Skip-Stop operation/ Speeding up the Beenleigh Line

[#Metro]

Found something interesting: Skip stop operation.

Sometimes it is said that Brisbane's train stations are positioned too closely, routes are windy and that this makes the service
slow and uncompetitive with bus. Could an all day skip-stop operation on the "all stations" bits be a potential solution?
I'm thinking on the Beenleigh line? Although this would be controversial IMHO.

Skip-stop is a way of speeding up trains on lines by stopping all trains only at major stations. For the minor stations the service is alternated. It speeds up services without (in general- GC trains on Beenleigh line might get in the way) having to add new infrastructure and does not reduce line capacity. It's a bit out there, but used on rail systems overseas.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skip-stop

Example

Major station <---A, B
minor    <--- A
minor <--- B
minor    <----A
minor <--- B
Major station <--- A, B
minor    <--- A
minor <--- B
minor    <--- A
minor <--- B
Major station <--- A, B

[ozbob]

Melbourne has implemented variations of this.

[somebody]

Sydney has it too, even on quad track corridors off peak.

Not a big fan.  There is a need to improve frequency so all stations can get a 15 minute service.  Skip stops make sense when expresses would run down the all stopper, so perhaps if the details can be sorted out for a certain line.

[mufreight]

Less than practical here with the distances travelled outside the CBD and the pathetic service frequencies that commuters currently endure, obviously more thought is needed to devise a system that provides a better level of service for all rather than solutions that will disadvantage many and effectively deter public transport usage.
Relative to comparisons with Sydney compare their service frequencies and the availability of alternative parallel bus services.

[#Metro]

I think it would be worth looking at. Isn't it possible to both increase the frequency and increase the speed using skip stop operation?
It must be torture for Beenleigh line passengers to endure stopping at 22 stations spaced about 1km apart on the Beenleigh line?

[ozbob]

With the mindset that the authorities have at the moment with respect to addressing frequency, to routinely break up stopping services will just worsen the travel opportunities, unless there is a line overlap. Have a look at the new Frankston timetable for Melbourne  http://destinationbetter.metrotrains.com.au/timetable/Frankston-StonyPoint.pdf  10 minutes off peak (weekday), better than most of our peak timetables.

Has very consistent patterns. Off peak the Frankston line trains are all stoppers.  The trains running express Caulfield - South Yarra are Dandenong/Pakenham line trains.  Variations of this can work here.

( I know it is a bit depressing looking at customer focussed timetables, but be strong ...   )

The other thing about high frequency timetables is like a BUZ most punters don't use a timetable at all.  Just turn up and go.  I will be going down to Frankston next trip to Melbourne.  Think I will go off peak!   

[somebody]

Yes, we don't need a skip stop at present.

We do need decent express patterns in the peaks though.

[#Metro]

How is the Beenleigh line's 22 stations, many of those stations closely spaced going to recieve a faster service?
No change to speeds? Many buses are faster than the train.

3 tier timetable?

[somebody]

How is the Beenleigh line's 22 stations, many of those stations closely spaced going to recieve a faster service?
No change to speeds?

Off peak in 2011?  I'm afraid so.  Due to the crapulent Merivale bridge alignment and awful CBD location of Central, it is unsurprising that buses provide a more convenient service to many.

I support proper express patterns in peak though.  Current patterns are reasonable on this line except for the 8:29am train ex-Beenleigh actually, they just need to be run at a consistent frequency.

CRR1 will help things somewhat if done right.

[BrizCommuter]

Skip-stop operations are a rare and dying breed, and most metro systems that have operated them in the past have gone back to all stops services.

Why?

-They increase waiting times compared to an all stops service, as only 50% of trains stop at an A or B station.
-It considerably increases journey times for those travelling from an A to B stop (or B to A, e.g. school traffic).
-There is no increase in maximum line capacity compared to an all stops services.
-The benefits from a decrease in journey time is not outweighed by the cons of the above.

NYC subway (MTA) eliminated the 1/9 skip stop a few years ago, and almost eliminated the J/Z skip stop last year due to budget constraints. The Chicago L got rid of skip stops in 1990s, and saw ridership increase by 34-50% at former A or B stations due to the increase in frequency.

[#Metro]

Skip-stop operations are a rare and dying breed, and most metro systems that have operated them in the past have gone back to all stops services.

Yes, when I first read of it, I thought, "what, why would you do that, that's crazy!"

But thinking about it, if those stops in between are minor stops, and the services are reasonably frequent already (this may not be true in Brisbane!!!) then its a tradeoff of whether you make every single person on the train stop at every single station all the way to the CBD. Even at stations which has nobody at them most of the time like Bethania, Holmview and Edens Landing.

-They increase waiting times compared to an all stops service, as only 50% of trains stop at an A or B station.

It does, but this has to be balanced against the fact that once on the service, everyone on the train (not just the few at the platforms) will have to stop at every single station. Skip stop gives the benefit of wider station spacings, when you don't have wider station spacings.

Think about the cityglider example or perth trains- they have wide stops, beenleigh line doesn't- we can't close stations so the other alternative is not to stop at some stations in a consistent pattern.

-It considerably increases journey times for those travelling from an A to B stop (or B to A, e.g. school traffic).

It might, but again saves time for everyone else on the train. Why should everyone be inconvenienced so that 1 person can travel from Holmview to Bethania?

-There is no increase in maximum line capacity compared to an all stops services.

There is no increase-true, but there is no decrease either. All other methods of speeding services up decrease line capacity.

-The benefits from a decrease in journey time is not outweighed by the cons of the above

Not necessarily. It depends on the number of people and the alternatives available. Remember, there are more people at the major stations and on the train then there will be at the platform on many of these stations.

It also has to be remembered that Rail is operating in competition with the car. Services must be fast over all (waiting time at platform plus in vehicle time) to be competitive against the Logan Motorway, Ipswich Road etc. Services must be fast too.

The waiting time issue can be fixed by increasing the frequency. An alternative would be to split the Beenleigh line into two and operate them as a 2 tier service. Maybe one to Kuraby and a more express service from Kuraby onwards.

[#Metro]

Just to clarify: I don't really care how its done, but would just like faster services for that line and perhaps Cleveland as well. Maybe UrbanLink will fix this to some degree.

Speed is important. PT competes against the car. People who drive cars can't be lured with a frequent service if it is also too slow.

[somebody]

The Chicago L got rid of skip stops in 1990s, and saw ridership increase by 34-50% at former A or B stations due to the increase in frequency.

I've read this stat as well.  Seems to be an irrelevant stat, unless you also include the effect on total patronage.  Probably AB stations saw their patronage drop or not rise in line with trend patronage growth for the system.  Also, by definition, the increase at the A or B stations is coming off a low base.

[mufreight]

Definitely relevant, the benefits of the improved frequency and the convenience of being able to commute to a station that would otherwise be on the alternate stopping pattern more than outweigh the average slower journey times.

[somebody]

Definitely relevant, the benefits of the improved frequency and the convenience of being able to commute to a station that would otherwise be on the alternate stopping pattern more than outweigh the average slower journey times.

I would think that is far less important than the lower frequency at the so called A & B stations.

[Arnz]

Gawler railway line in Adelaide has the skip-stop operation.

In addition, it's the only line on the Adelaide rail network where selected stations has 15 min off-peak frequencies (other stations have either 30 mins or worse off-peak).   Brisbane ties with Adelaide when it comes to off-peak service.

The Gawler skip-stop service at selected stations is the equivalent of the Corinda 15 minute off-peak service in Brisbane.

[mufreight]

Definitely relevant, the benefits of the improved frequency and the convenience of being able to commute to a station that would otherwise be on the alternate stopping pattern more than outweigh the average slower journey times.

I would think that is far less important than the lower frequency at the so called A & B stations.

Obviously you have had little practical experience in the operation of public transport other than as a passenger the realities of operation of private public transport are considerably different and what might work with a bus based operation that has a high operating frequency is less effective with rail where the frequency relative to passenger numbers per unit operated is lower.

[somebody]

So you know best then.

[somebody]

Definitely relevant,

Perhaps I can clarify what I was getting at then.  If the A & B stations combined only have 10% of the patronage, increasing that by 50% is only a 5% patronage increase.  If the AB stations suddenly drop by 6% due to the slower trip then you have gone backwards.  I'm guessing that the A & B stations only had a 30 minute frequency, as I can't see that sort of sensitivity by doubling a better frequency.

[#Metro]

The problem is: Beenleigh line is too slow.

Possible solutions:
* Skip-Stop
* 2 tier 'zone' operation (using CRR this would work nicely, but after Yeerongpilly it will be all stations slow again)
* Do nothing
* Shut down intermediate stations (impossible to do!!!)
* Something else?

I don't really care what the solution is, so long as it is not #3 or #4 and speeds services up.

[somebody]

The problem is: Beenleigh line is too slow.

Possible solutions:
* Skip-Stop
* 2 tier 'zone' operation (using CRR this would work nicely, but after Yeerongpilly it will be all stations slow again)
* Do nothing
* Shut down intermediate stations (impossible to do!!!)
* Something else?

I don't really care what the solution is, so long as it is not #3 or #4 and speeds services up.

I understand what you are trying to do here, but the need to improve the frequency in the off peak is far more pressing.  I can agree with greater express operation in the peaks, but that is all.  There is a far more immediate need to have a 15 minute frequency to Manly/Kuraby/Caboolture/Ipswich/Shorncliffe/Ferny Grove than off peak expresses on the Beenleigh or Cleveland lines.

[#Metro]

I understand what you are trying to do here, but the need to improve the frequency in the off peak is far more pressing.  I can agree with greater express operation in the peaks, but that is all.  There is a far more immediate need to have a 15 minute frequency to Manly/Kuraby/Caboolture/Ipswich/Shorncliffe/Ferny Grove than off peak expresses on the Beenleigh or Cleveland lines.

I think the issue is being dodged and deffered here. This problem should be nailed.
Yes, frequency is a problem, but so is the speed. I don't have info on how the CRR will speed things up, or whether that will be significant.

A horse and cart coming at high frequency still isn't good IMHO.

[somebody]

I don't have info on how the CRR will speed things up, or whether that will be significant.

If it doesn't, then they have really botched it.  The current line needs to go past the city at low speed, then loop back down.  12 minutes for a 3-4km as the crow flies trip?  That's awful.  And so is the CBD location of Central.

[#Metro]

If it doesn't, then they have really botched it.  The current line needs to go past the city at low speed, then loop back down.  12 minutes for a 3-4km as the crow flies trip?  That's awful.  And so is the CBD location of Central.

You know, nothing surprises me any more!
'Claytons' Express trains on the Ipswich line that rush past 11 stations and ... save just 6 minutes!!!

[ozbob]

Mrs Ozbob travelled home on the 4.28pm Express to Darra today.  She said it was very fast and a new train with red on the front (must have been SMU 280) and took 13 minutes.  Some things are best not challenged 

[somebody]

Mrs Ozbob travelled home on the 4.28pm Express to Darra today.  She said it was very fast and a new train with red on the front (must have been SMU 280) and took 13 minutes.  Some things are best not challenged 

16km in 13mins?  Nothing special.  However if it still took 6 mins to Milton, that's 117km/h for the bit after that.  It is possible if it was running late out of Central and so didn't have to dwell at Roma St or run slow to Milton.

But as you say, it may be best not challenged.

[ozbob]

This jogged my mind --> http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=3292.0

I documented a 10 minute run Corinda to Roma St that day ... so 13 minutes is possible Roma St to Darra as you say ...  maybe it did? 

[somebody]

I think it just highlights the need to trim fat from the express trains' times.

[somebody]

Further to this, checking the timetable reveals that there are two trains with run express between Roma St & Darra.  One takes 18 mins and arrives at Roma St at 7:50am, one departs Roma St 5:23pm and takes 20 minutes.  15.2km is the trip.

Average speed is 50.7km/h for the 7:50am arrival and 45.6km/h for the 5:23pm departure.  One of these speeds is lower than what I think is the lowest board encountered for the trip.  There is no excuse for this, and it needs to change.

I thought and I still think that the 60km/h Redfern-Parramatta (21km) non stop trip by CityRail was disgraceful. (that speed is pre-slow timetable, it's now about 55km/h for some trips.)  These Darra express trips are actually worse, and I do not think that the narrow gauge and slightly shorter journey explain it.

[colinw]

This jogged my mind --> http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=3292.0

I documented a 10 minute run Corinda to Roma St that day ... so 13 minutes is possible Roma St to Darra as you say ...  maybe it did?  

Back around 2000 when I was working in the CBD, I had the privilege of riding a train that ran express to Kuraby after some kind of incident has messed up the system in early afternoon peak.  I can't remember exactly what had happened, but the end result for Beenleigh line was that they ran a couple of trains super-express to Kuraby then all to Beenleigh in the afternoon peak.  I remember being impressed that I got home to Kuraby in under 25 minutes from Central, and thinking "if only we had the track capacity & vision to run this kind of pattern fulltime".  20 something minutes for 22km from Roma St isn't that great, but still a darn sight better than any of the so-called expresses on the Beenleigh line in peak can do.

[Cam]

Further to this, checking the timetable reveals that there are two trains with run express between Roma St & Darra.  One takes 18 mins and arrives at Roma St at 7:50am, one departs Roma St 5:23pm and takes 20 minutes.  15.2km is the trip.

Average speed is 50.7km/h for the 7:50am arrival and 45.6km/h for the 5:23pm departure.  One of these speeds is lower than what I think is the lowest board encountered for the trip.  There is no excuse for this, and it needs to change.

I thought and I still think that the 60km/h Redfern-Parramatta (21km) non stop trip by CityRail was disgraceful. (that speed is pre-slow timetable, it's now about 55km/h for some trips.)  These Darra express trips are actually worse, and I do not think that the narrow gauge and slightly shorter journey explain it.

The morning express is usually running late leaving Darra so the fat in the timetable allows it to catch up.

The afternoon express usually waits for several minutes at Darra because of the fat in the timetable. Even though it skips Wacol, Gailes & Goodna, it is timetabled to take 11 minutes between Darra & Redbank - the same as the all stations service in front of it. Why bother skipping stations if no time is made up? Again it usually waits at Redbank for longer than necessary because of the fat in the timetable.

What about the 4.28pm Claytons Express from Central that skips 9 stations but is timetabled to take 1 minute longer to Ipswich than the surrounding all stations services?

[#Metro]

Looking back, maybe it was unhelpful to call this thread 'Skip-stop'.
I don't really mind so much as how the beenleigh line is sped up, but care most that it IS sped up.

Running express to Kuraby or Coopers Plains and then all stations might be one possibility.
An all stopper could fill in the gap between Roma Street and Kuraby/Coopers Plains
This would be a 2 tier Beenleigh service.

[colinw]

Here's a Beenleigh Line oddity.

Last Friday, my wife caught the train in to South Brisbane to go to some event with friends.

She caught the 8:54 AM train from Kuraby, express from Kuraby to South Bank, then all to Bowen Hills.

This train is timetabled from Beenleigh at 8:29 AM, all to Kuraby at 8:54 AM, then express to South Bank at 9:19 AM and South Brisbane at 9:21 AM.

Well - to her great surprise it ran like a scalded cat all the way in from Kuraby, and she arrived at South Brisbane fully 8 minutes early at 9:13 AM.  I know this timing is accurate because she was so surprised that she rang me to say what had happened.  She was having a coffee with friends at South Brisbane by 9:20, before the train was even supposed to be there!

I wonder why this service ran so early, and if it had an extended dwell somewhere in the CBD or just terminated early at Bowen Hills.

It also shows what could be done with a two tier service and true express running.  I know the timing is repeatable, because I once had a train run express to Kuraby (after service disruptions), taking a similar amount of time.

Her comment to me - "If the train was always this fast I'd use it more often." ...

cheers,
Colin

[O_128]

the same thing happened to me on a Cleveland express service last Wednesday afternoon. The train left central at 5:25 and arrived at manly at 5:53 a massive time saving. The train was obviously running 6 mins late when it arrived at central but it really shows how much time is wasted.

[somebody]

This is a point I have been trying to get across to people, and particularly the part about if you sped it up, more people would use it.  I'm more thinking about the Ippy, of course, but it applies on all other lines.  However, there doesn't seem much interest in even reducing timetabled dwells.

The particular service you are referring to is quite strange.  It dwells for 4 minutes at Kuraby to let a slower service go through.  I also don't understand why the best express in the line's timetable isn't useful for most peak commuters?

Kuraby-South Bank: 19km.   Average timetabled speed: 45.6km/h.  Speed on this occasion (assuming still 2 minutes Sth Bank-Sth Brisbane): 67km/h.
Speed of Gold Coast trains Beenleigh-South Bank, non stop: 61km/h.

I feel there is fat in the timetable for the Gold Coast trains.  Trinder Park and vicinity is relatively slow AIUI, but it still should be faster than that.

the same thing happened to me on a Cleveland express service last Wednesday afternoon. The train left central at 5:25 and arrived at manly at 5:53 a massive time saving. The train was obviously running 6 mins late when it arrived at central but it really shows how much time is wasted.

51.6km/h.  Although that one needs to make stops as far as Park Rd, at least.  Standard speed is: 42.5km/h.