Counter peak services

[somebody]

One thing I'd like to see to South Brisbane, South Bank, and Park Rd, Milton, Toowong and maybe Indooroopilly is much improved counter peak services.  Many people work at Milton (I used to) and it simply wasn't attractive to use public transport if you might have a long wait at Roma St.  Actually when I worked there I used to walk 40 minutes rather than get the train from Central as a 15 minute service isn't really turn up and go in my book (yes, ok the exercise was attractive too).  Actually one would expect many commuters to Auchenflower too, with the Wesley hospital, but it doesn't show as very important in the loading stats.  Perhaps the poor service is a factor.

Looking at the trip planner you can still have a longish wait (12mins IIRC in my example) at South Bank for a train back to Park Rd if you are coming from the Gold Coast.  This also makes it also quite tough to get to UQ from the north side if you are on a Roma St terminating service.  And the Eco Sciences precinct openning next year at Park Rd will certainly increase trips to get there.

[ozbob]

much improved counter peak services

Yes indeed,  the crowds at Milton most afternoons attest to that ..

Perhaps the poor service is a factor.

Yes, one of the biggest disincentives for public transport use is poor frequency ...

[#Metro]

Can a trial of the Exhibition Station be slipped in on services terminating at Roma St and then continuing on the loop anyway?
Might be worth it if it is publicised and a trial is done. Its additional costs would be close to zero (It would have to be fitted with GoCard friendly equipment if not already done so).

[ozbob]

Ekka has go card equipment (well it did last Ekka ...).  Anyone know if the gear is still there?

[stephenk]

One thing I'd like to see to South Brisbane, South Bank, and Park Rd, Milton, Toowong and maybe Indooroopilly is much improved counter peak services.  Many people work at Milton (I used to) and it simply wasn't attractive to use public transport if you might have a long wait at Roma St.  Actually when I worked there I used to walk 40 minutes rather than get the train from Central as a 15 minute service isn't really turn up and go in my book (yes, ok the exercise was attractive too).  Actually one would expect many commuters to Auchenflower too, with the Wesley hospital, but it doesn't show as very important in the loading stats.  Perhaps the poor service is a factor.

Looking at the trip planner you can still have a longish wait (12mins IIRC in my example) at South Bank for a train back to Park Rd if you are coming from the Gold Coast.  This also makes it also quite tough to get to UQ from the north side if you are on a Roma St terminating service.  And the Eco Sciences precinct openning next year at Park Rd will certainly increase trips to get there.

I would agree here, counter peak services, particularly to inner-city destinations and employment hubs need to be improved. For example there is a counter am peak gap of 23mins from Roma St to Milton/Auchenflower/Toowong. Once there are sufficient trains available to do so, I think that more counter peak empties should be turned into revenue services.

Melbourne seems to have pretty good counter peak services on most lines.

Can a trial of the Exhibition Station be slipped in on services terminating at Roma St and then continuing on the loop anyway?
Might be worth it if it is publicised and a trial is done. Its additional costs would be close to zero (It would have to be fitted with GoCard friendly equipment if not already done so).

It's additional costs would be far more than zero. Staffing? Security? Go-card readers? Useful exits*?
*Due to the station's location it would take a good few minutes walk to actually get out of the Ekka grounds.

Only people from the North would get a one seat journey, but it would be faster to walk to the surrounding area from Bowen Hills. People from the South would have to change, but why not change to the soon to be improved Northern Busway (which is much closer to that areas main employment hub - RBWH).

Whilst I'm not opposed to it, there would have to be a well justified business case before Exhibition is used by Roma St terminators. To use Exhibition for anything other than Roma St terminators would cause severe operational problems. 

[somebody]

Whilst I'm not opposed to it, there would have to be a well justified business case before Exhibition is used by Roma St terminators. To use Exhibition for anything other than Roma St terminators would cause severe operational problems. 

And the main problem here is that in the early parts of the peak, those terminators are actually racing empty to form a new peak service.

I agree with you, the busway will provide better frequency, less walking distance, and a better experience for all.

[Jon Bryant]

I would agree here, counter peak services, particularly to inner-city destinations and employment hubs need to be improved. For example there is a counter am peak gap of 23mins from Roma St to Milton/Auchenflower/Toowong. Once there are sufficient trains available to do so, I think that more counter peak empties should be turned into revenue services.

Melbourne seems to have pretty good counter peak services on most lines.

Agree 100%.  This first and then the Exhibition Line ...maybe.

[somebody]

Melbourne seems to have pretty good counter peak services on most lines.

CityRail's counter peak service was near to it's peak service, although this could be less true than in the past with the Macdonaldtown stabling for southside services.

But thinking some more about this, workers at places like PA Hospital are better off to double change due to poor counter peak rail service.  This will become even more pronounced with the Eco Sciences precinct next year.

When I worked at Milton, the person I sat next to gave up on public transport due to poor counter peak frequency between Roma St and Milton.  Surely these things are easily improved.

[stephenk]

Melbourne seems to have pretty good counter peak services on most lines.

CityRail's counter peak service was near to it's peak service, although this could be less true than in the past with the Macdonaldtown stabling for southside services.

But thinking some more about this, workers at places like PA Hospital are better off to double change due to poor counter peak rail service.  This will become even more pronounced with the Eco Sciences precinct next year.

When I worked at Milton, the person I sat next to gave up on public transport due to poor counter peak frequency between Roma St and Milton.  Surely these things are easily improved.

I worked at the PA for a week last year, and found it easier to use Park Rd rather than the closer Dutton Park as the former station has more services. Thankfully my work times suited through trains to/from Ferny Grove, but there would be occasions when changes would be required. The Queensland Children's Hospital opening 2014 may also increase the requirements for more counter-peak services between Roma St and South Bank.

[somebody]

Actually, PA Hospital seems to give a strong argument to 66+109.  That would be the only way to get a single seat journey to Roma St from the PA Hospital without needing to walk to a train station which isn't that close.  Does seem to destroy the counters to the 109 serving Roma St, which are:
Ipswich/Caboolture/Shorncliffe line can use Toowong
Ferny Grove/Doomben/Airport/Gold Coast/Beenleigh/Cleveland lines can change at South Bank

Of course the problems with those counters are:
Shorncliffe line weeknights
Bus services from Roma St

[somebody]

This also makes it also quite tough to get to UQ from the north side if you are on a Roma St terminating service.  And the Eco Sciences precinct openning next year at Park Rd will certainly increase trips to get there.

According to this link: http://www.boggoroad.com.au/content/standard.asp?name=FAQs

17. What's happening with the Ecosciences Precinct?

The Ecosciences Precinct will harness the intellectual power of over 1,000 research staff to help solve some of the country's biggest environmental issues. Climate change, water issues and balancing the needs of our environment and growth of our industries will be priority research areas.

That's probably not enough to make a huge difference to demand at Park Rd.  So Milton, especially, is the priority.

but a 66+109 service would put a lot of PA Hospital people on those buses, which are taking seats from UQ people.  Trains continuing to Park Rd at least should make this a non-issue.

South Brisbane, South Bank, Park Rd, Toowong, Milton should all have a minimum of an 8 minute frequency counter peak service, and 5 minute frequency would be better.  I don't see much excuse for not providing it.

[stephenk]

Actually, PA Hospital seems to give a strong argument to 66+109.  That would be the only way to get a single seat journey to Roma St from the PA Hospital without needing to walk to a train station which isn't that close.  Does seem to destroy the counters to the 109 serving Roma St, which are:
Ipswich/Caboolture/Shorncliffe line can use Toowong
Ferny Grove/Doomben/Airport/Gold Coast/Beenleigh/Cleveland lines can change at South Bank

Of course the problems with those counters are:
Shorncliffe line weeknights
Bus services from Roma St

With 7 afternoon/evening Ferny Grove services starting from Roma Street, then Park Rd/South Bank/South Brisbane are not always the best place to change. I've been caught out quite a few times with long waits at the above stations - there is even a 38min gap during the late peak. Taking the next available train to Roma Street, or walking from the 109's terminus to Central hasn't always helped catch the Roma Street starter. Thus having the 109 running to Roma Street would be a considerable improvement in my eyes.

[Jon Bryant]

Boggo Road will also have apartments as well.  My main point though is that if we don't provide the service we guarantee that there is no demand.  Provide the service and you will be surprised at the demand generated.   Don't provided it and cater for most trips by car and surprise surprise most people drive.  Self fulfilling prophecy.

[somebody]

Boggo Road will also have apartments as well. 

Unfortunately that doesn't help the case for counter peak services though.

Thus having the 109 running to Roma Street would be a considerable improvement in my eyes.

And once it extends there it is only 2 stops from QUT KG.  And QUT KG is only 2 more stops from RB&WH.

I still think that the most logical northern terminus of a 109 would be QUT KG, because that's where the biggest trip generator is, but add single direction buses (counter peak) relieving between Roma St & RB&WH, adding a stop at Chermside where possible.  Doing so would connect the PA Hospital and UQ Lakes to Roma St etc, etc, and be the cheapest way of providing the necessary service.

But TL have at least agreed to do something about the problem at the hospital.

[stephenk]

Boggo Road will also have apartments as well.  My main point though is that if we don't provide the service we guarantee that there is no demand.  Provide the service and you will be surprised at the demand generated.   Don't provided it and cater for most trips by car and surprise surprise most people drive.  Self fulfilling prophecy.

I'm inclined to agree here. If decent public transport is provided before people move in, they may well use that transport provided. If public transport is an after thought, then it may be a struggle to convert them to public transport at a later date.

However, considering how long it took Translink to provide a decent bus service to an established transport hub (RBWH), I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for a Buzzed 109. Still, I think we have only had 20,000 of the 201,000 extra seats/week on buses announced so far, so you never know!

And once it extends there it is only 2 stops from QUT KG.  And QUT KG is only 2 more stops from RB&WH.

I still think that the most logical northern terminus of a 109 would be QUT KG, because that's where the biggest trip generator is, but add single direction buses (counter peak) relieving between Roma St & RB&WH, adding a stop at Chermside where possible.  Doing so would connect the PA Hospital and UQ Lakes to Roma St etc, etc, and be the cheapest way of providing the necessary service.

But TL have at least agreed to do something about the problem at the hospital.

For reliability reasons it is essential that there is a busway only service terminating at RBWH.

[somebody]

For reliability reasons it is essential that there is a busway only service terminating at RBWH.

Reliability is nice, but it's more important when the frequency is lower.  When the frequency is likely to be 3 minute or so, it's less important.

[somebody]

Continuing on from the discussion above about Milton counter peak services being the priority, I propose the extensions of the following existing services, assuming there is no re-write of the timetable:
8:47am Roma St terminator from Petrie
8:27am Roma St terminator from Petrie

5:04pm Roma St to Shorncliffe
5:22pm Roma St to Caboolture
5:29pm Roma St to Shorncliffe
(times at Roma St)
also have the Redbank-Roma St train which leaves Redbank at 3:47 leave 3 minutes earlier to become the Petrie service rather than proceeding to Shorncliffe.  Given that it arrives at Redbank at 3:30, I can't see a problem with this one unless perhaps it is using the Dinmore Cattle siding to reverse.

This still leaves a 19 minute gap at Milton between 3:58pm and 4:17pm, but no suitable services could be extended to fill that gap.

EDIT: I'd also add extending these AM services:
6:42am Caboolture to Roma St
7:09am Caboolture to Roma St
7:53am Petrie to Roma St

I'd also add that it would probably be worthwhile to add express patterns to the counter peak trains which run all the way to Ipswich, if a complete timetable review were done.  That's a lot better than some racing empty while others stop all stations.

[#Metro]

I like the idea of 109 + 66.

When everyone else is heading toward the city in the AM peak, all the uni students are heading away from the city.
When everyone else is heading away from the city in the PM peak, all the uni students are heading towards the city to interchange.

This means that in both directions, the bus will always be well patronised.
If this route were to be taken into effect, there is a good chance that it would rival 199 in terms of patronage. And it is a bendy bus!

[dwb]

Quote from: stephenk on February 19, 2010, 08:38:43 PM
For reliability reasons it is essential that there is a busway only service terminating at RBWH.
Reliability is nice, but it's more important when the frequency is lower.  When the frequency is likely to be 3 minute or so, it's less important.

No way! Reliability, not getting caught in traffic mess is an absolute must, think of every time there is an accident your 98% busway route all of a sudden has NO service.

[somebody]

No way! Reliability, not getting caught in traffic mess is an absolute must, think of every time there is an accident your 98% busway route all of a sudden has NO service.

That's a day of operation issue.  Day of operation issues should be dealt with as they happen.  There can be accidents in the busway too. 

[dwb]

I'm going to repeat my previous statement, no way!

That's a day of operation issue.  Day of operation issues should be dealt with as they happen.  There can be accidents in the busway too.

Sure accidents happen on the busway and they should be proactively dealt, routes rerouted etc, however I do not believe the benefit outweighs the cost, I think busway only routes are really important to make the bus system more like the rail system.... ie independant of road conditions.