Fare Cop

[ASN]

Hi all,

I recently requested some information from Translink on how they can charge what they do for train travel from the Sunshine Coast. Within the response I received was some comparitive information on 2 zone trips across different capital cities (despite the fact that I had told them I travel from Eumundi and so much more than 2 zones). I have completed some research and have shown the information I discovered below (extract from an email to a friend).

Queensland
Brisbane Central to Eumundi (2 hours) = $13.30 per journey or $133 for a normal 5 day working week
Remember this will be $15.30 with the upcoming ticket price rise

Victoria
Bendigo to Melbourne (2 hours) = $11.21 per journey or $112.10 for a 7 day pass
Note – Victoria continues to offer better-value passes such as a 28 day pass which reduces the cost to $9.31 per journey for a 5 day working week

Western Australia
Perth to Clarkson (30 minute trip as I couldn't find a 2 hour trip on their website) = $5.40 as a single trip however with the available discounts it can be as low as $4.05 per trip
I compared this to Roma Street to Petrie which is also around 30 minutes = $4.60 per trip

I accept that this is not a fair comparison as we cannot compare similar trips to the ones completed in other states

New South Wales
Morisset to Sydney Central (2 hours) = $7.80 for a single trip, $5.60 per trip when purchasing a weekly ticket and $5.13 per trip when purchasing a quarterly ticket

So if all of my information is correct, it will be close to 3 times more expensive to ride the Queensland Rail than it is to ride the NSW rail system!

[Fares_Fair]

G'Day ASN,

Your first post is a doozey !
Unfair cop I reckon !!   

Regards,
Fares_Fair.

[Gazza]

In NSW they drastically over-subsidise IMHO. You'd never get a trip of that distance that cheap in Europe or Japan. Means we're stuck in rut....No concept of cost recovery, so no money for capital improvements, and hence no better/faster services on these long distance lines.

[somebody]

no money for capital improvements, and hence no better/faster services on these long distance lines.

In NSW, it wouldn't matter how much money there was, there would be no faster services.  There is a complete lack of vision on this point.

[ButFli]

In NSW they drastically over-subsidise IMHO.

For the long distance trips, maybe. I am always astounded at how much a short trip costs in Sydney.

[Fares_Fair]

In NSW they drastically over-subsidise IMHO. You'd never get a trip of that distance that cheap in Europe or Japan. Means we're stuck in rut....No concept of cost recovery, so no money for capital improvements, and hence no better/faster services on these long distance lines.

Hello Gazza,

I must respectfully disagree with you there.
Government, good government is all about providing services to the community.
I don't know of any jurisdiction in the world where their public rail transport runs at a profit.

Government is about using our taxes to provide us, the taxpayer with services and this cost burden is made possible by sharing the load among many, so to speak. It's NOT about making money, it's NOT about user pays, it's about providing a service for all constituents.

I disagree with the asset sales for the same reason, they should have kept the money making ventures to offset the cost of the money loss ventures, in this case passenger services.
This whole user pays thing is a furphy IMHO.

At the end of the day - that will fail as there will be nothing left to sell for the next crisis.

Regards,
Fares_Fair.

[Gazza]

I don't know of any jurisdiction in the world where their public rail transport runs at a profit.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farebox_recovery_ratio
There are a few places. Even in cities where there isn't full recovery, most do better then us.

Lets not get confused between suburban services and intercity ones though. ButFli makes a good point though, the current pricing is a bit whack in places like Sydney...expensive if you want to use it in the city, but they're practically giving it away to long distance travellers, yet its within the city where congestion is the actual problem and usage is most important to promote.

Anyway, to illustrate what I said earlier.

Sydney - Newcastle, 168.1km, 2h 42' $7.80
Brisbane - Gympie North, 172.2km, 2h 49' $14.70
- - - -
Dresden - Berlin, 171km, 2h 04' $42 (32 EUR)
London - Birmingham, 173km, 1h 24' $44 (28 GBP)
Lyon - Dijon, 173km, 1h 46' $41 (31 EUR)
Zurich - Lausanne, 173km* 2h 08' $43 (41 CHF)

In other countries, they pay more, but you definitely get a better standard of service. I see transport more as a 'utility' like electricity, rather than a social thing (Like schools and hospitals).
Personally, I'd be much happier if Australian railways were run like those in Europe and Japan, since they're the ones that have got it right. The Aussie model of dirt cheap, but crap, sucks to be honest.

Osaka - Nagoya, 180km, 0h 47' $64 (5350 JPY) (though as low as $35 if locals trains, taking 2h 43' are used)

[#Metro]

Personally, I'd be much happier if Australian railways were run like those in Europe and Japan, since they're the ones that have got it right. The Aussie model of dirt cheap, but crap, sucks to be honest.

You nailed it!

There is no demand for rotten apples, even if they are FREE.

People will pay for things if they are good quality; PT should compete on quality, frequency and exclusive right of way/prioritisation.

[colinw]

Not sure about the rest of Europe, but in the UK it is reaching the point where price is being used to control & stifle demand.  Rather than running more services (which would require upgrades!) they just jack the price, hold demand to what can be handled, and the overflow goes on the motorway.

[somebody]

So, Sydney and Brisbane both lag even the dullard Americans, in most of the results on that page.

The other interesting point I observed from the CPTF was that places with poor off peak patronage also have poor cost recovery.

Personally, I'd be much happier if Australian railways were run like those in Europe and Japan, since they're the ones that have got it right. The Aussie model of dirt cheap, but crap, sucks to be honest.

I also agree with this.

[#Metro]

Really interesting that slide.
Look at Sydney vs Washington DC Metro

Sydney carries MORE passengers, but its farebox is well below that of the Washington DC metro. Why?

It seems the farebox ~ 50-60% seems reasonable. Nowhere near the 30% or so now...

[somebody]

Sydney carries MORE passengers, but its farebox is well below that of the Washington DC metro. Why?

I'd suggest a few factors:
Two man crew
Union shop attitude & workforce very un-interested in doing much actual work (average driver spends 35% IIRC of their time actually in the cab)
Some massively loss making services, such as the longer distance ones
Still high proportion of the patronage occurring in the peaks.  I think it's about 61%, which isn't as bad as QR.

[colinw]

It would be interesting to compare the peak vs. offpeak ratios for the half hourly bits of the CityTrain network, vs. Corinda to the city or BUZ routes.

I bet the offpeak patronage is MUCH better on those services that provide more frequent offpeak service.

[somebody]

I bet the offpeak patronage is MUCH better on those services that provide more frequent offpeak service.

We already know that.  Recently, the 412 BUZification.  Other examples can be found in the thredbo/Warren/BUZ presentation.