Pensioner Seniors fare cap

[mufreight]

It would have been far more equatable and simpler if a daly cap of say $5 had been applied rather than the present after two journeys cap systen that currently exists which is in effect simply a con that is for most Seniors/Pensioners of little if any benefit as presently structured.

[Golliwog]

How do you figure? I think the daily cap for pensioners is a great option and more equitable than giving them a flat $5 fare no matter where they travel.

[mufreight]

How do you figure? I think the daily cap for pensioners is a great option and more equitable than giving them a flat $5 fare no matter where they travel.

We are not talking about a $5 flat fare, we are talking about a daily cap of $5 rather than free travel after two journeys which effectively for most pensioners has no relevance to their travel pattens and trips undertaken.

To gain advantadge of the existing proposed two journeys cap that would mean two gaps between travel of one hour or more so it works against any realistic fare cap unless the person travelling has two breaks of journey of longer than an hour each.

[Golliwog]

Ok, but I still don't think it should be a flat cap. It should vary depending on the zones you travel within.

[KS]

I think we are looking at it the wrong way, we should not be making the fare structure so that they get as much saving as possible but rather make it so they do not have to worry.

In the current system a pensioner who travels somewhere and stays less than an hour and travels again only pays the one fare, if they did multiple trips and did them all within the hour (and within the limit of trips) they may have only paid for 2 trips, but this requires them to actively ensure they only stay at the location for an hour (and because many buses and trains operate on 30 minute frequencies it is often less than an hour).

This proposal means that they do not have to worry about it, they will know that know matter how much they travel the maximum they will pay that day would be the cost of 2 journeys (if they complete everything in one journey then they only pay for that, if they do it in 2 journeys then there is no difference and if it is done in 3 then they have made a saving).

The problem with a daily cap is that it makes it alot cheaper for those who travel longer distances at the expense of those doing short trips (a person who does 1 journey valued at $15 pays only $5, while a person who does 3 short trips valued at $1.50 pays $4.50 and makes no saving), if you make it dependent on zones traveled then it is really no different to the current proposal. 

[mufreight]

The apparent lack of understanding espoused here of the typical travel pattens of senior and disability pensioners is astounding and the short sighted bean counter mentality prevails.
Perhaps you should be operating Translink and use your abilities to reorganise it from a failure to an absolute catastrophy.
Cheers   

[Golliwog]

Well for those of us not in the know, mufreight, could you please explain the typical travel patterns of seniors and disability pensioners?

[mufreight]

As they do not work other than in voluntary capacities their travel is predominately off peak, their trips frequently involve a change of mode and mostly would be short trips of less than three zones other than to attend medical commitments in which case their trips can be quite lengthy and involve multiple transfers and changes of mode.  In none of these cases is the after two journeys free travel of any advantage and as such another case of the calculated be seen to be doing something while effectively doing nothing approach of this Transport Minister and Translink.

[somebody]

As they do not work other than in voluntary capacities their travel is predominately off peak, their trips frequently involve a change of mode and mostly would be short trips of less than three zones other than to attend medical commitments in which case their trips can be quite lengthy and involve multiple transfers and changes of mode.  In none of these cases is the after two journeys free travel of any advantage and as such another case of the calculated be seen to be doing something while effectively doing nothing approach of this Transport Minister and Translink.

Well, they've pretty much given us what we were asking for: daily capping and a seniors discount.  Maybe we didn't ask for them to be combined.

I don't really have an issue with a Sydney style $2.50 daily seniors tickets being available here, but I would have an issue with such a ticket being valid in peak hour.

[Stillwater]

I have an active elder friend who is a pensioner.  Three times a week she makes this journey -- one zone trip to Meals on Wheels, starting about 10.30am-11am, where she volunteers for two to three hours.  She then travels into the next zone on two of those three days to do the shopping and some banking etc, taking about an 45mins or an hour or so; back home (2 zones), before peak hour kicks in.  At weekends she uses her car sparingly.  I am not sure if that is a 'typical' pensioner's travel pattern.

[Gazza]

And mostly would be short trips of less than three zones other than to attend medical commitments in which case their trips can be quite lengthy and involve multiple transfers and changes of mode.  In none of these cases is the after two journeys free travel of any advantage and as such another case of the calculated be seen to be doing something while effectively doing nothing

Ok then, so they typically do short trips of 3 zones or less.
3 zones is $1.84, times 2 = $3.68 ($3.14 if all done off peak)
A $5 cap would therefore also be doing nothing for the 'typical pensioner' in your example, and in fact only begins to work out cheaper for trips further than 6 zones (8 zones if all off peak).

Seniors get half price travel compared to everyone else to make things easier, and they now get the cap...why is a third type of discount needed?
I mean, isn't seniors travel pretty cheap as it is? Isn't that the reason its half price?

My personal viewpoint, but on here I notice the discussion seems to get very caught up in technicalities of how fares are calculated, but in reality do pax care? If in general Seniors can do their travel, and feel it is affordable, then the goal is met as far as I'm concerned.

Perhaps you should be operating Translink and use your abilities to reorganise it from a failure to an absolute catastrophy.

Mate, several times in the past few days you've thrown it around that members are supposedly government spin doctors, or we should go join em' or whatever just because they don't agree with you.
Here I was thinking RBoT was a place where you could just put your ideas on the table.
I don't see how it is at all fair, or productive, to be attacking people in this manner.

[KS]

Here I was thinking RBoT was a place where you could just put your ideas on the table.
I don't see how it is at all fair, or productive, to be attacking people in this manner.

I agree with you there. This is a discussion about the proposal and we should be allowed to express those views, if our views are based on incorrect assumptions then feel free to correct us but don't resort to personal attacks.  

I am not against the cap but from what was said it is not much better than the current proposal and is worse for those who do the trips as was described.

But if the goal is to make all pensioners (or at least most) better off is having a cap low (below $3) or if we want it zone dependent maybe doing a 1 trip cap (so all trips after the first one is free).

but if we price it too low then is it really worth having a ticketing system at all, if a lot of these trips are taken in off peak periods in local areas then there would be alot of space available and the marginal cost of carrying them would be fairly low. Also a lot of the traveling is for volunteer work and this would have a lot of social benefits (as well as economic to the government not having to provide those services given by seniors), it would be fair if they were provided with free travel.

[Gazza]

and is worse for those who do the trips as was described.

I'm curious, but can you give an example of how somebody would pay more with the daily cap compared to what they do now? (Putting the loss of daily paper tickets aside).

[KS]

and is worse for those who do the trips as was described.

I'm curious, but can you give an example of how somebody would pay more with the daily cap compared to what they do now? (Putting the loss of daily paper tickets aside).

It is compared to the current proposal by translink which makes trips after the first 2 free, see your previous post
3 zones is $1.84, times 2 = $3.68 ($3.14 if all done off peak)
A $5 cap would therefore also be doing nothing for the 'typical pensioner' in your example, and in fact only begins to work out cheaper for trips further than 6 zones (8 zones if all off peak).

Under the current proposal the $3.68 is all they would pay but under a $5 cap they would need to pay up to the $5, if the cap was lower ($3) then they would be better off but the problem arises again for those traveling 1 zone.

of course a daily cap would be better then the previous system of paying for every single journey

[mufreight]

The devil is in the fine print,
Translink states after two journeys not trips.
A journey could entail a number of transfers, as an example Brassall to Princess Alexandra Hospital which is Bus from Brassall to Ipswich, train from Ipswich and Bus from Corinda to PAH.
Although the journey is broken twice with delays of some 28 minutes at Ipswich due to the lack of cordination of bus and train services there and then a further delay of either another 25 or 55 minutes at Corinda, all become transfers rather than seperate trips or journeys so there is no benefit if a return trip is made on the day. were there to be an actual cash cap there would be an actual benefit.
For a person who makes a single one or two zone journey traveling to say voluntary work at meals on wheels the Translink two journeys cap is of no benefit anyway and it is improbable that they would be making other travel on that day.
Simply another exercise of saying something that sounds good but in effect doing nothing Government and Translink policy.
Perth gives Seniors free travel at weekends and it is understood that they are considering free travel for pensioners at all times.  Melbourne is also considering reduced charges for seniors travel off peak based on the Perth system.

[somebody]

I don't know why you are still complaining about this when they have given us what RailBoT was asking for.  Unless you didn't agree with RailBoT asking for a seniors concession and capping.  I don't remember you posting on that.  Every time they change something there are complaints about it, but then people complain that they aren't doing enough.  What is annoying is when the same people are in both camps.  Something I can keep in mind also.

Free after two trips would be a terrible system.  It would be better to make it free after one journey, but Seniors already have the 50% discount and now the capping after two journeys, isn't it enough?

[ozbob]

For the record, we and the other major groups actually lobbied hard for a flat fare limit for Seniors.   When it became clear this was not to be a number of options for capping was presented by us and others.  The two journey cap was a little unexpected, but the Government felt that as the go card data showed the Seniors as one of the two highest groups that actually did multiple daily journeys this was the way they wanted to proceed.  (The other group is tertiary students, and we continue to press for them as well).

Since the announcement I have put a lot of effort in educating Seniors what a two journey cap actually means.  Some wise folk I have talked to have worked it out and look forward to it.  There are others who would still prefer a flat fare. 

A couple of journeys in the morning, this then presents an opportunity for unrestricted travel throughout the rest of the day.  For example one could go by bus to the local shopping centre say 8.30am.  Finish shopping at 10am.  Travel home, put the shopping away, have a rest,  and then head off to the Gold Coast for the rest of the day at no fare cost.  Once folks understand the difference between a journey and a trip, they will know what suits them.

The journey capping was a significant concession from the Government who had up to that time resisted our and others efforts for a number of years.  And as such we responded favourably  --> http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=4752.msg37925#msg37925

[Gazza]

Every time they change something there are complaints about it, but then people complain that they aren't doing enough.  What is annoying is when the same people are in both camps.

I agree with Somebody. I bet if they did a flat fare for Pensioners, and it was only $2 there would still be people complaining that it's too expensive.

Question, but why do many persist with the notion that it is possible to provide a "desirable fare" for every single circumstance?

Eg...

all become transfers rather than seperate trips or journeys so there is no benefit if a return trip is made on the day.

and

For example one could go by bus to the local shopping centre say 8.30am.  Finish shopping at 10am.  Travel home, put the shopping away, have a rest,  and then head off to the Gold Coast for the rest of the day at no fare cost

So we have two hypothetical situations, one where somebody benefits from capping, and one who doesn't.
Does this mean we shouldn't have capping, since it doesn't benefit all possible trips?

This is just me, but I thought the rationale of capping was basically to provide an equivalent of 'daily tickets', and no other reason.

RBOT has called for capping to be extended to everyone, in line with London, Perth, Melbourne etc. But you could use the whole "sounds good but in effect doing nothing" argument here too since most people only do two journeys in a day anyway.

Of course, its not my point of view, but it sort of shows how petty you could be if you wanted to.

Pensioners fares don't need changing. They're half price compared to everyone else, so they're hardly breaking the bank.

[#Metro]

I think capping is not such a bad idea, Myki certainly allows it if you want it.

RBOT has called for capping to be extended to everyone, in line with London, Perth, Melbourne etc. But you could use the whole "sounds good but in effect doing nothing" argument here too since most people only do two journeys in a day anyway.

I think caution must be taken with statements like this- I understand this was just a hypothetical example. I'd like to see PT move to a more general purpose trip market where it can be used to go to the local shops after work or for recreational trips, visit friends etc. You're only going to get that when there is a) a fare structure that allows that (i.e. free transfers), which is by and large well served by what we have now and b) a proper Core Frequent Network in place.

I feel the need to say that (permanent) free public transport for everyone is not the way.
Certainly this has helped people who have had their car washed away, but I don't think it is the pancea it has been made out to be by some after my observations this week. I also feel that people should pay something for their trips unless there is an extenuating reason why they cannot- things like the flood, new years, easter, special event, homeless etc would fall into that category. Concessions can be given to those who need it.

[ozbob]

The 50% discount after 10 journeys in a weekly period is just another form of capping.  Some folks benefit significantly from that, but I don't see that as bad thing at all.  In fact, the more journeys made the better off the community is in reality.

Government was anxious do something for a group that is struggling a little more than most and was in line with the data they had.  So they decided on the two journey cap for the Seniors and pensioners. 

We will see how things go for the next few months.  It will take a while for the majority of folks to properly understand.  I constantly get emails etc. from folks still confused about how it works.

[somebody]

I constantly get emails etc. from folks still confused about how it works.

Which highlights another problem really.  Why aren't they going through Translink?

[#Metro]

Which highlights another problem really.  Why aren't they going through Translink?

Because we rock, and we don't use automaton scripts to answer questions. 

[ozbob]

Cough cough,  a correspondent contacted me after he was told by the TransLink call centre that after you do two trips on the bus everything is free.  He queried it and was told it was nothing to do with journeys just trips ...  lol

If it was trips, get on one station/bus stop, get off the next, get on get of the next, and then go free!   AAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH


I have also asked TL to put up a good description of what journey capping means/is on their site.  Hasn't happened ...

[ozbob]

Sent to all outlets:

20th January 2011

Greetings,

The free public transport on the TransLink network finishes Friday night.  This has been a great initiative and we thank the Government and TransLink.

New fares from Saturday 22nd January 2011.  It is important that folks obtain a go card and top it up before Saturday.

The only other ticketing option besides go card  for the majority from the 22nd January are single paper tickets which are very expensive relative to go card fares.

Full details on the TransLink web site --> http://www.translink.com.au/tickets-and-fares/fares/changes-to-fares-and-ticketing-in-2011

We have put together a 'Smart GO CARD User Guide' as well as an adjunct to the official resources --> http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=5149.0

It is very important that Pensioners/Seniors understand how the journey capping works.  There is some confusion on this, and we would like to see a clear explanation for users widely disseminated, e.g.

8. What does journey capping mean?

There is a new daily journey go card cap on fares for
Seniors, Pension Concession Card holders and
Repatriation Health Care Card (Gold Card) holders which
means after two journeys are made in one day all
additional journeys are free (on or after 17th January
2011). Remember a journey can be up to 4 trips on buses,
trains and ferries in a row over a maximum 5 hour period,
with no more than a 1 hour break between each trip. A trip
on a particular mode begins when you touch on, and ends
when you touch off. So, if more than 1 hour elapses after
your last touch off, the journey is counted as finished, and
your next touch on will initiate a new journey.
The free travel for those so entitled
only occurs after two completed
journeys are made in a particular
day and only for that day!
The first two journeys next day of
travel will be charged fares at the
normal rates.

From the Smart GO CARD User Guide page 8 http://backontrack.org/docs/go/smart_go_user_v1.pdf

Please also note:  If a person is unable to use a go card for valid reasons there is another option -  the TransLink Access Pass.  See --> http://www.translink.com.au/tickets-and-fares/other-tickets/special-access-passes/translink-access-pass

Best wishes
Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org

[Gazza]

A journey could entail a number of transfers, as an example Brassall to Princess Alexandra Hospital which is Bus from Brassall to Ipswich, train from Ipswich and Bus from Corinda to PAH.

Just thinking about that example, its a zone 7-2 trip, which is $2.65 in peak...So at most they would pay $5.30 for that day. This only saves 30c compared to a $5 cap,
Saving a few pensioners a mere 30c a day, to quote you, is "effectively doing nothing".

[somebody]

Hope I wasn't too harsh in my previous comments, but ozbob does have a point in avoiding hypercriticality.