Request for timetable improvements.

[ozbob]

Please post serious suggestions for improvement.

Here is an obvious one.

Mon to Friday -  sweeper all stations Central to Redbank.  Depart Central 4.30pm, ahead of the 4.35pm Ipswich.  The 4.35pm service is overloaded most days.  The overload eases around Oxley - Darra. 

Cheers
Bob

[stephenk]

Timetable improvements, where do I start!

Services which should be able to be slotted into existing timetable:-
-Fill in the 21/23min gap between the 06:45 ex Ferny Grove and the 07:06 ex Ferny Grove Exp/ 07:17 ex Mitchelton services.
-Return Ferny Grove expresses to stopping at Enoggera and Gaythorne.
-Fill in 30min service gap on Caboolture Line between 18:06 and 18:36 ex Central services.
-Fill in 38min service gap on Shorncliffe Line 15:51 and 16:29.
-Fill in late night and early Sunday am 1hour service gaps.

Timetable changes that are needed, but will require a major rewrite:-
-Off-peak 15 or 20min service frequency (preferably 15mins)
-Review of express services so that no Ferny Grove Line stations have service gaps of more than 15mins during the peaks. 
-Review of express services on the Cleveland Line so that stations Wynnum Central to Buranda do not experience long service gaps such as the 23min am peak gap.

[Sunbus610]

I'd like to see a couple of AM peak and PM peak rail services that only ran from Northgate through to either Corinda or maybe Park Road stations (and visa-versa), this might assist a little in reducing some of the overcrowding.

[Derwan]

The Shorncliffe line needs an extra morning service to fill in the 26min gap between the 7:23 and 7:49 ex Shorncliffe trains.  Ideally the 7:09 and 7:23 services should then be run several minutes earlier to create better spacing from 6:45 onwards.

I'm with Stephenk on the extra service to fill in the 38min afternoon gap.  (This would be a ridiculous gap in off-peak - let-alone PEAK!)  For me personally, I usually catch the 4:29pm train.  If I need to be home a little early for whatever reason, I have to leave work over half an hour early.

I'm with Sunbus on the ex Northgate trains.  This is something that has been suggested before.  Platform 1 can be used for turnaround.  Trains from Shorncliffe and North Coast lines can be diverted to platform 2 if necessary.  (The Golden Circle siding could also be electrified and used for turnaround if using platform 1 isn't practical.)  A lot of the heavy overcrowding occurs between Northgate and the city.  Having ex Northgate trains during peak would mean other services could run express, reducing travel times and overcrowding.

[Fridge]

The whole of the North Coast line needs changing to reflect the Caboolture to Beerburrum track duplication

[ozbob]

Thanks for all the suggestions folks,  keep them coming!

[david]

Mon to Friday -  sweeper all stations Central to Redbank.  Depart Central 4.30pm, ahead of the 4.35pm Ipswich.  The 4.35pm service is overloaded most days.  The overload eases around Oxley - Darra. 

I'm going to try to be realistic as I realise that there is not an infinite number of crew/trains available at the moment (although that would be lovely...). 

I would actually prefer to see the following
- Bowen Hills to Darra departing Central at 4:26pm
- The 4:35pm service made to run express between Roma Street and Corinda (stopping only at Toowong and Indooroopilly)
- Bowen Hills - Redbank train departing at 4:40pm.

I believe that this would relieve overcrowding on the 4:20, 4:35 and 4:50pm services. Also, the Bowen Hills - Darra train could become a Shorncliffe service that would arrive at Central at 5:31pm (which currently starts at Roma Street), which would remove the large gap (almost 30 mins) between Darra and Roma Street (I often see large crowds of people waiting at Toowong and Milton around 5:20pm).

Also, I would like to see
- 5:13pm Darra train departing Central at 5:09pm (allows the 5:21pm Ipswich "super-express" to arrive at Darra a little faster, rather than slowly moving behind the current Darra train)
- the 5:09pm Ipswich express made into an all-stations service departing at Central 5:17pm (may relieve overcrowding on the 5:27pm train)

I believe that these suggestions can be implemented now, as they do not require that many more staff/trains. I have other suggestions, but I'll save them until Corinda to Darra and Darra to Richlands are open.

[stephenk]

I'm with Sunbus on the ex Northgate trains.  This is something that has been suggested before.  Platform 1 can be used for turnaround.  Trains from Shorncliffe and North Coast lines can be diverted to platform 2 if necessary.  (The Golden Circle siding could also be electrified and used for turnaround if using platform 1 isn't practical.)  A lot of the heavy overcrowding occurs between Northgate and the city.  Having ex Northgate trains during peak would mean other services could run express, reducing travel times and overcrowding.

Wouldn't it be better to kill two birds with one stone, by increasing the frequency of Shorncliffe services, but making them all stations to serve Northgate to Albion? This would make for a much for efficient use of trains, crew, and track capacity. There may be reversing capacity issues on the Shorncliffe line however.

[Emmie]

I would like to see just at least one train from Shorncliffe go beyond Roma Street to Toowong and Corinda during the morning peak hour - at present there are no through services for commuters to University of Queensland or the Wesley Hospital between 6.18 and 8.43 on the Shorncliffe line.

[Derwan]

Wouldn't it be better to kill two birds with one stone, by increasing the frequency of Shorncliffe services, but making them all stations to serve Northgate to Albion?

I'd be happy with that.  Not sure about the residents between Northgate and Bowen Hills though.  I'm sure they'd love the idea of inner-city services that weren't already crowded when they embarked in the morning - or that they didn't have to push through crowds to disembark in the afternoon.

There may be reversing capacity issues on the Shorncliffe line however.

Yes - that may be an issue.  With the single platform at Shorncliffe and duplication no closer than the horizon (2026), the frequency of services is limited.  However they manage a 14-minute gap between the 7:09 and 7:23 services - so there is still room for improvement.

[david]

Just out of interest, does anyone know when the next round of timetable revisions/improvements is due? I would assume that it would be soon because of the opening of Caboolture to Beerburrum and additional rollingstock accumulating at Mayne...

[Arnz]

Word has it that timetable improvements wont be coming till towards the end of the year.

Whilst 2 NCL services had some 'minor' adjustments prior to the opening, other services that were timetabled to wait at Beerburrum and Elimbah are still waiting, when it is no longer necessary.

It's a wait and see I guess.  

[Derwan]

additional rollingstock accumulating at Mayne...

We wish!!  272 was delivered in early March but hasn't been seen in revenue service as yet.  273 was still at Maryborough Station in late April when I was there and hasn't been spotted in Brisbane yet.  270 & 271 were put into service a few weeks ago - so we have one additional 6-car train available.

I can't see a major overhaul of the timetable occurring before 2010.  We'll hopefully see a few additional services added in the mean time though.

[stephenk]

Wouldn't it be better to kill two birds with one stone, by increasing the frequency of Shorncliffe services, but making them all stations to serve Northgate to Albion?

I'd be happy with that.  Not sure about the residents between Northgate and Bowen Hills though.  I'm sure they'd love the idea of inner-city services that weren't already crowded when they embarked in the morning - or that they didn't have to push through crowds to disembark in the afternoon.

Unfortunately, if you live closer to the city then you have to expect to stand. However, they should also expect to be able to actually board a train which from reports isn't always possible. I would doubt that trains starting at Northgate would be an effective use of track capacity. There are under-utilised trains during the peaks, notably on the Airport and Doomben Lines, we don't need any more track capacity wasted.

There may be reversing capacity issues on the Shorncliffe line however.

Yes - that may be an issue.  With the single platform at Shorncliffe and duplication no closer than the horizon (2026), the frequency of services is limited.  However they manage a 14-minute gap between the 7:09 and 7:23 services - so there is still room for improvement.
[/quote]

Interestingly the Inner City Rail Capacity Study recommends a duplication by between Sandgate and Shorncliffe by 2014. Not that the Queensland Government seem to be acting upon any recommendations in the plan.

There are also two evening services that arrive at Shorncliffe 10mins apart, and although not ideal it is possible to reverse trains at Sandgate as well as Shorncliffe.


Just an idea for Northern Lines peak service patterns:

Suburban Lines based on 20tph/3min frequency through core section.
Ferny Grove (limited express) 4tph/15mins
Mitchelton/Keperra (all stations) 4tph/15mins
Airport (express to Eagle Junction) 4tph/15mins
Shorncliffe (all stations) 4tph/15mins
Doomben (all stations) 2tph/30mins
Free slots/Bowen Hills reversers 2tph/30mins

Main Lines based on 13tph/4.5min (average) frequency through core section
Petrie (all stations) 9mins*
Caboolture (express to Petrie) 9mins (of which Nambour may be every 27mins)

* yes, I know QR like 8 mins dwell time to reverse a train, but if Metro de Santiago can reverse a train in 20secs, the QR can try harder!

I have other timetable ideas based on other service patterns.

[stephenk]

...or

Suburban Lines based around 20tph/3min frequency
Ferny Grove (all stations) 6.7tph/9mins*
Airport (express to Eagle Jn) 3.3tph/18mins (ooh, controversial!)
Shorncliffe (all stations) 3.3tph/18mins
Sandgate (all stations) 3.3tph/18mins
Doomben (all stations) 1.6tph/36mins
Spare slot/Bowen Hills reverser 1.6tph36mins

*this would be at lines maximum theoretical capacity!

Main Lines as per my previous post, except all Petrie services express to Northgate (as Northgate to Albion now has 9 min frequency)

[ozbob]

Thanks for all the excellent suggestions, keep them coming!

Members please note --> http://backontrack.org/mbs/index.php?topic=2351.0

Cheers
Bob

[brad C]

In proposing such frequencies, one must be cognisant of other factors which can impact upon track utilisation and stopping patterns.

Firstly, there are the regular long distance services (the 1700hrs tilt train service to Bundaberg and the 1736 Gympie North service and the necessary headways required to enable their express run to their first stop - Caboolture). What to do with these servoces in any major timetable review is a dilemma because they are a necessary evil.
In addition, there are the regular freight services (some contract services that can ill afford to be refuged for up to an hour) traversing both the up and down mains.

Secondly, and this is where the proposed times faulter, the timetable is geared to CBD workers. There are large amounts of current and future employees and students based in areas such as Toombul, Sunshine, Geebung, Zillmere and Strathpine who are entitled to a direct trip home to destinations north of Petrie without having to change trains. This is why it is important to intersperse all stoppers with express services to Caboolture to provide equitable access for these fare paying passengers.

Years ago (22) there was a 1644hrs diesel hauled service to Sandgate (all stopper) with a couple of longer haul Shorncliffe expresses following. This is when two platforms successfully operated at Sandgate.

Thirdly, the origin of these additional services must be considered. Will these be through services from southern and western terminii or from the stabling area at Mayne with the resultant congestion through Normanby? Already there are problems feeding platforms 7 and 8 at Roma St from Mayne originated services and the delicate manoevres to cross against westward bound services from Platform 8. This is an imporatnt and sometimes forgotten factor in kickstarting services.

Sorry that I will be branded Negative but timetabling is an holistic exercise.
A weekend workshop involving RBOT members would prove fruitful. 

[stephenk]

In proposing such frequencies, one must be cognisant of other factors which can impact upon track utilisation and stopping patterns.

Firstly, there are the regular long distance services (the 1700hrs tilt train service to Bundaberg and the 1736 Gympie North service and the necessary headways required to enable their express run to their first stop - Caboolture). What to do with these servoces in any major timetable review is a dilemma because they are a necessary evil.
In addition, there are the regular freight services (some contract services that can ill afford to be refuged for up to an hour) traversing both the up and down mains.

Secondly, and this is where the proposed times faulter, the timetable is geared to CBD workers. There are large amounts of current and future employees and students based in areas such as Toombul, Sunshine, Geebung, Zillmere and Strathpine who are entitled to a direct trip home to destinations north of Petrie without having to change trains. This is why it is important to intersperse all stoppers with express services to Caboolture to provide equitable access for these fare paying passengers.

Years ago (22) there was a 1644hrs diesel hauled service to Sandgate (all stopper) with a couple of longer haul Shorncliffe expresses following. This is when two platforms successfully operated at Sandgate.

Thirdly, the origin of these additional services must be considered. Will these be through services from southern and western terminii or from the stabling area at Mayne with the resultant congestion through Normanby? Already there are problems feeding platforms 7 and 8 at Roma St from Mayne originated services and the delicate manoevres to cross against westward bound services from Platform 8. This is an imporatnt and sometimes forgotten factor in kickstarting services.

Sorry that I will be branded Negative but timetabling is an holistic exercise.
A weekend workshop involving RBOT members would prove fruitful. 

Thanks for your feedback. My ideas are simply ideas to evoke discussion and further thought on timetabling, not a solution to all problems.

That Tllt train service does throw a spanner in the works somewhat!

As far as the Gympie and North Coast services are concerned - if track infrastructure is not improved, then the only option to improve line capacity will be to reduce the number of service patterns. (I'm pretty sure this was suggested in the Inner City Rail Capacity Study). The knock on effect of this will be an increased journey time for those living further out as some expresses will have to be a bit less express.  The most efficient use of track capacity vs journey time is the skip stop service - where two service patterns alternate. One service stops at even stations, the following train stops at odd stations. Both services will stop every so often at more major stations, to allow passengers to change between services. However the skip stop services are pretty useless for people travelling 1,3, or sometimes 5 stops! Skip stop services are used on NYC Subway, Washington DC Metro, and Santiago Metro.

Concerning passengers travelling from stations between Northgate and Petrie to stations north of Petrie. If  alternating Caboolture expresses and all stations to Petrie services are run at frequent enough intervals, then the overall journey time may well be less than the existing service pattern even if the passengers do have to change trains. Yes a direct service would be nice, but you have to factor in how long passengers may have to wait for it!

Concerning the origin of these services. My ideas were assuming that very few peak hour services are starting and finishing at Roma Street and Bowen Hills as at present. These services would originate from Mayne during the shoulder peak period, and reverse at the quoted terminus to form the peak service. This would almost completely eliminate conflicting movements at Roma Street during the busiest part of the peaks. Combined with an increase in off peak services, thus would also further reduce the number of conflicting movements at Roma Street as less trains have to enter/exit service at Roma Street. The downside would be an increase in the requirements for train crew as the effective peak period would be longer. Trains would also be in service during the peaks for longer hours. This plan would be most effective if stabling was increased further out, at locations such as Thorneside and Caboolture.

[DBL]

Thanks for all the excellent suggestions, keep them coming!

Cheers
Bob

Bob, It would be good if it could be suggested to QR timetabling that an improvement is needed to overcome the poor frequency of AM peak hour services to the City from stations between Salisbury and Moorooka between 7.30 and 8.15am.  At present the timetable is:

Salisbury 7.36am  6 car set from Beenleigh so is usually crowded
18" gap
Salisbury 7.54am  3 car set from Kuraby and usually becomes crowded after Moorooka
22" gap
Salisbury 8.16am  3 car set from Kuraby and usually becomes crowded after Moorooka

Having an 18 minute gap followed by a 22 minute gap in the peak hour and then only using 3 car sets is a bad timetable and rostering arrangement.  The gaps in peak hour need to be around 15 minutes or less, particularly if 3 car sets are going to be used.  When there are train delays these gaps are then exascerbated and the 3 car sets become packed like sardines.

[stephenk]

Having an 18 minute gap followed by a 22 minute gap in the peak hour and then only using 3 car sets is a bad timetable and rostering arrangement.  The gaps in peak hour need to be around 15 minutes or less, particularly if 3 car sets are going to be used.  When there are train delays these gaps are then exascerbated and the 3 car sets become packed like sardines.

I agree, on the major lines there should be no gaps longer than 15mins during the peaks.

[david]

I went home on the 5:21pm Ipswich express train (express Roma St to Redbank except Darra), and we made it to Darra in record time today - at 5:36pm. The train is actually scheduled to arrive at 5:43pm, which resulted in a 7 minute wait at Darra today. QR needs to get rid of the fat that has been added to this service, along with other Ipswich (mostly AM peak services) and Gold Coast services.

Also, this express pattern seems to be fairly popular. There was still a fairly full seated load departing Darra. Perhaps a couple more of this express pattern could be introduced in the near future?