What is the next most pressing bus fix?

[ozbob]

Posted by David here

Found this over at ATDB http://www.busaustralia.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=49039

Quote
From Feb 22 the following services will have changes:

Route 109 (UQ Lakes to City) will now travel via the Boggo Road Busway servicing Boggo Road Station and PA Hospital Station.
Route 66 (Gabba to QUT Kelvin Grove) will be extended to the Royal Brisbane Hospital Station (now servcing the Royal Childrens Hospital Station and providing a route that connects all inner city busway stations).

Other routes to have alterations and extra services added are: 139, 160, 169, 206, 333, 343, 345 and 412.

What do think it the next major bus priority to be sorted?

T3 lanes on Coronation Drive?

[#Metro]

Western Busway.
Lanes are not good enough. 100% dedicated busway in a Tunnel, underground portals at Suncorp, Paddington, Milton restaurants Toowong, Indooroopilly all the way to Centenary and Moggill.

If the train line there were so well there would be no need to run any buses along Coro Drive and Milton Rd, but this can't be true because the buses are there and they are well used...

[david]

Definitely a MAJOR review of western suburb bus routes is required. There should be some sort of major community consultation with regards to:

a) Terminating routes at key interchanges (either Indooroopilly/Toowong)
b) Creating new feeder routes to key train stations (e.g. Darra) especially if there is a large community demand for them
c) A new BUZ for the Centenary suburbs
d) Green bridge between Bellbowrie and Riverhills

I would like to see the western suburbs being used as a major trial for feeder routes to train stations. Let's see if it is successful here and then implement it, especially in the northern suburbs, where there is spare capacity on the Caboolture line. This might even reduce the need for the Northern Busway extension from Kedron to Chermside (which is a ridiculous proposal, especially since a Western Busway isn't on the agenda) which will spare up money to be pumped into the Cross River Rail.

[somebody]

Definitely a MAJOR review of western suburb bus routes is required. There should be some sort of major community consultation with regards to:

a) Terminating routes at key interchanges (either Indooroopilly/Toowong)

I'd rule out Toowong.  The only really possible location is where the Royal Exchange is, but more importantly, if you are going to have a change, it should get benefit for more kms.

I do agree the western routes are crap!  4 places in the city to get a bus to Toowong, and 3 for Indro?  All stoppers accessing the city faster than the CityXpresses? etc etc.

b) Creating new feeder routes to key train stations (e.g. Darra) especially if there is a large community demand for them
c) A new BUZ for the Centenary suburbs
d) Green bridge between Bellbowrie and Riverhills

I would like to see the western suburbs being used as a major trial for feeder routes to train stations. Let's see if it is successful here and then implement it, especially in the northern suburbs, where there is spare capacity on the Caboolture line. This might even reduce the need for the Northern Busway extension from Kedron to Chermside (which is a ridiculous proposal, especially since a Western Busway isn't on the agenda) which will spare up money to be pumped into the Cross River Rail.

Feeders, maybe.  BUZ routes, I'd have to say that I'm not convinced that the west is next in line, with the possible exception of the 412.

I'm also not convinced that the Kedron-Chermside extension would be ridiculous.  For the west, it's either Feeder buses or western busway, but not both.

Green bridge is an interesting proposal, but what would run on it?  444, or keep that and add another bus?

T3 lanes on Coronation Drive?

Definitely, but I'd say a bus lane rather than a T3 lane.  That's what's required in the short term, interchange or western busway in the longer term.

EDIT: bus lane should extend to Marshal Lane at Kenmore.  Also, re-route the 426/431/446/455/456/461 to take advantage of the bus lane.  And a bus lane on Milton Rd outbound as far as Cribb St 24/7.  That probably needs an additional lane for the few hundred metres of Milton Rd.

[somebody]

Probably the second most would be running the Ipswich Rd services through the Boggo Rd busway's O'Keefe St portal.  Why was it built if they don't want to use it?

[Emmie]

I'd rule out Toowong.  The only really possible location is where the Royal Exchange is, but more importantly, if you are going to have a change, it should get benefit for more kms.

I do agree the western routes are crap!  4 places in the city to get a bus to Toowong, and 3 for Indro?  All stoppers accessing the city faster than the CityXpresses? etc etc.

Toowong is a nightmare, true, but it does need a proper interchange somewhere - what happened to the idea of using the land at the old ABC site?

But Somebody brings up another important issue - It's crazy that not all buses to the Western Suburbs leave from the same location, but are stretched out all along Adelaide and George St.  My particular gripe is the 109, which has a city stop in George, far beyond easy reach of Central Station, but the same is generally true of all the Adelaide stops.

[beauyboy]

The truth is I never could see an issue with where the 109 & 412 parked at in the CBD. The truth is if you are transfering from a train you really should be transfering at another station. EG Park Rd/Boggo Rd (for UQ lakes) or Toowong (for Chancellers Place).

I remember afew years ago there was a girl on TV complaining saying she came from Ferny Grove and had to walk all the way up to the stop . All I could think was you stupid girl as she could of stayed on the train and gotten off at Dutten Park and walked from there. Oh well you know what they say about smart people, "more brains then commen sense"

As for the next fix. I think it should be adding a BUZ to Kingsfordsmith Drive (rooute 300). As we all know this road is at capacity and we all know how successful the BUZ concept has been. I think it is time it was applied to this corridor, especially with the high rise going up at Hamilton. Get the people to start using Buses before they set into I need a car.

Donald

[somebody]

The truth is I never could see an issue with where the 109 & 412 parked at in the CBD. The truth is if you are transfering from a train you really should be transfering at another station. EG Park Rd/Boggo Rd (for UQ lakes) or Toowong (for Chancellers Place).

Really?  What about Emmie's weeknight UQ-Shorncliffe line commutes?  Not too bad in the day as you can use Toowong, but at night you should really stay on the 412 until Herschel St.

That's actually probably the main problem with the current system, but for people coming from places in UQ where UQ Lakes is significantly closer than Chancellor's Place and heading to Shorncliffe or Caboolture they would need to take a longer walk than they would if there was a 66+109 route.

The other problem with the 412's City Stop location is what if you are heading to one of the stops it has in common with the 411?  I don't think the 412 is worth waiting another 10 minutes for as compared to a 411.

[beauyboy]

True true

But still it works pretty well.

Donald

[somebody]

But still it works pretty well.

Could be better.  Also, heading outbound you don't have the option of using the Herschel St stop, and train frequency to Toowong is not that great at 15 minutes weekday daytime and 30 minutes weeknights and weekends.  It's just another example of Translink mediocrity.

But back on topic, I disagree with your suggestion that a 300 BUZ is more important than a Coro Dr-Kenmore bus lane (hey, if you don't ask for what you really want, you aren't going to get it).  For a start that would cost a gazillion bucks while the bus lane would save bucks.  A 300 BUZ would attract a few PT trips, but the bus lane might be a doubling of trips for the west.

[beauyboy]

I never ment to put the Western project ideas down, I just have no knowledge of them so I reserve Judgement.

I just think a 300 BUZ would be a good idea for the inner North East & the mutiple activity centers it would service.

Donald

[#Metro]

CityGlider is scheduled for the Hamilton area. Don't know if this will mean going to Toombul (seems logical though).

[somebody]

Actually I think CBD bus lanes are currently insufficient.  Ann & Elizabeth Sts between George & Creek Sts, should be done, and probably Edward, Creek and Alice.

Still, I think Coro (or Milton Rd) is probably the most pressing.

[somebody]

According to this link from 2008: http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/news/queensland/months-to-ditch-coro-drive-expensive-flop/2008/09/01/1220121101992.html
Coro Drive is to get a T2 inbound lane once the Go Between Bridge is done.  Not sure why they would be waiting though except for the trouble with the overpass.

One of the inbound lanes will become a a T2 lane - allowing cars with two passengers and buses once construction on the Hale Street Link project from Milton to South Brisbane is well developed.

Does anyone know if that's still the plan?

[cartel_brisbane]

It wasn't that long ago we out in the western 'burbs were lucky to even get a bus anywhere at the weekend.  It was a major triumph a few years ago getting the 468 route established.

[#Metro]

How did 468 come about?

[Golliwog]

Does anyone know how fast they can build buses at the new bus build site? I know Toowong was apparently 1 new bus every 3 days. And are they still stopping production of buses at Toowong? Seeing as bus patronage and therefore the number of buses required is only going to be increasing, why don't they build another bus build site?

On another point, I think the next routes that need fixing are not any particular routes, but re-organising the bus routes so that instead of a large number of different routes coming into the city from each area, there are high frequency (city glider frequency, in peak at least anyway) trunk routes with proper feeder services, similar-ish to the 400 route that was introduced for the construction of the Hale St Link.

[Jon Bryant]

Plus bus lanes on all major roads.  Clem 7 is a failure and a new approaches/ways are needed.

[Golliwog]

This is true. One of my dislikes about the busways is that they are built as a completely seperate road. IMO, it should be built as a seperate road, or as a busway built into the median strip, eg: how the tramway was built and can still be seen along the route of the eastern busway. It would be much cheaper and almost as effective, if not more so, to build them as their own bus only lanes within the roads, removing the cost of building an entirely new road and possible tunnel/bridge. Yes the road would need to be expanded or the car space reduced, but in the case of the latter, isn't this what PT is ultimately trying to achieve?

[somebody]

This is true. One of my dislikes about the busways is that they are built as a completely seperate road. IMO, it should be built as a seperate road, or as a busway built into the median strip, eg: how the tramway was built and can still be seen along the route of the eastern busway. It would be much cheaper and almost as effective, if not more so, to build them as their own bus only lanes within the roads, removing the cost of building an entirely new road and possible tunnel/bridge. Yes the road would need to be expanded or the car space reduced, but in the case of the latter, isn't this what PT is ultimately trying to achieve?

Um, wouldn't that have conflicts at junctions for a start?  What's the difference between what you are suggesting and a bus lane?

EDIT: spelling

[Golliwog]

Not much difference, other than a solid traffic island to keep cars out. And the issues with junction can be solved by providing lights that give preference to buses.

[somebody]

I actually don't see much value in that then.  Sorry, but that's the way I see it.  That means that left turners need a seperate cycle of traffic lights to cross the "Transitway".  The Moore Park bus road in Sydney has something similar, but now it's only used by 37n and X7n routes.  The 39n and X9n routes just stick to the general traffic road rather than use the bus road.  Northbound this makes sense because you would need to cross the traffic twice, but they don't use it south bound either.  Another problem is how are buses to pass other buses at stops?  You'd need to make it 4 lanes wide to allow for this.

But as for your suggestion to "provide lights that give preference to buses", I'm not sure how that would work any better than a bus lane.  And the busway idea is really far better in the sense that it is supposed to eliminate junction delays, except for junctions with other buses.

Sydney also has a Parramatta-Liverpool transitway, but I'm not that familiar with that one.  I think initial pax was low, but it could have picked up.

[ButFli]

Not much difference, other than a solid traffic island to keep cars out. And the issues with junction can be solved by providing lights that give preference to buses.

But look at the mess at that intersection near Cultural Centre and South Brisbane station where the busway changes from a separate road to half a normal road. All the traffic light priority in the world is not going to fix that. If your little plan is realised then every major intersection will be like that. Your plan might work on roads that have no cross streets - motorways.

[Golliwog]

The mess at the CC is only like it is because they are locating the 2 intersections so close together and with limited road space so adequte turning lanes for the buses can not be provided. Part of the Eastern Busway is a central bus road, although I think they are still going to have concrete barriers either side. Yes this does work best with no cross roads, but even a simple cross road is doable, they just need to use current technology to its fullest. Use vehicle detection loops in the busway, say 50m (I'm just guessing, you can take average speed, light change times etc to work out a 'proper' distance) from the intersection so the lights change for the bus with little or no slowing. Currently I think most lights have one right at the front of the queue and a second 2 or 3 cars from the front to detect when there is traffic/approaching vehicle. Of course this wouldn't work al lthe time with a very high frequency of services, but you get the idea.

[ButFli]

But if you are going to build "busways" by fencing off ordinary road lanes you can't choose for there not to be two intersections close together. If they're there, they're there.

I agree that if they are cross-street intersections only with no turning by buses then a busway down the centre of a road could work.

[stephenk]

This is true. One of my dislikes about the busways is that they are built as a completely seperate road. IMO, it should be built as a seperate road, or as a busway built into the median strip, eg: how the tramway was built and can still be seen along the route of the eastern busway. It would be much cheaper and almost as effective, if not more so, to build them as their own bus only lanes within the roads, removing the cost of building an entirely new road and possible tunnel/bridge. Yes the road would need to be expanded or the car space reduced, but in the case of the latter, isn't this what PT is ultimately trying to achieve?

Median strip may be OK of you want a high frequency/capacity core route with few buses turning off and higher station costs.

If you will have buses turning on and off the busway frequently, and want to spend less on station infrastructure, then bus lanes on the side of the roads may be a better option.

[#Metro]

But look at the mess at that intersection near Cultural Centre and South Brisbane station where the busway changes from a separate road to half a normal road. All the traffic light priority in the world is not going to fix that.

I tend to agree with ButFli. With a bus every 19 seconds or so in peak hour, those traffic lights would have to be permanently stuck on "Go".

[david]

How did 468 come about?

I believe it was created to provide a service to DFO Jindalee, because residents there feared the worst in terms of car parking congestion. Plus, the residents in that area didn't have access to an inbound service - the buses servicing the area previously used to be Mt Ommaney-bound buses only.

The western suburbs seems to have been a very successful testing ground for feeder services into train stations - e.g. 101, 102, 103, 106, 451, 452, 462, 467 and 468 are all popular services that feed into train stations, but their frequency and unreliable train-bus connections leave a lot to be desired.

[dwb]

http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=3756.0

[somebody]

http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=3756.0

Sigh.

Did you have to add this link to so many threads?

[dwb]

They're all related posts, the beauty of the internet is cross-linking/posting.

[longboi]

They're all related posts, the beauty of the internet is cross-linking/posting.

And the scourge of all internet forums is bumping old threads...

[dwb]

And the scourge of all internet forums is bumping old threads...

If you look at the history of my contributions to the forum it's clear that:
a) I'm NOT a regular bumper/flamer/other
b) I AM a regular and valuable contributor.

However point taken.