Line pairings - poll added

[somebody]

Seems to me that the line pairings need to change.  It would not be appropriate to have 2tph Bowen Hills-Manly, so the Cleveland line needs to attach somewhere else.  Equally, 2tph Shorncliffe-Manly means no improvement on the Shorncliffe line, which is also not appropriate.

The Cleveland line needs to attach to Ferny Grove IMO, with 4tph Manly-Ferny Grove, with 2tph extending to Cleveland.  That needs to be done anyway so that Beenleigh line trains can use the CRR1 tunnel.  This also makes Beenleigh-Airport trains logical, which makes far more sense to me than GC-Airport.

[Golliwog]

What would you then do with the Shorncliffe line? Pair it with the inner part of the Beenleigh line that would now be unserviced? Could terminate at Corinda?

What about GC line? I'm assuming you're aiming to keep that at 2tph? That would probably be a match for the Doomben line?

I'm assuming Ipswich/Richlands would be paired with Sunshine Coast/Petrie(Kippa Ring?)/Caboolture?

[somebody]

What would you then do with the Shorncliffe line? Pair it with the inner part of the Beenleigh line that would now be unserviced? Could terminate at Corinda?

What about GC line? I'm assuming you're aiming to keep that at 2tph? That would probably be a match for the Doomben line?

I'm assuming Ipswich/Richlands would be paired with Sunshine Coast/Petrie(Kippa Ring?)/Caboolture?

One of my other threads has been 4tph Ipswich-Caboolture express + 4tph Shorncliffe-Richlands, which received widespread support, although qualified by some.

Yes, GC-Doomben is a logical possibility.  There is also GC-Nambour however that is an exceedingly long route with some conflicting moves thrown in for fun.  I don't see the point in upping the GC line's frequency, except for making the hourly bits, half hourly.  1tph of each is something which could be looked at.

[somebody]

And what do you mean about the inner Beenleigh line being unserviced?  Are you thinking post-CRR1?  Come that day, I see a need for a Darra-CBD via Sth Brisbane 4tph service.  The idea of keeping some or all of the Beenleigh Line trains on the Merivale bridge is poor, and will ensure the continued underperformance of that line.

[ozbob]

The Cleveland line needs to attach to Ferny Grove IMO, with 4tph Manly-Ferny Grove, with 2tph extending to Cleveland.

Agree with that.  Perfect pair.  Who knows what might happen ...

CAB - IPS

Richlands - Shorncliffe?

Beenleigh - Airport/Doomben?

Sunshine Coast

Gold Coast - Airport

[ozbob]

And for the sentimentalists on the Ippy, the 4.09pm Redbank flyer ex Central (which originates from BNE) and is usually an IMU is obviously on borrowed time ...

[somebody]

The Cleveland line needs to attach to Ferny Grove IMO, with 4tph Manly-Ferny Grove, with 2tph extending to Cleveland.

Agree with that.  Perfect pair.  Who knows what might happen ...

CAB - IPS

Richlands - Shorncliffe?

Beenleigh - Airport/Doomben?

Sunshine Coast

Gold Coast - Airport

Can't have Beenleigh-Airport + Gold Coast-airport without having a substantial stagger in the timetable - it wouldn't be worth it.  The Gold Coast needs to connect somewhere else.

[Golliwog]

Well seeing as according to CSEQ2031 the GC line is eventually to be paired with Nambour/North Coast, perhaps send it up that way somewhere. Petrie/MBRL maybe? I don't know much about the workings on the northern line.

[somebody]

Well seeing as according to CSEQ2031 the GC line is eventually to be paired with Nambour/North Coast, perhaps send it up that way somewhere. Petrie/MBRL maybe? I don't know much about the workings on the northern line.

In theory GC-Nambour is a good idea, it means that the IMUs are serving the Sunshine Coast.  Reliability on the Sunshine Coast makes it not an option in my view.

[Golliwog]

Yeah, I think to make it reliable you would really need at least 2 tracks to Nambour, if not a 3rd track for freight.

[mufreight]

Sunshine Coast (Nambour) line frequency and reliability could be greatly improved by the construction of three long bi-directional passing lanes between Beerburrum and Nambour with full duplication for bi-directional operation on both tracks removing the immediate need for a third track for possibly another 30 years although the addition of some passing lanes of a third track would in time enable the operation of express and all stations passenger services and freight services without need for curfews for freight services.

[Golliwog]

Well what I'm hoping, is that once QR National is sold off (my understanding form the other thread on the asset sales being that QR Passenger (or whatever its called) retains ownership of the track here) that the passenger trains are given priority over freight, which would make this a bottleneck area for QR National, and perhaps they would help fund some of the upgrades to this section of track, not just the government.

[somebody]

Well what I'm hoping, is that once QR National is sold off (my understanding form the other thread on the asset sales being that QR Passenger (or whatever its called) retains ownership of the track here) that the passenger trains are given priority over freight, which would make this a bottleneck area for QR National, and perhaps they would help fund some of the upgrades to this section of track, not just the government.

My understanding is that passenger already has priority over freight, and I think absolute priority as is the situation in NSW (terms of the NSW-ARTC lease), and I think it's also absolute priority on the Nullabour.  mufreight will probably know about QLD.

So it is completely illogical to say "can't run more pax services, it would make it too hard for freight!".

[Arnz]

2031 has the CAMCOS corridor to Caloundra at the most.  So technically the Sunshine Coast region has "two" railway lines by that period (if constructed), the CAMCOS alignment and the existing alignment on the North Coast main line.

I'd probably predict Beerwah-Nambour/Gympie North would probably be a shuttle for the most part, connecting to Sunshine Coast and Brisbane/Gold Coast services at Beerwah.

[somebody]

I'd probably predict Beerwah-Nambour/Gympie North would probably be a shuttle for the most part, connecting to Sunshine Coast and Brisbane/Gold Coast services at Beerwah.

That would be logical actually.  But the shuttle should extend to Caboolture with interchange there.  The Coast trains then wouldn't need to serve Elimbah, Beerburrum or Glass House Mountains.

[somebody]

Back to topic, extending my mocked up timetable from another thread shows that Ferny Grove-Cleveland doesn't quite work on current timings.

Ferny Grove depart	:44	:59	:14	:29
Keperra	:48	:03	:18	:33
Central arr	:15	:30	:45	:00
Central depart	:18	:33	:48	:03
Manly	:01	:16	:31	:46
Cleveland arr	:20		:50
Cleveland depart	:52		:22
Manly	:13	:28	:43	:58
Central arr	:56	:11	:26	:41
Central depart	:59	:14	:29	:44
Keperra	:25	:40	:55	:10
Ferny Grove arrive	:30	:45	:00	:15

Problem is that a train needs to depart Ferny Grove in the single track 1 minute before one arrives.  One possible solution to this is to remove 1 minute from the core dwells in both directions (i.e. instead of having a 2 minute dwell at Central and a 1 minute dwell at Roma St or a 3 minute dwell at Central, just have a 2 minute dwell at Central) and have the train arrive at Ferny Grove 1 minute earlier and depart 1 minute later.  The reliability of this timetable could be low.  Recovery time is largely at Manly, or based on holding a late running outbound train at Wellington Point or Keperra to allow an inbound train to leave on time.  Is this a good idea?

EDIT: clarity

[Golliwog]

Trains on the FG line currently usually wait at Keperra for the inbound train to pass, usually for a minute or two, but I've never been bothered neough to work out if it was because the outbound train was running early or the inbound train was late, although I would expect it to be the former as I usually catch trains in the off-peak when the train has a long dwell at FG which would allow it to make up this time.

[somebody]

I expect that the dwell is timetabled, and a hangover from the days when Mitchelton-Keperra had a single track.  The long dwell at Ferny Grove was necessary in those days to cross at Keperra.  It was tight to do M-FG-M with a dwell at FG in 30 minutes.

[Golliwog]

True. Well would removing that dwell help in any way? Wouldn't that allow the outbound train to arrive at FG that one minute earlier? Although I would think you would want to reduce the dwell in the CBD as well to make sure it would make it there.

[somebody]

True. Well would removing that dwell help in any way? Wouldn't that allow the outbound train to arrive at FG that one minute earlier? Although I would think you would want to reduce the dwell in the CBD as well to make sure it would make it there.

Yes.  However, I would say remove that dwell AND reduce the CBD dwell.  That gives you a 2 minute buffer at Ferny Grove, same as at Cleveland.  Reliability would still likely be the worst of all lines.

[Golliwog]

I don't think the reliability would be that bad. You still have decent dwells at each end, and in all likelyhood you wouldn't be able to instigate a timetable change overnight so I would think by the time the timetable was changed the duplication Keperra-FG would be almost done.

Also, have a look at the hour before 7am on the current timetable. They manage 15minute frequency there and they only use one platform at Ferny Grove. And the 7.06am express service while it leaves 21 minutes after the previous service could leave earlier, part of the dwell I believe is because it runs express. Although with the outbound trains every second one runs out as an out of service train.

[somebody]

Also, have a look at the hour before 7am on the current timetable. They manage 15minute frequency there and they only use one platform at Ferny Grove.

That would only be achievable if the 8 minute dwell requirement for crew breaks was overcome in other ways.  I don't see much advantage to crew swaps in the off peak.  Perhaps in peak as it allows better rolling stock utilisation, but I do not think QR would like that idea.

As for the dwells, it is really only 2 minutes of recovery time at Ferny Grove & Cleveland.  4 minutes at Manly, and 2 minutes at Central.  Obviously, if the Cleveland train is delayed by more than about 4 minutes you would have to do the current thing of holding the outbound train at Wellington Point and making a cross there.  You can use similar rules at Ferny Grove/Keperra.

I would think that even if the reliability is impaired, it still should be done.  However, I don't think I worry as much about reliability as most people.