Queensland Party - fare policy Seniors

[ozbob]

The Queensland Party has added a policy ' Assist seniors with free public transport from 9am to 2pm, Monday to Friday'

FYI

[#Metro]

I don't know.

I believe that if you can pay that you should contribute something.

[SurfRail]

My preference is to make PT free for all children under 18, whether travelling to school or not, and to also make it free for anybody 65+.  These people don't earn income (largely) and therefore can't contribute meaningfully to the operation of the system - plus getting children canalised at an early age into using PT is a worthy goal.

Plus removing concession fares, lowing all fares, freezing fare increases for the next 3 years until network capacity improved and in particular, lowering the flagfall.

[#Metro]

My preference is to make PT free for all children under 18, whether travelling to school or not, and to also make it free for anybody 65+.  These people don't earn income (largely) and therefore can't contribute meaningfully to the operation of the system - plus getting children canalised at an early age into using PT is a worthy goal.

I think people should pay something unless there is a serious reason as to why they can't. If you sit in a seat you should pay, even if it is $1. Capping and discounted fares are already in place as are welfare payments too.

I don't believe in the "early age impression" thesis either. People are reasonably rational- if PT is rubbish, they just won't use it. There is no reason to have to do this if the quality of PT in your city has decent frequency etc. Time and again service quality has been shown to be far more influential than pricing IMHO.

Even seasoned PT users have been left in a rage when taken via the 105 Yeronga loop and other timewasting routes such as 414.

[ozbob]

Even seasoned PT users have been left in a rage when taken via the 105 Yeronga loop and other timewasting routes such as 414.

I shouldn't laugh, but that is a very funny line IMHO   

[SurfRail]

I think people should pay something unless there is a serious reason as to why they can't. If you sit in a seat you should pay, even if it is $1. Capping and discounted fares are already in place as are welfare payments too.

Why bother?  You aren't going to even approach cost recovery with the current system - better off to just getting people off the roads and focus on getting revenue out of people who can pay.

We both know the system is full of inefficiencies, and I'd rather they be ironed out that trying to garner extra fares as I believe the benefit to the bottom line would be greater.

[mufreight]

Free travel for seniors off peak works in Perth, why not here, they are still required to touch on - touch off whive gives the loading statistics but no fare is charged.  As I understand it, it only applies to seniors and possibly disability pensioners

[#Metro]

Why bother?  You aren't going to even approach cost recovery with the current system - better off to just getting people off the roads and focus on getting revenue out of people who can pay.

What? So seniors can afford to fill up their car and drive but can't afford a $2 or so bus ticket?

[SurfRail]

Why bother?  You aren't going to even approach cost recovery with the current system - better off to just getting people off the roads and focus on getting revenue out of people who can pay.

What? So seniors can afford to fill up their car and drive but can't afford a $2 or so bus ticket?

Yep.  If you can fit 3 or more in, why wouldn't you use the car (which is largely a sunk cost) for discretionary travel?

Same principle applies generally.  If it is cheaper for 2 or more people to drive to a major centre than to catch the bus or a train (including parking in some instances), then the fare system is stuffed.

[Sunbus610]

The South Australian Government provide FREE public transport travel for Senior's around Adelaide Metro area between 9.01am to 3pm weekdays, why can't our tight arse Labor Government here in Queensland do the same

>>>> ADELAIDE METRO website

[ozbob]

Free travel on Saturdays and Sundays within two adjacent zones (e.g. Zones 1 and 2) across Victoria for Seniors.

http://www.myki.com.au/Customer-groups/Seniors/Seniors/default.aspx


NSW Pensioner Excursion Ticket (PET)  Also regional.  $2.50 all day travel

http://www.transport.nsw.gov.au/concessions/pensioners.html

[#Metro]

Could it be because Queensland Taxpayers are also "tight arses?"

[Sunbus610]

Could it be because Queensland Taxpayers are also "tight arses?"

Unlikely IMO, in reality.......do we as the Qld taxpayers'/general public really get a say anyway on what tax funded revenue/spending our government authorities (local, state & federal) utilise or waste (as in many cases) anyways?? When you think about it, many of our senior citz' have already paid their taxes throughout their working life so why shouldn't they be given a small freebie treat like this.

[#Metro]

I don't know. My view, and its only mine, and it is that everybody should pay something if they are able to.

http://www.qcoss.org.au/upload/631__Cost%20of%20Living%20Report%202011%20for%20web.pdf

My thought are along these lines:

1. There are already discounts in place to achieve fairness and equity goals
2. Discounting to zero would not significantly reduce congestion or increase trips (there is already a fare cap in place)
2a. THE DISCOUNT IS NOT AN INCREASE IN MOBILITY. Nobody can get around any faster after the discount than before it.
3. There are already discounts for this group of people - 50%
4. Public transport is relatively cheap anyway
5. Waiting time is the single largest cost in any public transport trip, the nominal price pales when compared to waiting time costs
6. This measure is likely to reduce revenue, which could be better spent on higher frequency
7. Better services using the revenue in (6) would represent an increase in mobility and reduction in waiting time that benefits not only
those who need welfare but EVERYONE.

8. and therefore I think that reducing the price to zero would take us further away from welfare goals, NOT CLOSER
9. Proper increases in community welfare could be met by increasing the rate of welfare $ payment (as this is targeted to those who need it)
rather than a decrease in PT ticket prices; And it is also more flexible too as the individual could decide whether it was PT that was more important
to them or something else like food-- the individual does not have this flexibility to decide if you simply spend the money on reducing the ticket price to zero

The QCOSS report is that it measures relative change. On page 5 of the QCOSS Cost of Living Report public transport is already significantly cheap - PT for an unemployed single person "Trevor" is only $18 out of $301 per week. or 6%! People on the pension earn MORE than this QCOSS and are likely to be travelling LESS I suspect because they don't generally have to make work trips! Example http://www.centrelink.gov.au/internet/internet.nsf/payments/age_rates.htm

Age Pension rates
Single   $670.90*
Couple   $505.70* each


If a senior lived in zone five, made peak hour trips twice a day for 6 days of the week (seems unlikely), the cost would be around $28.32 per week assuming they had GoCard
http://translink.com.au/tickets-and-fares/fares/current-fares or just ~ 8% of their fortnightly income. As this is an extreme case, it is likely that the real value is much lower.

So I would think a measure directed at food or housing plus frequency and PT network improvements would be much better at increasing welfare than reducing PT ticket prices to zero for this group.

*These amounts exclude the Pension Supplement amount which is currently a maximum of $58.40 a fortnight for singles and $88.00 a fortnight for couples (combined).

I don't doubt people's good intentions. But so often the things they ask for have the exact opposite effect to what they intend.
The money saved would have higher social benefit if directed at frequency increases or developing a flexilink/paratransit service rather than PT discounts that I would think many can afford anyway.

[mufreight]

What? So seniors can afford to fill up their car and drive but can't afford a $2 or so bus ticket?

Many seniors do not have cars either because they can no longer drive or simply can not afford to own, maintain or operate one and are so reliant upon public transport.

[#Metro]

Many seniors do not have cars either because they can no longer drive or simply can not afford to own, maintain or operate one and are so reliant upon public transport.

Exactly mufreight... which supports my point that:

Discounting to zero would not significantly reduce congestion or increase trips (there is already a fare cap in place)

If there is a benefit from this policy... congestion reduction is not one of them.

[#Metro]

Funny how the Queensland Party wants to improve public transport by giving discounts on rotten apples... how about a FREQUENCY POLICY for a change? Benefit everyone, seniors included!

[Stillwater]

1.  What is the cost of staffing suburban stations during the day, leaving driving crews, signalling staff and only a skeleton station staff at key stations only?
2.  What is the revenue obtained across all passenger classes between 9.30am and 3pm?
3.  Is 2 greater than 1 -- retain current arrangements.  Is 1 greater than 2 -- then why bother policing or charging fares at that time.
4.  As with some bus companies offering staff split shifts, would QR staff wear working four hours in the morning and four in the evening to make up an eight-hour working day?

[Golliwog]

Because staff at stations aren't just for seeling tickets. They solve passengers problems and keep the place clean as well.

[Stillwater]

I note today that Jetstar will charge passengers who walk past electronic book-in facilities to deal with a human when booking passage on a plane will have to pay a fee of between $5 and $10.  The question is would people solve their own problems, or accept that they will encounter the odd problem if they travel for free outside peak periods.  Help buttons and CCTV may suffice.  Maybe the pool of vomit can sit there for a few hours before being cleaned up, I don't know.  Revelation of the facts might help debate on the matter.

[dwb]

I agree tramtrain!!

Besides, pensioners already get after the second journey free! They've got the best deal out of everyone!!!!

I don't know. My view, and its only mine, and it is that everybody should pay something if they are able to.

http://www.qcoss.org.au/upload/631__Cost%20of%20Living%20Report%202011%20for%20web.pdf

My thought are along these lines:

1. There are already discounts in place to achieve fairness and equity goals
2. Discounting to zero would not significantly reduce congestion or increase trips (there is already a fare cap in place)
2a. THE DISCOUNT IS NOT AN INCREASE IN MOBILITY. Nobody can get around any faster after the discount than before it.
3. There are already discounts for this group of people - 50%
4. Public transport is relatively cheap anyway
5. Waiting time is the single largest cost in any public transport trip, the nominal price pales when compared to waiting time costs
6. This measure is likely to reduce revenue, which could be better spent on higher frequency
7. Better services using the revenue in (6) would represent an increase in mobility and reduction in waiting time that benefits not only
those who need welfare but EVERYONE.

8. and therefore I think that reducing the price to zero would take us further away from welfare goals, NOT CLOSER
9. Proper increases in community welfare could be met by increasing the rate of welfare $ payment (as this is targeted to those who need it)
rather than a decrease in PT ticket prices; And it is also more flexible too as the individual could decide whether it was PT that was more important
to them or something else like food-- the individual does not have this flexibility to decide if you simply spend the money on reducing the ticket price to zero

The QCOSS report is that it measures relative change. On page 5 of the QCOSS Cost of Living Report public transport is already significantly cheap - PT for an unemployed single person "Trevor" is only $18 out of $301 per week. or 6%! People on the pension earn MORE than this QCOSS and are likely to be travelling LESS I suspect because they don't generally have to make work trips! Example http://www.centrelink.gov.au/internet/internet.nsf/payments/age_rates.htm

Age Pension rates
Single   $670.90*
Couple   $505.70* each


If a senior lived in zone five, made peak hour trips twice a day for 6 days of the week (seems unlikely), the cost would be around $28.32 per week assuming they had GoCard
http://translink.com.au/tickets-and-fares/fares/current-fares or just ~ 8% of their fortnightly income. As this is an extreme case, it is likely that the real value is much lower.

So I would think a measure directed at food or housing plus frequency and PT network improvements would be much better at increasing welfare than reducing PT ticket prices to zero for this group.

*These amounts exclude the Pension Supplement amount which is currently a maximum of $58.40 a fortnight for singles and $88.00 a fortnight for couples (combined).

I don't doubt people's good intentions. But so often the things they ask for have the exact opposite effect to what they intend.
The money saved would have higher social benefit if directed at frequency increases or developing a flexilink/paratransit service rather than PT discounts that I would think many can afford anyway.