Superbuses?

[ozbob]

From a post at ATDB which has highlighted a call for a consultancy by the TTA.

Superbuses  "The objective of this project is to evaluate the various Superbuses over the life of the project (2010 to 2012) and develop a robust and defensible evaluation of high capacity bus fleet for South East Queensland (the project area)."

Where can they run?

(I suspect a super bus is a bi-artic?)

[ozbob]

Superbuses on busways, feed by shuttles seems to be the next stage.  Already capacity constraints, these changes will be needed to maintain services.  Great shame that BrizTram was not taken up ...

[#Metro]

I agree with Ms Bocabella. However, the bus proposal seemed to have a cheaper operating cost and was faster (no new bridge required).
That will be at least for now...

http://trb.org/publications/circulars/ec058/15_03_Turner.pdf is the location of the LRT paper. BCC used sections of it and images, but they did not add references anywhere in it. I was also a bit concerned as a certain paragraph appears to be identical to one in Wikipedia! (Not that wikipedia is wrong or anything, but you know...)

Eventually the busway will have to move to a line-haul and feeder type operational philosophy, where pax must change to a feeder bus along the route. This will be more efficient as I suspect many buses simply carry a lot of air under the current operating philosophy.

A busway platform is approximately 73 meters in length (this already takes into account a ~ 30 cm air space between vehicles when docked).

[#Metro]

The other thing, is with a platform length of 72 meters, you can easily get a LRT-train service carrying 755 passengers at the platform.
Instead the study used 300 pax as its upper limit...

[stephenk]

The other thing, is with a platform length of 72 meters, you can easily get a LRT-train service carrying 755 passengers at the platform.
Instead the study used 300 pax as its upper limit...

Please quote the source of the 755 passenger figure, and the passenger density.

Please also find an example of a non-grade seperated LRT with 72m trains.

[#Metro]

I'll supply a reference.
I think it is fair to say though, we have a difference of opinion here and we'll just have to agree to disagree.


The answers are:
Budapest. But Sydney's light rail system is also capable if required in the future of coupled cars to take 600 pax.
Manila (light metro operation using LRT vehicles, grade separated).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metro_Light_Rail

[#Metro]

It seems that I'm doing a lot of legwork!

There are no street running LRT services with 72 meter trains- yet.
I don't know of an LRT system that has demand so very high that it requires LRT vehicles of such length to be in daily operations.
If something like this was introduced in Brisbane, even in 2026 on the SE Busway, it would probably still have substantial spare space capacity during peak hour!

I have used this as an illustration of what can be achieved with LRT.

Budapest, Hungary however has a 54 meter long LRT service. Should further capacity be required, then sections may be added to increase the length of the LRT service to 72 meters in length. IIRC, the service is not grade separated.



Attribution here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Combino_Supra_2036_in_Budapest.JPG


Wikipedia Extract

Unlike the former Combino model, the Combino Supra is designed in nine meter fixed sections. Each section has a bogie, either powered or unpowered. The tram length can be anywhere from two sections (18 meters) to eight (72 meters).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combino_Supra

[#Metro]

The second reference can be found here.
Note: This is considering if the busway was not converted to light rail, but to light metro using LRT vehicles.


It is the Manila Light Rail System which operates as a light metro.
http://www.lrta.gov.ph/projects/proj_capexIph1.htm

If we take the old 2 car LRT trains which have a capacity of 748 passengers and is 2.5m wide and 60 meters long. This leaves a spare 12 meters for Brisbane to play around with if we need it (this means up to another 150 people if we use the extra space @ 5 pax/m2, total = 900 pax). Brisbane's Arctic buses are 2.5 meters long, so there is no widening of the busway or road alignment is required.

60 m x 2.5 m = 150 m2
748 pax divided by 150 m2 give approximately 5 passengers per square meter. This is for a light metro system.
This is grade separated.

To benchmark against metro systems, we can go the the Siemen's technical data which is in the "Links" section of this forum.
http://aunz.siemens.com/Mobility/TTEL/Documents/Metros.pdf

Here they calculate passenger capacities for their metro and train services (The Melbourne Siemens trains are in that document too)
on the basis of 6 passengers/m2. So we have one less passenger per m2, and this is not taking into account the extra 12 meters we have spare if we were to run such a service in Brisbane. Even at a more liberal 4 passengers/m2 and using all 72 meters space, we can get about 720 pax on board.

It is also worthwhile to note that many places have their buses into batallions/platoons which travel closely together to increase capacity and reliability. This is approaching a series of connected cars, much like an LRT service...

I have answered both questions and provided references.
Constructive comments welcome.

[ButFli]

Please also find an example of a non-grade seperated LRT with 72m trains.

I think the Muni Metro in San Francisco has trains that go close. Wikipedia tells me that each car is 23m long and I recall trains of at least 3 cars.

The routes are grade-seperated with high-level platforms through the main drag with a tunnel under Market St, but once the routes diverge the rails are on the street with low-level or no platforms.

[#Metro]

Youtube video of them running in the street:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLMgwWNbKRk&feature=related

Youtube video of their interior, notice how few seats there are, to maximize capacity.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iOSu4a4yez0&feature=related

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Boulevard_%28Budapest%29#4_and_6_trams

The trams reportedly run routes #4 and #6. These are on the same line and serve the same stations. During peak times there is a tram for each route every 4 minutes, so a 2 minute headway would be expected.

http://www.bkv.hu/villamos/index.html

[#Metro]

The only way to transport it around? By train of course

Looks like a 100m possible too: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1FOvkhSYp1A&feature=related
I Definitely recommend grade separation...

Budapest has some bad traffic congestion:

[longboi]

Please also find an example of a non-grade seperated LRT with 72m trains.

I think the Muni Metro in San Francisco has trains that go close. Wikipedia tells me that each car is 23m long and I recall trains of at least 3 cars.

The routes are grade-seperated with high-level platforms through the main drag with a tunnel under Market St, but once the routes diverge the rails are on the street with low-level or no platforms.

And look what happens at those routes with no platforms:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HvEGmwQidiA&feature=related

[#Metro]

Similar thing happened to me in Melbourne!
However, the Adelaide system has islands. Melbourne copes with their safe zones and placing a sign which extends out into the traffic lane when the door is open, and then folds out of view when it closes.

[somebody]

Briztram was an interesting proposal.  If it had gone ahead, the situation would have been better than it was in 1999, there can be little doubt of that.  But if it had happenned, the Eleanor Schonnell bridge wouldn't have been built.  So are we better off with the Eleanor Schonnell bridge than with Briztram?  I see a few aspects to this one:
1) Operating cost per pax would have been better with Briztram
2) Capital cost of Briztram would have been higher
3) It would have been less convenient for most UQ pax, as mostly they would have to change.  Also, they would generally have a less direct route from the south side than the 139/169/209 buses provide.  One would question how much of a bad thing this would be, as it wouldn't really be much of a disincentive to use the service for Uni students
4) For the SE busway to go through South Bank, the Victoria bridge would have to close to cars.  This may be a positive thing.
5) Peak loadings would run in both directions on Briztram
6) Environmental concerns would probably favour Briztram

[#Metro]

Now that we have the busway infrastructure:

1. It should have been grade separated all the way anyway. Why it is grade separated out in the suburbs, but oops, cultural centre portal isnt is a problem.

2. There are 2 lanes at every busway station. This means that express light rail services might also be possible and overtake a service that is docked at a platform.

The Eleanor Bridge is LRT-compatible.

[somebody]

Superbuses on busways, feed by shuttles seems to be the next stage.  

Bigger buses don't seem to make much sense to me as a capacity increasing measure.  Given that the platforms are a certain length, you can fit less bendy buses on them than rigid buses.  Then you have longer dwell times.  I would suggest that bigger buses on the busway would be a capacity reducing measure!

If you want to increase capacity, expand the platforms.  Most notably, Buranda.  I'm not aware of anywhere else besides the not easily extendible Cultural Centre and the city that there is much reason for capacity increases.

Besides, I understood that bi-artic buses had been deemed unsuitable for the busway.

[ozbob]

Which gets us back to the beginning, TL obviously thinks there is potential for big buses ...  you and I both have some reservations, considering the present systems. The study may well reject them.

[#Metro]

Platform expansion will be easier at many stations, but extremely difficult at others. Cultural Centre, Buranda, Garden City...
Buranda is a station sited between 2 tunnels. This will be a problem. The same for Garden City busway.

I thought that Bi-arctics were fine for the busway.  
Assuming Phileas bus http://www.apts-phileas.com/

Bi-artic bus: 72 meters divided by 24.5 m lengths gives about 3 buses at a platform. So one bus must wait in queue, or bypass
Load (6 pax/m2) this vehicle would carry 171 people.

Bi-arctic bus 72 meters divided by 26 m lengths gives about 2 buses per platform. So two buses must wait in queue or bypass
Load (6 pax/m2) this vehicle would carry 185 people

Light rail using Budapest or Manila style hybrid operation
1 vehicle at the platform. 72m X 2.5m = 180 m2
Passing could be achieved by using laying track in the bus passing lane and placing points at either end.

It seems that buses will be used first to match demand, and then when that is exhausted, upgrade to LRT?

[#Metro]

 

Just a bit confused about one thing.
Lets say we take a 24.5m bi-arctic x 2.5m road width = 61.25 m2
@ 6 passengers/m2 this should be 367 passengers on that bus. But it only has 171 pax as stated capacity.

My question is- Why???
Does seating really take up that much space?

Go to "product range" and the click "Phileas types"

[longboi]

Just a bit confused about one thing.
Lets say we take a 24.5m bi-arctic x 2.5m road width = 61.25 m2
@ 6 passengers/m2 this should be 367 passengers on that bus. But it only has 171 pax as stated capacity.

My question is- Why???
Does seating really take up that much space?

Go to "product range" and the click "Phileas types"

Because there's no way you can fit 6 pax/m2 on a bus 

[#Metro]

Because there's no way you can fit 6 pax/m2 on a bus 

Ignoring sudden bus stops and ride quality, perhaps this is crush loading?

The Phileas website states that they use 6/pax m2 ....

Never mind...

[somebody]

I think it could be possible to dig out the tunnels at Buranda to make it longer.  But where does your 72m platform come from?  I thought 60m was the standard length.  That allows 4x 12.5m buses with 4.? m gap between them.

Bi-artics would need negotiate either the Melbourne St portal, or the loop at Woolloongabba.  If they could do one of those, I guess they could probably work.

Big buses would work well on freeway routes such as the 118, 142 and 153.

[#Metro]

http://www.btbuses.info/?Submit=fleetspecs&find=MAN%20NG313%20artic%20[Custom%20Coaches]&searching=yes

There are 4 bus bays. Each bay is capable of accomodating an arctic bus.
An arctic bus is 18 meters in length.

Therefore the platform length must be at least 4 x 18 m = 72 meters

[ButFli]

Please also find an example of a non-grade seperated LRT with 72m trains.

I think the Muni Metro in San Francisco has trains that go close. Wikipedia tells me that each car is 23m long and I recall trains of at least 3 cars.

The routes are grade-seperated with high-level platforms through the main drag with a tunnel under Market St, but once the routes diverge the rails are on the street with low-level or no platforms.

And look what happens at those routes with no platforms:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HvEGmwQidiA&feature=related

If you think that's bad you better not look at what happens on their cable cars!

Besides, how is what is in that video any different to what happens in any city with trams?

[longboi]

Please also find an example of a non-grade seperated LRT with 72m trains.

I think the Muni Metro in San Francisco has trains that go close. Wikipedia tells me that each car is 23m long and I recall trains of at least 3 cars.

The routes are grade-seperated with high-level platforms through the main drag with a tunnel under Market St, but once the routes diverge the rails are on the street with low-level or no platforms.

And look what happens at those routes with no platforms:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HvEGmwQidiA&feature=related

If you think that's bad you better not look at what happens on their cable cars!

Besides, how is what is in that video any different to what happens in any city with trams?

Nothing - It just goes to show trams are stupid 

[somebody]

http://www.btbuses.info/?Submit=fleetspecs&find=MAN%20NG313%20artic%20[Custom%20Coaches]&searching=yes

There are 4 bus bays. Each bay is capable of accomodating an arctic bus.
An arctic bus is 18 meters in length.

Therefore the platform length must be at least 4 x 18 m = 72 meters

I doubt that 4 artics can stop at the cultural centre simultaneously.

[#Metro]

Cultural Centre of Google Maps

Distance measurement tool ~ 74.2 meters

[stephenk]

Just a bit confused about one thing.
Lets say we take a 24.5m bi-arctic x 2.5m road width = 61.25 m2
@ 6 passengers/m2 this should be 367 passengers on that bus. But it only has 171 pax as stated capacity.

My question is- Why???
Does seating really take up that much space?

Go to "product range" and the click "Phileas types"

Because there's no way you can fit 6 pax/m2 on a bus 

Precisely. 6 pax/m2 on a bus or train in Brisbane is pie in the sky. I would look more at half that figure if you want realistic maximum capacities. QR CityTrain's are realistically full (i.e. people will refuse to board the train) at around 2.5pax/m2.

[#Metro]

QR Trains etc are vehicles designed for lower capacity and have more seating.
Metro vehicles have fewer seats to accommodate more standing passengers and fit more people, which is more suitable for quicker, shorter trips.

I suspect the reason for the discrepancy in the Phileas example might be that they calculate seating first, then apply the 6 passengers/m2 loading to the remaining non-seat areas.

[stephenk]

QR Trains etc are vehicles designed for lower capacity and have more seating.
Metro vehicles have fewer seats to accommodate more standing passengers and fit more people, which is more suitable for quicker, shorter trips.

Thanks for informing me of the obvious. Please note, I have travelled on over 30 metro systems and approx 15 suburban rail systems throughout the world, so I do know a little bit about this subject  

Whilst 6pax/m2 may be reasonably common in Asia, Australians (and Westerners in general) do not like to get quite so cosy with strangers. 6pax/m2 is an unrealistic figure to use in Australia on any form of mass transit.

[#Metro]

In a square metre you can fit 6 people closely. It seems reasonable for a metro system.
All it takes is a measuring tape to check.
6 passengers a m2 is getting close, this would be best for standing passengers.

Given that Australians are getting bigger, we'll have to take this into account...

The latest figures show 4 million Australians — or 26% of the adult population — are now obese compared to an estimated 25% of Americans. A further 5 million Australians are considered overweight.

The report, Australia's Future 'Fat Bomb', from Melbourne's Baker IDI Heart and Diabetes Institute, will be presented at the Federal Government's inquiry into obesity, which comes to Melbourne today

http://www.theage.com.au/lifestyle/wellbeing/australia-now-worlds-fattest-nation-20090407-9xrv.html

[stephenk]

Cultural Centre of Google Maps

Distance measurement tool ~ 74.2 meters

Now measure Mater Hill's platforms 

[dwb]

Bigger buses don't seem to make much sense to me as a capacity increasing measure.  Given that the platforms are a certain length, you can fit less bendy buses on them than rigid buses.  Then you have longer dwell times.  I would suggest that bigger buses on the busway would be a capacity reducing measure!

If you want to increase capacity, expand the platforms.  Most notably, Buranda.  I'm not aware of anywhere else besides the not easily extendible Cultural Centre and the city that there is much reason for capacity increases.

Besides, I understood that bi-artic buses had been deemed unsuitable for the busway.

I agree in the sense that bigger buses might not necessarily increase capacity due to longer dwell times... that is under the board via front door only operating approach. However longer stations have similar problems in that passengers have to walk along the platform further from where they were waiting, slowing the service.

Also, its my understanding that standard busway station platforms were only 45m long (3x bays for standard buses) with a few out there at 60m (4x bays). Cultural has been measured incorrectly, as the platform length does not start/finish at the lift, or where you can walk.

[#Metro]

Hmm.
This is how I derived the length of Cultural Centre Busway:

I observed a bendy bus enter Cultural Centre bus bay.
It fit within the lines of one bay. There are four such marked bays, of equal length.

Next I determined the length of the bus. This can be &searching=yes]looked up on btbuses.info easily.

The length of a bendy bus is 18m. Therefore 18 x 4 = 72m. This is the answer I got.

The stations further out might be more easily extended (with obvious exceptions) if required. I don't think that this will be necessary until they become really really busy. For the moment, skip-stop and zone service philosophies on the busway keep this problem at bay.