Timetable Changes November/December 09

[Arnz]

If I recall correctly, there was proposed timetables for the majority of lines by the end of the year.  By then, the Varsity Lakes extension would be open, and the temporary platform extensions at stations beyond Landsborough on the Sunshine Coast Line would be completed by now.  

Using current timetables, the extra rollingstock (new SMUs/IMUs), and the completed infrastructure on the Gold and Sunshine Coast lines (with no CBD capacity increases till 2016 at the earliest).

What do you think, or maybe even suggest, that should or may be altered, or even added into the timetable on your respective lines? (at least be reasonable here).

(Reply to my own post will be in a separate post).

[ButFli]

Half-hour frequency between on the full length of every line all day, every day. Overlay another half-hour frequency train between say, 7AM and 9PM out to an intermediate station on each line like Darra, Kuraby, Petrie etc to make a 15 minute frequency as far as these stations. Keep the peaks ramped up like now and extend where possible.

[somebody]

I like the hourly frequency Mon-Thu a lot better than the earlier finish on Sunday night.

One thing I would like (besides obvious things like fixing gaps, improving reliability and predictability) is to extend the 15 minute frequency on the inner Ipswich line.  I'd like it to 9pm.

Another would be a later last service on Sun-Thu.  A half hour later than the current Mon-Thu last outbound service would be a significant improvement.


IMO Kuraby would be too far for 15 minute frequency on the Beenleigh line.  You shouldn't push operating margins that tight off peak.  Yeerongpilly would be fine, but I'm not sure if there's anywhere between those two points where you could turn the trains around.

[justanotheruser]

Personally I would like to see services operate on the ipswich line leaving Central about 12:30 am on Sun-Thur. It would be nice to be able to give my boss some extra options for rostering staff. At the moment she is limited by who can drive.

As far as weekend services go early Sunday morning they are hourly services. These arrive in the city on the hour. I would suggest that people who may be travelling at that time to work or church need to be there on the hour and don't enjoy having to leave earlier and wait around for 55 minutes before their starting time. Could not those first few services be moved forward a bit?

[longboi]

IMO Kuraby would be too far for 15 minute frequency on the Beenleigh line.  You shouldn't push operating margins that tight off peak.  Yeerongpilly would be fine, but I'm not sure if there's anywhere between those two points where you could turn the trains around.

You have the choices of Rocklea or Sunnybank (my pick) 

[O_128]

why not extend beenleigh services to robina in peak times

[david]

I would like to see a standard express pattern on the Ipswich line during the AM peak, a bit like what the Beenleigh Line has at the moment. I would suggest:

1- Express Goodna to Darra and Corinda to Roma St, stopping at Indooroopilly and Toowong
and
2 - Express Darra to Roma St

My suggestions:

AM peak (ex Ipswich)
6:46am - Pattern 2
6:51am - Pattern 1
(An extra service ex Corinda would need to be added around 7:20am to compensate)
7:05am - Pattern 2 (as per currently scheduled)
7:16am - Pattern 1 (as per currently scheduled)
7:20am - Pattern 2
7:32am - Pattern 1
Extend 7:58am (ex Redbank) to Ipswich - Pattern 2

PM Peak
It would be easier to wait until the third track between Corinda and Darra opens until implementing this idea to PM peak. For the meantime, I suggest the following -
(ex Central)
extra train at 4:28pm - All stations to Darra
5:09pm - All stations to Darra
5:13pm - Departs at 5:17pm - All stations to Ipswich
(allows for 5:21pm express to arrive earlier at Darra and between Redbank and Ipswich)
5:42pm - terminate at Darra - becomes 6:19pm Darra to Shorncliffe (currently departs Corinda at 6:25pm)

[somebody]

1- Express Goodna to Darra and Corinda to Roma St, stopping at Indooroopilly and Toowong
and
2 - Express Darra to Roma St

Hate to pick fault, but isn't that a skip-stop pattern?  It's not necessary to do such a thing with the quad tracks from Corinda.  You might as well go for super-express trains running express Goodna to Darra and Darra to Roma St.  Actually add a stop at Toowong to allow transfers to UQ. Then have some Redbank starters running express between Corinda and Indooroopilly, Indooroopilly and Toowong & Toowong and Milton.  And obviously Corinda-City all stations.

Obviously the downsides to this is are you need to change to get between Ipswich & Indooroopilly (are there very many of these?), and under both proposals you would need to change to get between Ipswich & Milton.

[longboi]

1- Express Goodna to Darra and Corinda to Roma St, stopping at Indooroopilly and Toowong
and
2 - Express Darra to Roma St

Hate to pick fault, but isn't that a skip-stop pattern?  It's not necessary to do such a thing with the quad tracks from Corinda.  You might as well go for super-express trains running express Goodna to Darra and Darra to Roma St.  Actually add a stop at Toowong to allow transfers to UQ. Then have some Redbank starters running express between Corinda and Indooroopilly, Indooroopilly and Toowong & Toowong and Milton.  And obviously Corinda-City all stations.

Obviously the downsides to this is are you need to change to get between Ipswich & Indooroopilly (are there very many of these?), and under both proposals you would need to change to get between Ipswich & Milton.

Once Richlands opens, you could do an all day Ipswich>Goodna>Darra>Indro>Toowong>Milton>Roma St alternating with Ipswich-Caboolture all stoppers and Richlands-Shorncliffe all stoppers. During peak, you would add a few Redbank starters/terminators and improve links between Ipswich, Springfield and Brisbane.

When/If the Ipswich-Springfield line happens, you would extend the limited stop Ipswich service to all stations Ipswich-Springfield.

[Mozz]

Some good ideas here. Living at Oxley I can't say anything that won't sound biased..... but remember that Oxley is one of the busiest suburban stations, busier than darra and corinda (and sherwood, graceville, chelmer, wacol, gailes, etc etc) I understand. So suggestions to reduce/limit the existing or future numbers of stops to Oxley station might need reworking but I don't know anything about timetabling so happy to hear cogent arguments.

[somebody]

Oxley isn't too badly off under my proposal.  Central is the 6th stop.  Also, I doubt there are many Ipswich-Oxley commuters.  The nastiest parts are skipping Milton & Corinda.  The latter means to get from Ipswich to Sherwood you would need to double change, or backtrack.  I have assumed that there are so few people doing such strange moves in the peak that it doesn't need to be worried about.

Once Richlands is open you would extend the all stoppers there.  That would double the service at Oxley.  But this thread is based on a review before that is available.

Each pattern should probably run at a 12 minute frequency, but it would probably still be OK with a 15 minute frequency.

I am also assuming a probable increase in the usage of bus/rail connections at Darra.


Regarding the Ipswich-Springfield thing.  Are you sure there would be such trains?  If you are doing moves like that you have to expect to change at Darra.

[ozbob]

Just an observation in PM peaks.  I have noted a number of folks do go counter flow to get seats on longer runs.  For example people travelling from CBD to FV and Bowen Hills to get seats on Ipswich Rosewood services.  In a similar fashion people travelling to Roma St from other CBD stations to get a seat on Nambour services.  The 4.30pm Nambour service weekdays has a considerable crowd of folks who get on at Roma St.

[david]

but remember that Oxley is one of the busiest suburban stations, busier than darra and corinda (and sherwood, graceville, chelmer, wacol, gailes, etc etc) I understand. So suggestions to reduce/limit the existing or future numbers of stops to Oxley station might need reworking but I don't know anything about timetabling so happy to hear cogent arguments.

According to the survey released in March this year, Darra is slightly busier than Oxley.

Still...when Richlands opens, I believe that quite a lot of the passengers especially using Oxley will decrease, as the many passengers using Oxley are from the Inala/Durack/Richlands area. The reduction at Darra will be minimal though, thanks to the Centenary suburbs feeding into it - as well as the 3 feeder bus routes.

I believe that provides jusification for not having super-express trains stopping at Oxley.

Hate to pick fault, but isn't that a skip-stop pattern?  It's not necessary to do such a thing with the quad tracks from Corinda.  You might as well go for super-express trains running express Goodna to Darra and Darra to Roma St.  Actually add a stop at Toowong to allow transfers to UQ. Then have some Redbank starters running express between Corinda and Indooroopilly, Indooroopilly and Toowong & Toowong and Milton.  And obviously Corinda-City all stations.

The one that currently operates is surprisingly popular, despite the constant stopping. I believe that it gives passengers from Ipswich to Corinda quicker access to Indooroopilly and Toowong, and also provides a decent express service from Indooroopilly and Toowong (which is justified because of their large passenger volumes). In the future, using your idea would be better (with a stop at Indooroopilly as well) as once Richlands opens, changing services at Darra would (hopefully) be a breeze.

Having these express services will also improve the overcrowding from Corinda to Milton, as it would attract passengers away from all stations services at Darra, Oxley and Corinda, leaving seats behind for people between Corinda and Milton.

As for starting trains at Redbank - It really needs a third platform, otherwise services would be severely restricted through that area (as they currently are...). Starting trains at Ipswich or Darra (especially when the third track opens) would be better.

[somebody]

Is there a link to that study?  I've been looking for that info.

Also, is there really a need to provide for Ipswich-Indooroopilly movements?  2/3rds of all trains stopping there should be enough to get from the city to Indooroopilly.

You can turn around trains in the yards at Redbank.  A 3rd platform would make it easier so long as it was a centre turnback and didn't need to cross running lines.

[david]

Not quite sure which study you're referring to...but here's the links for the ones I've mentioned

Passenger Load Survey - March 2009 - http://www.media.qr.com.au/Libraries/Key_Documents/Passenger_Load_Survey_2009.sflb.ashx

Translink Network Plan (Has projections regarding which suburbs feed into which stations and how large the catchment is) - http://download.translink.com.au/networkplan/chapter3.2.pdf - page 3

[somebody]

Passenger Load Survey - March 2009 -
http://www.media.qr.com.au/Libraries/Key_Documents/Passenger_Load_Survey_2009.sflb.ashx

This was what I was after.  It does show that there is a need to cater for Ipswich-Indooroopilly commuters.  Also, I checked at Redbank and turning around in the yards is still ugly.  You need to stop on the wrong platform in one direction.  I might have to rethink some of my proposal.

[longboi]

Just an observation in PM peaks.  I have noted a number of folks do go counter flow to get seats on longer runs.  For example people travelling from CBD to FV and Bowen Hills to get seats on Ipswich Rosewood services.  In a similar fashion people travelling to Roma St from other CBD stations to get a seat on Nambour services.  The 4.30pm Nambour service weekdays has a considerable crowd of folks who get on at Roma St.

I've been doing it for years  

Passenger Load Survey - March 2009 -
http://www.media.qr.com.au/Libraries/Key_Documents/Passenger_Load_Survey_2009.sflb.ashx

This was what I was after.  It does show that there is a need to cater for Ipswich-Indooroopilly commuters.  Also, I checked at Redbank and turning around in the yards is still ugly.  You need to stop on the wrong platform in one direction.  I might have to rethink some of my proposal.

What about heading down to Dinmore empty and turnback from the cattle siding?

[somebody]

What about heading down to Dinmore empty and turnback from the cattle siding?

What siding is this?  Is it still there?

[longboi]

What about heading down to Dinmore empty and turnback from the cattle siding?

What siding is this?  Is it still there?

Immediately North of Dinmore there is a wired siding to a small platform behind some cattle farm.

[david]

Getting a train to head down to Dinmore to turn back wastes quite a bit of time. I know that the 4:09pm Redbank train does this.

Just a couple more suggestions from me:

I believe I have mentioned this before, but the currently Manly-Park Road express needs to be reduced to allow for extra services, as the headways for this service are enormous. My suggestion is express Manly to Cannon Hill, stopping at Wynnum North. Might allow for more Thorneside/Manly-City services to be added during peak as well.

Also, with regards to the Beenleigh Line, does anyone know if the Kuraby-Park Road expresses are feasible? Are they popular enough to add more of those services? If so, there may be a way to add more services to the Beenleigh Line, using some very tricky timetabling.

[somebody]

Immediately North of Dinmore there is a wired siding to a small platform behind some cattle farm.

See it now.  You might as well also stop at Riverview if you are going to use this siding.

I believe I have mentioned this before, but the currently Manly-Park Road express needs to be reduced to allow for extra services, as the headways for this service are enormous. My suggestion is express Manly to Cannon Hill, stopping at Wynnum North. Might allow for more Thorneside/Manly-City services to be added during peak as well.

Why not add a few crossovers and use the freight track?  I know it doesn't go all the way to Manly.

Also, with regards to the Beenleigh Line, does anyone know if the Kuraby-Park Road expresses are feasible? Are they popular enough to add more of those services? If so, there may be a way to add more services to the Beenleigh Line, using some very tricky timetabling.

You mean all stops Beenleigh-Kuraby then next stop Park Rd?  It shouldn't be too difficult to do this if you make that South Bank.  Just run on the third track, since you should be moving at the same speed as the Gold Coast train.

[mufreight]

It all comes back to the rather painful fact that seems to being overlooked that there is a track capacity problem and the money that it is proposed be spent on implementing these less that practical marginal operational changes would be better spent at this time on the infrastructure needed NOW to remove the choke points in the system     

[somebody]

Not quite sure which study you're referring to...but here's the links for the ones I've mentioned

By the way, thanks for these links.

[justanotheruser]

I would like to see a standard express pattern on the Ipswich line during the AM peak, a bit like what the Beenleigh Line has at the moment. I would suggest:

1- Express Goodna to Darra and Corinda to Roma St, stopping at Indooroopilly and Toowong
and
2 - Express Darra to Roma St

My suggestions:

AM peak (ex Ipswich)
6:46am - Pattern 2
6:51am - Pattern 1
(An extra service ex Corinda would need to be added around 7:20am to compensate)
7:05am - Pattern 2 (as per currently scheduled)
7:16am - Pattern 1 (as per currently scheduled)
7:20am - Pattern 2
7:32am - Pattern 1
Extend 7:58am (ex Redbank) to Ipswich - Pattern 2

PM Peak
It would be easier to wait until the third track between Corinda and Darra opens until implementing this idea to PM peak. For the meantime, I suggest the following -
(ex Central)
extra train at 4:28pm - All stations to Darra
5:09pm - All stations to Darra
5:13pm - Departs at 5:17pm - All stations to Ipswich
(allows for 5:21pm express to arrive earlier at Darra and between Redbank and Ipswich)
5:42pm - terminate at Darra - becomes 6:19pm Darra to Shorncliffe (currently departs Corinda at 6:25pm)

I consider this view to be a problem. Not everyone goes to the city. I see about 40 people getting off the peak hour train at milton (I only catch peak hour trains once a week). That seems enough to have some express services stopping there. I think it is good that everyone gets an opportunity to catch an express. Why should it just be the same people who get the benefit. BT years ago set up a coffee van at Ashgrove and asked for feedback. One suggestion I made then was that heaps of people work and or study at the Herston medical complex. Yet public transport did not provide handy transport solution. it has improved with the INB.

Part of the whole problem is everything being in the city. How does one encourage people to use public transport if your not in the city if that is all you cater for?
how does one expect offices to move out of the CBD if they are going to have problems getting their staff to work because all the express trains skip that station.

The 6:46am from ipswich and the train before or after in my opinion have a good mix of express. different stations get skipped.

[david]

That is a good point. A quick look at the Passenger Load Survey in March suggests that 477 people get off at Milton on services inbound to the City. (For comparison, 569 people alight at Toowong and 756 at Indooroopilly). Although the express services I have proposed do not cater for this, hopefully, people will be willing to change services at Darra/Toowong. Alternatively, a quick backtrack at Roma St may work, if the express services can be coordinated to connect with Ipswich-bound trains.

Mind you, the only express service that is time-saving for Milton passengers is the 7:58am Redbank-Doomben train. The other two services may as well become all-stations, as they are seriously slow (7:20am Ipswich-City) or overcrowded (6:51am Ipswich-Shorncliffe). One might as well catch an all-stations service.

Which brings me to my next suggestion:

Extend the 7:14am Redbank-Nambour train to start at Ipswich. This would provide half-hourly Ipswich-City all stations services during peak, which can accommodate for those who require to travel to any station on the Ipswich line. I believe that an all-stations service from each terminus every half-hour (Caboolture, Beenleigh, Cleveland, etc.) should be standard in addition to extra peak services. Perhaps this will cater for Milton passengers?

[Arnz]

Extend the 7:14am Redbank-Nambour train to start at Ipswich. This would provide half-hourly Ipswich-City all stations services during peak, which can accommodate for those who require to travel to any station on the Ipswich line. I believe that an all-stations service from each terminus every half-hour (Caboolture, Beenleigh, Cleveland, etc.) should be standard in addition to extra peak services. Perhaps this will cater for Milton passengers?

Personally I would split the existing Redbank-Nambour service, and make it Ipswich - Bowen Hills and Roma Street - Nambour. 

The 8:01am Nambour service would now form with a fresh train from the yards (like every other Nambour express service).

[justanotheruser]

That is a good point. A quick look at the Passenger Load Survey in March suggests that 477 people get off at Milton on services inbound to the City. (For comparison, 569 people alight at Toowong and 756 at Indooroopilly). Although the express services I have proposed do not cater for this, hopefully, people will be willing to change services at Darra/Toowong. Alternatively, a quick backtrack at Roma St may work, if the express services can be coordinated to connect with Ipswich-bound trains.

Mind you, the only express service that is time-saving for Milton passengers is the 7:58am Redbank-Doomben train. The other two services may as well become all-stations, as they are seriously slow (7:20am Ipswich-City) or overcrowded (6:51am Ipswich-Shorncliffe). One might as well catch an all-stations service.

Which brings me to my next suggestion:

Extend the 7:14am Redbank-Nambour train to start at Ipswich. This would provide half-hourly Ipswich-City all stations services during peak, which can accommodate for those who require to travel to any station on the Ipswich line. I believe that an all-stations service from each terminus every half-hour (Caboolture, Beenleigh, Cleveland, etc.) should be standard in addition to extra peak services. Perhaps this will cater for Milton passengers?

The 6:46am rosewood-Caboolture train also provides a express service for milton skipping five stations which is two more than the ones you mentioned. This is the service I catch. The advantage being is if there is a problem you can catch the next train and still get to work in time (just a bit less time for a cuppa!) It only fills up around darra or with all those blasted Oxley people! (just a joke Mozz 7 Bob! please don't take it seriously)

I do know my wife will catch any old train and change at toowong or Indro if need be to get off at milton.

Onto a seperate point that has nothing to do with your quoted post...
Having express services from ipswich that stop at Indro is important in my opinion considering the two shopping centres and numerous other shops and offices around. I can't remember what has been said about express services but

[Arnz]

Here is my timetable suggestion.  I have rougly standardised the Caboolture/Nambour/Gympie afternoon peak timetable.  Just to summarise.

- All-stops to Petrie, every 15 minutes. (overlayed by 30 min Caboolture all-stoppers, and 30 min Petrie all-stoppers inbetween)
- Express to Caboolture every half-hour between 4pm and 6pm (5 suburban express services)
- Standardise the peak-hour express running patterns for Caboolture and Nambour/Gympie North.

[somebody]

Is it possible to use the siding at the north side of Redbank for stabling electric trains, or is it not wired?

[mufreight]

The sidings at Redbank are wired on one track as access to the Workshops, two of the sidings there are used to refuge coal and grain trains and the remaining sidings are currently used to store container waggons.

[david]

Nice work arnz...you should really go work for QR Passenger! I like how there are several gaps that can easily accommodate for more services in the future, when the new sets arrive.

[STB]

Just to nitpick slightly, you need at least a 4 to 5 minute clearence between trains at Petrie to Caboolture, 3 minutes would still give a red signal, 4 minutes would give a yellow, 5-6 minutes would give a green.  I've done a rough calculation with the run times and it seems that it would pass Petrie approximately 3 minutes before the Caboolture train arrived at Petrie.  Also, you need to show the trains heading back, keep in mind of the need that they need 6 minutes minimum, 8 minutes preferably to turn around at Caboolture/Petrie.

Plus when it goes to single track on the North Coast line, it's single line running, ie: a train cannot be cleared from say Glass House Mountains until the train ahead at Beerwah clears the signal there.

I would be interested in seeing an up timetable to what you've posted, to correspond to the down timetable you've created.

[stephenk]

Going back to the original post, I was under the impression that there will not be any significant timetable changes until early 2010. The next major changes will be to the Ipswich-Caboolture corridor. The lines that use the suburban tracks (e.g Gold Coast, Beenleigh, Ferny Grove) will get a timetable change later in 2010.

[david]

Going back to the original post, I was under the impression that there will not be any significant timetable changes until early 2010. The next major changes will be to the Ipswich-Caboolture corridor. The lines that use the suburban tracks (e.g Gold Coast, Beenleigh, Ferny Grove) will get a timetable change later in 2010.

This is actually true, although I would be expecting the Ipswich-Caboolture-Shorncliffe changes to occur around August 2010 to coincide with the Corinda to Darra upgrade completion. Also, I believe that no extra money has been given to Translink this financial year, so any changes would have to occur after July 2010 (apart from the Varsity Lakes extension). I expect that all services terminating at Corinda will be extended to Darra, as well as a heap of extra services with the Richlands extension in mind (that includes extra long turnaround times - just under 30 minutes if they want to keep the current off-peak pattern).

It would be hard to squeeze any more services on the Beenleigh/Gold Coast/Cleveland lines - probably an upgrade from 3-car to 6-car services is the best they can do. This just shows how desperately the Cross River Rail project is required - needs to be completed 3/4 years earlier (in 2012/2013) imo.

[david]

Here are my suggestions for the Ipswich PM Peak timetable after the Corinda to Darra upgrade is finished. It does rely quite heavily on the third track being present. Also, I have put the Richlands extension in mind when coming up with this timetable, hence the numerous trains terminating at Darra.

[Arnz]

Per request of a few.  Up (Inbound) Caboolture/Nambour timetable.  A few trains' running patterns have been changed around and/or extended.  



I have tried to keep the half-hourly Cab-Ips timers (departing at x:02 and x:32), but it isnt possible for 2 trains due to conflicting movements with the express trains from Nambour and Gympie (5:38am all-stations to Roma Street and 8:10am Roma Street limited express)