction of Oxley bus stop B was botched (3), and lay idle whilst authorities feuded over who was responsible.  It finally got fixed up but at great cost and inconvenience to all.  Surely it is better to do  projects right from the outset?"

"There is a requirement for public transport infrastructure to be compliant for disabled access.  Platforms at Fortitude Valley, Indooroopilly, Oxley and Darra are too low.  These platforms could have been built at a better height during recent construction works with a bit more foresight.  Millions of dollars will be required to come back and fix these oversights down the track."

"The truncation of the track amplification project on the Sunshine Coast line at Beerburrum, rather than Landsborough as originally planned is now having very serious repercussions in the lack of train capacity (4).  Government rhetoric for transport solutions such as detailed in the draft Connecting SEQ 2031 document is simply not being matched by rational infrastructure development."

"Present planning for the Springfield railway line does not include the construction of the Ellen Grove station as part of the initial construction (5).  This station is going to be built later, after the railway is actually operating as far as we are aware.  Again, this is just going to add excessive costs in the longer term to come back and build it.  It is far preferable to build the railway station at Ellen Grove as a 'greenfield' project, rather than around a busy operating railway in a few more years.  In fact a staged expansion of the Springfield railway to first Ellen Grove and then Springfield Central would see the line operating earlier."

"It is not difficult to understand why we are concerned.  Surely it is better to get these expensive projects right first time?"

References:

1. http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=944.msg54671#msg54671

2. http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=4547.msg54146#msg54146

3. http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=3294.msg19516#msg19516

4. http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=5377.0

5. http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=3940.0

Contact:

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org

[Gazza]

Present planning for the Springfield railway line does not include the construction of the Ellen Grove station as part of the initial construction (5).  This station is going to be built later, after the railway is actually operating as far as we are aware.  Again, this is just going to add excessive costs in the longer term to come back and build it.  It is far preferable to build the railway station at Ellen Grove as a 'greenfield' project, rather than around a busy operating railway in a few more years.  In fact a staged expansion of the Springfield railway to first Ellen Grove and then Springfield Central would see the line operating earlier

I still want to dispute this point.

For starters, there seems to be little difference in cost between building greenfield and building on a working line. Narangba will cost $23 Mil . Varsity Lakes cost $25 Million. Richlands cost $40 Million!


Narangba is pretty being redone from scratch, with platform raising and a very fancy design, yet it will cost $3 million less than the 'greenfield Varsity' Lakes station!

The second point is that even if it did cost more to build on a working line, there are costs associated with operating a station 'sooner' than it is needed....staffing, maintenance, security etc that will act to even things out.

Still, the second point is moot because it doesn't really cost more to build on a working line.

[somebody]

It does seem intuitive that it would be more expensive to build on a running line than greenfield, all other things being equal though, doesn't it?

[ozbob]

Dispute all you like Gazza.  It is clearly more affordable time wise to build greenfield and construction costs escalate on a brown field project around an operating railway. Darra being a good example.  I have spoken to a number of engineers and they confirm that basic premise.  You also need to cost in the closures.  Ellen Grove is not Richlands and a basic functional station at Ellen Grove would be just the thing, and could also be used for staged opening as well.  Richlands was an expensive station for a number of reasons.  Major earthworks, if you track back to the beginning of the thread you will note it was just light bush and paddocks. Also extensive car parks as well as the corridor extensions in preparation for the line to Ellen Gove and eventually Springfield.  In fact Richlands was not at the same standard of finish as Varsity Lakes as well, if it was it would have been even more expensive.

And the good news is there is a re-think going on with Ellen Grove.  Commonsense just might prevail yet.

[ozbob]

Some stations in Victoria (4)  being built around operating railways are now to cost $220 million ($55 million each roughly), up from a 2006 estimate of around $60 million for three (one added later).  Clearly if the opportunity is there to build Ellen Grove now go for it.  These costs have tripled since 2006.  Ellen Grove is a no frills station by comparison.  The longer we wait the more expensive it will become though, and it is stupid not build greenfield if it can be.

Background http://www.transport.vic.gov.au/web23/home.nsf/headingpagesdisplay/public+transportrailway+stations

And http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/labor-in-transport-cost-blowout-20100818-12f4p.html

[mufreight]

Present planning for the Springfield railway line does not include the construction of the Ellen Grove station as part of the initial construction  It is far preferable to build the railway station at Ellen Grove as a 'greenfield' project, rather than around a busy operating railway in a few more years.  In fact a staged expansion of the Springfield railway to first Ellen Grove and then Springfield Central would see the line operating earlier

I still want to dispute this point.

Well Gazza sory about this but the stations that you have based your comparisons on are an oranges and bananas comparison, a selective presentation of incomplete figures to support an argument that has more holes in it than a wire netting canoe.
Taking Oxley as an example the fourth platform and wireing of the fourth track from Corinda to the Panhard Street crossover was costed at $20 million as part of the Corinda Darra duplication.  The anticipated start up costs to carry out this work in 2016 have been estimated at $17 million with the actual construction costs at that time are estimated to blow out to $53 million, a portion of this inflated construction cost running into millions is a direct consequence of the work now needing to be carried out on a working track.
Ellen Grove has no need of an overly fancy monument to some artitect but it does have a need for a simple modern functional disability compliant station.
The construction of this station as a greenfield project to a simple functional design would considerably reduce the construction costs as compared to the defered building the same station at a later date under traffic.
The construction of Ellen Grove now would enable a staged opening of the line to Springfield and at present effectively only requires the actual station construction to enable this to happen as the earthworks and bridge works are virtualy complete from Richlands to the Ellen Grove station site.
By bring Ellen Grove on line as soon as possible in a staged extension of the Springfiels line would serve Forest Lake as well as Ellen Grove and provide additional parking (another 250 to 300 spaces) to relieve Richlands which has already reached parking capacity most days, last Wednesday at 9.30am there were 6 empty car spaces at Richlands.

[Stillwater]

On a construction job, there is a cost associated with the contractor establishing a presence on site (site office, access roads, hire of plant and equipment, manpower etc) that can be spread across a large job.  Likewise there is a cost with pulling out of a site (rehabilitating site, plant removal etc).  To have a contractor go in and build the line, and not Ellen Grove station, pull out, then have the same or another contractor go in and build the station (incurring another set of establisment and decamp costs) doubles up on these costs.  Incorporating the Ellen Grove station in the Springfield line extension would allow for one set of contracts, one Environmental Impact Statement (EIS) co-consideration of the line in a station design rather than building the line, then realising you have to realign it because you did not take into consideration the co-location of the station and track on the one site etc

[O_128]

Dispute all you like Gazza.  It is clearly more affordable time wise to build greenfield and construction costs escalate on a brown field project around an operating railway. Darra being a good example.  I have spoken to a number of engineers and they confirm that basic premise.  You also need to cost in the closures.  Ellen Grove is not Richlands and a basic functional station at Ellen Grove would be just the thing, and could also be used for staged opening as well.  Richlands was an expensive station for a number of reasons.  Major earthworks, if you track back to the beginning of the thread you will note it was just light bush and paddocks. Also extensive car parks as well as the corridor extensions in preparation for the line to Ellen Gove and eventually Springfield.  In fact Richlands was not at the same standard of finish as Varsity Lakes as well, if it was it would have been even more expensive.

And the good news is there is a re-think going on with Ellen Grove.  Commonsense just might prevail yet.

Interesting things I have recently learned  is that there is alot of corridor past richlands ready for track laying, I doubt it would take more than 12 months to get to ellen grove.

The other thing is that due to the demographics of Richlands and in turn Darra it was decided against nice flashy stations like varsity due to graffiti so hard wearing and easy to clean surfaces were chosen.

The other is that to build a "basic station" at ellen grove would only be slightly less than a full blown station.

[Gazza]

Some stations in Victoria (4)  being built around operating railways are now to cost $220 million ($55 million each roughly), up from a 2006 estimate of around $60 million for three (one added later).  Clearly if the opportunity is there to build Ellen Grove now go for it.  These costs have tripled since 2006.  Ellen Grove is a no frills station by comparison.  The longer we wait the more expensive it will become though, and it is stupid not build greenfield if it can be.

Background http://www.transport.vic.gov.au/web23/home.nsf/headingpagesdisplay/public+transportrailway+stations

And http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/labor-in-transport-cost-blowout-20100818-12f4p.html

By that same notion, a station in Perth was built on a working line for $9 Million (Relocated a couple of hundred meters from the old one)
http://www.pta.wa.gov.au/Projects/CompletedProjects/VictoriaParkStation/tabid/78/Default.aspx
The Victorian ones are stupidly priced, and it has a lot to do with them over-engineering.

The issue is I doubt they would build a simple station since they just don't get built any more, plus a footbridge across to Ellen Grove needs to be factored in too.

[mufreight]

Some stations in Victoria (4)  being built around operating railways are now to cost $220 million ($55 million each roughly), up from a 2006 estimate of around $60 million for three (one added later).  Clearly if the opportunity is there to build Ellen Grove now go for it.  These costs have tripled since 2006.  Ellen Grove is a no frills station by comparison.  The longer we wait the more expensive it will become though, and it is stupid not build greenfield if it can be.

Background http://www.transport.vic.gov.au/web23/home.nsf/headingpagesdisplay/public+transportrailway+stations

And http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/labor-in-transport-cost-blowout-20100818-12f4p.html

By that same notion, a station in Perth was built on a working line for $9 Million (Relocated a couple of hundred meters from the old one)
http://www.pta.wa.gov.au/Projects/CompletedProjects/VictoriaParkStation/tabid/78/Default.aspx
The Victorian ones are stupidly priced, and it has a lot to do with them over-engineering.

The issue is I doubt they would build a simple station since they just don't get built any more, plus a footbridge across to Ellen Grove needs to be factored in too.

The Julie Road underpass removes the need for a footbridge to access the Ellen Grove station site and the over engineered stations that have been built recently are not a simple functional station which is what is required but rather an example of political grandstanding costing millions more than a simple functional design which would save funds to use in other areas.

[Gazza]

and the over engineered stations that have been built recently are not a simple functional station which is what is required but rather an example of political grandstanding costing millions more than a simple functional design which would save funds to use in other areas.

Problem is, we aren't in Perth, so we wont get simple functional stations. 

[#Metro]

By that same notion, a station in Perth was built on a working line for $9 Million (Relocated a couple of hundred meters from the old one)
http://www.pta.wa.gov.au/Projects/CompletedProjects/VictoriaParkStation/tabid/78/Default.aspx
The Victorian ones are stupidly priced, and it has a lot to do with them over-engineering.

The issue is I doubt they would build a simple station since they just don't get built any more, plus a footbridge across to Ellen Grove needs to be factored in too.

SCANDAL SCANDAL SCANDAL!!! It would cost 5 times this amount probably to do in Brisbane

[Golliwog]

By that same notion, a station in Perth was built on a working line for $9 Million (Relocated a couple of hundred meters from the old one)
http://www.pta.wa.gov.au/Projects/CompletedProjects/VictoriaParkStation/tabid/78/Default.aspx
The Victorian ones are stupidly priced, and it has a lot to do with them over-engineering.

The issue is I doubt they would build a simple station since they just don't get built any more, plus a footbridge across to Ellen Grove needs to be factored in too.

SCANDAL SCANDAL SCANDAL!!! It would cost 5 times this amount probably to do in Brisbane

Not really. If its just relocating an existing station a few 100m up the line, then all the services (electricity, signalling, water, ticketing, etc) are all there, you just need to put in the extention cable down the line.

[Gazza]

Not sure if serious. It was moved 230m.
Certainly with water you'd be better of just tapping in at the new location.

In any case, making new electrical grid/ticket network connections etc isn't going to make the cost shoot from $9 Mil to $50 Mil (as in Melbourne)
Grid connections are a minor cost anyway in the total construction cost of a building.