The Pedestrian Thread- Walking, Crossings etc.

[#Metro]

 

I'm trying to slim down the GCL taking into account Somebody's previous suggestions for speeding it up.
It never ceases to amaze me just how anti-public transport the road layouts are (turn bans which prevent buses going in direct routes),
a lack of decent and safe crossings on many roads. Some just have a refuge in the middle, no signs, no road markings, no crossing lines.

There are two very anti-pedestrian, anti-public transport cases right next to Prince Charles Hospital on the Northside. There are other cases outside rail stations where there is no obvious place to cross the road. There are no traffic lights (oh no, don't slow down the car!), there is no crossing, there is NOTHING!!! How are people supposed to change buses or cross the road to get to the stop on the other side in the suburbs if they are expected to cross very busy 4 lane roads with no supporting infrastructure!

Another case is along Riwaweena Rd, Sunnybank which has a great fast road but looks like there are no pedestrian connections from the estates behind the fence and also no way to cross the road safely either. It's a bit useless if you can get a bus to the city but on the way back home you are plonked on the wrong side of the road and have to cross it!

Every public transport user is also a pedestrian! 

[WTN]

I share your pain TT. Regularly crossing a very busy road can be a pain. It's quite sickening that our roads are often full of cars cars and cars while the footpath is almost empty.

On each morning I go to work, I have to cross a busy street to catch an express bus. It's frustrating when a wave of heavy traffic stops you from getting to an approaching bus. The sheer volume of traffic alone can be pedestrian unfriendly, especially in a suburban street.

Even worse is Logan Rd during peak hour (I go there if I miss the express). It's a 6 lane gauntlet. If you don't see enough speeding cars and massive trucks while crossing, you probably will by the time you get on a bus! Some signalised crossings don't feel safe because they leave you with little room to stand back from massive trucks, worse are small slip lane islands. Narrow footpaths and tiny refuge islands can be unsafe.

Other anti-pedestrian aspects I occasionally encounter: cul de sacs without pedestrian thoroughfares (fortunately discouraged), cars/trucks parked at bus stops (can be reported by bus drivers), trucks parked across footpaths, complete lack of footpaths, lights that take forever to change, busy roundabouts, streets littered with stinky rubbish bins (council can fine people for not putting them away).

[#Metro]

There are a few zebra crossings in the inner city. There's one on Logan Road down from the Buranda rail station there. Even these crossings can be unsafe because cars don't slow down! You have to wait for a break in the traffic before you can cross.

If there is one thing about I like about trams, is that they stop traffic, every stop has a crossing and they are everywhere.
For some reason, the city planners don't seem to think the same when it comes to bus, you STILL need to be able to cross roads!

[O_128]

Ive been waiting for this topic but please dont get me started on the toowong intersection it will involve alot of swearing as i waste at least 10 min waiting to cross the road

[Golliwog]

I feel much of these problems come from how things change over time. I'm not going to pretend to know the histroy of a certain intersection or road, because I don't but jsut think as overtime road use and travel patterns change. What was once a 2 lane road could become (over time) a 4-6 lane road (Waterworks Rd/Coro Drive anyone?). The same goes for intersections as each leg becomes more or less trafficed, or a new intersection is added, or the layout of an intersection is changed (Pickering St Round abourt at Alderley?). Things are quite easily overlooked such as pedestrians, and they are simply allowed for with a pedestrian crossing at the traffic lights, or whatever else.

I think the problem comes from the attitudes of the people building or upgrading the road. They have a limited budget and as a general goal that budget is to improve the road for vehicles. You don't add more lanes to allow for extra pedestrians, so they focus on how it can be best spent to benefit the motorist (buses are included here) and while they may try to put in benefits for the pedestrian, things that reduce the flow of the road and thus its capacity (pronounced pedestrian crossings) are counter to what the goal of the project is. They do have to provide these things but try to do so in ways that are most beneficial to general traffic, and also to keep the ammount of money spent on these things to a minimum. If gap theory (based on probability) says that there should be gaps that are large enough and frequent enough for a safety island to be used, why put in a set of lights/overpass or even just a zebra crossing? Similarly development changes with time, fact of life (The Great Western Shopping center at Keperra - used to be a quarry, opposite side of Settlement Rd from that is now a residentail area - used to be a drive in cinema. These have changed in the last 10 years). What is todays residential street can become a shopping strip which could eventually become something else. How are the roads original designers supposed to know what is going to be where in 20 years time? They do usually try to design for future uses but ultimatly they are restricted by the budget. There is a logic to how they do what they do. Perhaps not giving the best social outcomes, but a logic none the less.

[#Metro]

I don't blame them, it's certainly an explanation, but not a justification.
Pedestrians cannot be cut out of the picture. The crossing at Toowong is pretty bad. It is high
curb, there is no gradient from low to high. So anyone in a wheelchair is going to face a ~ 10cm
drop when crossing the road. Nobody uses the pedestrian tunnel, it is too horrible and confined
to use. Its difficult to see what the solution is.

In other cases there really is no excuse. The cases near the PCH could easily be solved by adding paint to the road and reflective signs.
These things are not expensive to do, their cost IMHO would pale into insignificance compared with the cost of adding a lane for cars
or whatever.

An engineer designing a street or road prioritizes the world in this way, no matter how they are instructed:

   1. Traffic speed
   2. Traffic volume
   3. Safety
   4. Cost

The rest of the world generally would prioritize things differently, as follows:

   1. Safety
   2. Cost
   3. Traffic volume
   4. Traffic speed

In other words, the engineer first assumes that all traffic must travel at speed. Given that speed, all roads and streets are then designed to handle a projected volume. Once those parameters are set, only then does an engineer look at mitigating for safety and, finally, how to reduce the overall cost (which at that point is nearly always ridiculously expensive).

http://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2010/11/22/confessions-of-a-recovering-engineer.html

[somebody]

(turn bans which prevent buses going in direct routes),

Just put up "Buses excepted" in these locations.  Unless there is a median strip preventing the turn.

Yes, the pedestrian is thought of as evil in Brisbane.  Notice how car drivers attempt to push in when the pedestrian has right of way?  It is disgraceful.

I also like the pedestrian crossing on Moggill Rd outside Myer at Indooroopilly.  Inbound and outbound are treated as separated crossings, so the pedestrian needs to wait for the lights to change twice!

[#Metro]

Often I find that there is a total turn ban or a concrete strip preventing turning traffic.
One of the ideas considered was to put 599 down Racecourse road. Unfortunately, there is a right turn ban from KSD into Racecourse road.
I can't imagine how people try to cross KSD. Maybe they don't.

Brisbane Airport DFO also is not connected to the rest of the road network properly. The gateway and gateway II split the suburb up and prevent cross-traffic. It isolates DFO and makes it impossible to serve with any through routes of any kind, the buses must terminate there. It is "not on the way".

[#Metro]

What is your worst crossings/roads/pedestrian links in Brisbane?
Nominate a few!

I'll start of with Buranda Station and the Bridge/Traffic lights there. People walk out of the station and flow everywhere across that 4 lane road.

[WTN]

Often I find that there is a total turn ban or a concrete strip preventing turning traffic.

Or peculiar street layouts (eg one way) that cause permanent diversions. The 202/208 inbound takes a detour to Logan Rd, Logan St then straight along Juliette St due to one way layouts. Outbound is straight along Cornwall St. Both streets are very busy in peak.

Try crossing parts of Mains Rd. Notable crossing gaps exist at stop outside of QSAC (away from the traffic lights), and beyond Pinelands Centro.

Kessels Rd is even worse. There are very few crossings near QSAC, outside the big stores (Clive Peeters etc), and relatively few crossings further east (beyond Logan Rd).

For the large number of houses and shops built up along these very busy roads, extra crossings are definitely warranted.

[FrequencyCrusader]

Mains Rd is a nightmare, but especially outside the park and ride. The number of times I've seen pedestrians trying to dash across to the pedestrian island (east to west) and dodge the buses, trucks and cars still doing 70  km/h. Think what you like about park n rides: they should still be safe to access!

I'd also nominate Ann St in the valley, right near the China town mall. The intersection at Kemp Pl prevents pedestrians from accessing Marshall St, so they either dangerously dash across the Ann St onramp to the StoryBr, jaywalk across Ann between signals, or walk back to Brunswick. It doesn't seem far back to Brunswick, but pedestrians (especially drunken ones) prefer the shortest path... and I believe they should have priority over everything else in the city.

Also near the Valley, the whole Wickham St/Queen St/Boundary St/Ann St area is a nightmare for pedestrians.

[#Metro]

I saw the most horrific event on Schonell Drive today. Person lying the road unresponsive, injured ambulance and police, horrible.  
There was a car or two as well. Might have been a pedestrian collision.

Add Schonell Drive, St Lucia to the list.
Seriously, we always hear about the road toll. Do we hear about the pedestrian toll?

When you are in a car, you have all the safety features of an airbag, crumple zones, the car itself
and all the treatments DTMR and BCC put on the roads.

When you are a pedestrian, you have nothing. You might not even have a safe place to cross.
Suburban arterials and main local roads need safe crossings. Sometimes this is not possible
at grade and a busway style overbridge is required.

I sincerely hope I do not have to see something like I saw today. It was horrible.

[johnnigh]

Brisbane's CBD Master Plan does have at its centre prioritising pedestrians, however, there is a certain resistance to implementation. Traffic engineers have long been taught to optimise motor traffic movement rather than movement of people whether in cars, buses or on foot. Thus a bus is worth a car rather than the car worth a 60th of a bus. Some improvements are in evidence and more will happen, but the Lord Mayor has admitted, by the phrasing of two letters he sent me some time ago, that this is mainly to improve the shopping. So don't expect your residential street to have a speed limit less than 50 placed on it.

Ped Xings are the particular bane of the engineers, because they are seen as creators of collisions between cars (front into back crashes). To have a crossing installed there has to be a specific 'warrant' that requires a very large number of peds crossing at that specific point, and a few fatalities can speed implementation but not reduce the warranted number of peds crossing. If the number of peds using the crossing is seen to fall below the warranted level the crossing can be removed. Sometimes they put in a ped refuge in a median area. Elderly pedestrians enjoy their stays  in these refuges

Control of the application of these regulations is by local councils for most roads and by state authorities for 'state roads' (not many in Brisbane CC itself). I was delighted to walk across many zebras in parts of Ashfield, Concord and Rockdale LGAs in Sydney, showing that an LGA can manipulate these warrants to be benefit of residents. Unfortunately, the BCC's traffic engineers are strong supporters of the motor car's right to pass at maximum speed on any street  .

[Mozz]

I often take note of the damage and destruction caused to those "pedestrian refuges" on roads around where I live. The steel metal forming the pedestrian refuge on Oxley road near the intersection of Ellen Street is quite often smashed flat and destroyed by out of control vehicles or large uninterested trucks. The pedestrian refuge on Curragundi Road at Jindalee outside the shops is in this state right now and has been smashed flat on both sides for a few weeks now, serving as an enduring monument of warning to pedestrians.   

[#Metro]

Ped Xings are the particular bane of the engineers, because they are seen as creators of collisions between cars (front into back crashes). To have a crossing installed there has to be a specific 'warrant' that requires a very large number of peds crossing at that specific point, and a few fatalities can speed implementation but not reduce the warranted number of peds crossing.

Wow, this has to be the most ridiculous requirement. This is just as bad as the "look nobody is catching public transport, so an improvement is not warranted", when actually the poor "rotten apple" level of service is so bad it is repulsing potential passengers away from it. Of course if an environment is anti-pedestrian few people are going to cross the road because it is extremely risky! You may as well drive!

Crossings need some form of speed hump or road markings on them. I don't trust even signalled crossings now, three times I was almost run down at a signal crossing when I had the green man. Three times! People just do not stop for anyone or anything anymore.

[#Metro]

The pedestrian refuge on Curragundi Road at Jindalee outside the shops is in this state right now and has been smashed flat on both sides for a few weeks now, serving as an enduring monument of warning to pedestrians.   

Do you have a photo of this? 

[Mozz]

Nah sorry, mate of mine lives in Yarrimbah street so went past it yesterday.

[#Metro]

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Curragundi+Road,+Jindalee,+Queensland,+Australia&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=45.822921,109.072266&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Curragundi+Rd,+Jindalee+Queensland+4074,+Australia&ll=-27.534989,152.936468&spn=0.011378,0.069609&t=h&z=15&layer=c&cbll=-27.535,152.936451&panoid=78cFfrvxtEwayANROEjMhA&cbp=11,133.43,,0,8.49



I don't really see what the fuss is with BCC regarding crossings vs refuges.
If they painted zebra lines along the road where people walk and put up crossing signs, you would turn a refuge into a good crossing - and only by using a can of paint and 2 signs.

:conf

[Golliwog]

TT, from my understanding pedestrians hit crossing roads are included in the road toll.

[#Metro]

Remember this?

http://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2010/11/22/confessions-of-a-recovering-engineer.html

There is now this:

[O_128]

^^^^^^

hahah this is so typical of the justification for road projects

[#Metro]

Kingsford Smith Drive perhaps???
http://www.brisbane.qld.gov.au/traffic-transport/plans-projects/transport-projects/KingsfordSmithDriveUpgrade/Option1/index.htm

[ozbob]

From the Brisbanetimes click here!

How and when - to push the button

How - and when - to push the button
Daniel Hurst
January 5, 2011 - 5:48AM

Ever tapped away impatiently on a traffic light pedestrian crossing button and felt the system wasn't listening? Most of the time, it probably isn't.

In fact, for the past four weeks the buttons at the new $500,000 crossing on Eagle Street have been effectively useless.

Brisbane City Council yesterday admitted the new traffic lights had been wrongly set to operate on a cycle, 24 hours a day, meaning traffic had to stop even when no one wanted to cross the road.

After tweaking the Eagle Street system, however, the council also revealed all CBD crossings operated on a continuous cycle during the day and only reverted to a button-trigger set-up late at night.

This is meant to allow the council to co-ordinate traffic flow, but also means pedestrian-cross buttons in the inner-city are redundant between 5.30am and 10.30pm. This system does not apply to the suburbs.

The issue came to light after cab drivers voiced irritation about having to stop for phantom walkers at the new Eagle Street crossing over the quiet holiday period.

The cycle was particularly noticeable at night time, when the lights repeatedly stopped vehicles for no reason.

"It's really frustrating," one cabbie, who declined to be named, said yesterday.

Asked about the disruptions caused to traffic by the Eagle Street system operating automatically around-the-clock, Brisbane City Council snapped into action.

Acting Mayor Graham Quirk said the council yesterday brought the traffic lights into line with other CBD crossings.

"The pedestrian crossing is automatic during the day, like all other CBD crossings to ensure a co-ordinated flow of traffic," Cr Quirk said in a statement.

"At night, CBD crossings operate on a touch button basis, but the new lights hadn't been set to do that until the Brisbane Times brought the matter to our attention."

The lights at the new Eagle Street pedestrian crossing, outside the Riverside Centre, were installed following suggestions about 6000 pedestrians a day were dodging vehicles as they crossed four lanes of traffic.

The lights have been operating since December 7.

Eagle Street newsagent Kristina Cowen, who lobbied for the new crossing, congratulated the council for responding to concerns.

She said while some pedestrians would always try to "bend the rules" and jay-walk across the road, she believed fewer people were now making a dash for it.

Ms Cowen also rejected concerns about disruptions to traffic flow caused by the new crossing.

"I think there'll be the initial problems that everyone will want to pick away at but I think overall it's a good result," she said.

"I think the [zebra] crossing on Queen Street [outside the General Post Office] has more problems in terms of build-up of traffic."

[johnnigh]

Note that Quirk thinks CBD traffic signals are to optimise the flow of cars, not people :conf

Perhaps a letter: Dear Clr Quirk,
While we are aware that you might not be the sharpest tool in the political shed, we hope the following is not beyond your comprehension: the CBD has many more pedestrians than motor vehicles. The CBD Master Plan suggests that flows of pedestrians should be optimised by signalised crossing phasing in order to ensure that time costs to people are minimised and therefore the CBD experience enjoyed by workers, shoppers and even tourists is a pleasant and fulfilling one. Your Lord Mayor is working to improve the pedestrian experience with investment in better pedestrian facilities - and I even suspect that you are aware of this!
Your comments in the Brisbane Times on 5 January tell us that the purpose of traffic signals is to optimise the flow of cars and not people. This conflicts with the Lord Mayor's goals for the CBD.
Could we suggest that you re-think your attitude to people and roads.
Yours etc,
:bi

[O_128]

Can we please have countdown timers at crossings so i know how long i have to wait

[WTN]

Can we please have countdown timers at crossings so i know how long i have to wait

I've long suspected lights operate on a cycle. Can we also have the timer drop to 10s or less when someone pushes the crossing button, so we don't have to wait forever? Oh wait, is it too hard to give up priority for cars?

[Golliwog]

...I thought everyone knew they operated on a cycle. And a countdown timer isn't always practical, depending on the programming of the phasing there isn't necessarily a set green time but a minimum and maximum number and when it changes depends on the traffic flows/pedestrian button presses.

[WTN]

I'd like to know whether the number of pedestrian button presses actually affect the cycles. The Brisbane Times article exposed a lot of useful information but doesn't say how cycle timings are affected. A countdown timer would show the changes.

Today I walked a slow walking elderly relative to the shops. On crossing a 5 lane road (Logan Rd), she crossed 1.5 lanes on the green light. The red light stopped flashing after crossing 3-4 lanes. On coming traffic went green before we finished. Not very friendly to seniors, wasn't it?

When we reached the intersection of Logan Rd and Old Cleveland Rd, there were 2 separate crossings to get across Old Cleveland Rd - one for each direction, plus a length of median strip in the middle. Crossing away from the hotel, we had to stop and wait twice (once at the hotel, once in the median). Even though there were breaks in traffic, the lights didn't change.  Crossing back to hotel was easier, but only if you could run the median strip to make the 2nd crossing, or else you have to wait again. Such a setup was counterintuitive and pedestrian unfriendly, so it was no wonder plenty of people jaywalked in the area.

[Golliwog]

If the button is connected then it only registers the one push. Repeatedly hitting the button will do nothing. As I understand it most traffic lights are not that complex in their programming. The more possibilities (different phases and their ordering) that need to be accounted for, the larger the traffic light box needs to be.

[Emmie]

There is a problem with pedestrians interrupting traffic flow in some locations - Sandgate Rd between Nundah and the East-West Arterial is an example. There are 3 (now 4 with the new roundabout) sets of lights far too close together. 2 sets are linked to the traffic flow, 1 is controlled by pedestrians, and I don't know about the new roundabout, except that it has definitely made traffic flow along Sandgate Rd much worse. (Thanks, Campbell)

Since the pedestrian-controlled lights are out of synch with the others, they cause constant waves of congestion.  This slows things down for everyone, including buses. I remember reading a study of bus routes along (I think) Parramatta Rd in Sydney. The introduction of a single set of pedestrian controlled lights, at the request of one shopping centre, increased trip duration on all buses using the road by 12 minutes because it interrupted traffic light synchronization.

So I've got some sympathy for the engineers on this. However, that pedestrian crossing is ALSO the main route linking Toombul Railway Station to Toombul Shopping Centre and bus station - a major interchange. I'd say the only solution is an overpass, which would not be cheap (but a lot cheaper than all the other infrastructure going in there at the moment).

[Golliwog]

Another idea would be to copy the Brits. All their pedestrian crossing traffic lights have a quite short red lights phase and then go to a flashing amber light for a little bit to basically say stop/give way to any pedestrians crossing the road, but if theres no one there you can drive through.

[WTN]

Wow, I didn't realise the situation with pedestrian crossings and traffic flows is a lot more complex than it looks. It seems hard to find a clear cut and easy balance between the two. Adjusting some of the cycles or making them "pedestrian aware" without severely affecting traffic isn't going to be easy. But I'm no expert in that. An overpass may be an excellent option in one scenario (ie Toombul), but not in others (eg on Old Cleveland Rd has not much room to link the future busway station to the shops).

[Jonno]

In a CBD or any commercial centre the priority should not be on traffic flow at all. They are the domain of the pedestrian!

[Golliwog]

In a CBD or any commercial centre the priority should not be on traffic flow at all. They are the domain of the pedestrian!

I would most certainly agree with you there, but there still does need to be vehicular access for deliveries as well as some through traffic, for which its impractical to go around.

[Jonno]

In a CBD or any commercial centre the priority should not be on traffic flow at all. They are the domain of the pedestrian!

I would most certainly agree with you there, but there still does need to be vehicular access for deliveries as well as some through traffic, for which its impractical to go around.

Big difference between not being a priority and restricting access.