Article: TransLink fines uni student $200 for 64c fare evasion

[ozbob]

From the Courier Mail click here!

TransLink fines uni student $200 for 64c fare evasion

TransLink fines uni student $200 for 64c fare evasion
Article from: The Courier-Mail

James Brindley

February 20, 2009 02:45pm

TRANSLINK has slapped a Brisbane university student with a $200 fine for letting his go card run just 64c over the limit.
The male passenger, who wants to remain anonymous, was fined yesterday afternoon when he 'touched off' at Roma Street station with a go card which was 64c in the red

"The security guard made a crack that he?ll have to fine me $200 for no reason and we had a laugh about that,? the male passenger said.

"Then he looked at the readout and said ?I shouldn?t have made that joke, I am going to have to fine you?."

The passenger contacted TransLink today to make a complaint but was told he'd be fined, no matter how little he owed.

He said he understood the security guard was only doing his job, and had only positive experiences with Queensland Rail before.

"64c is absolutely miniscule,? he said.

"If TransLink is worried about that, they?re just trying to make money.?

TransLink has refused to make comment about the fine.

My blog comment:

Hello, when you get a go card you pay a deposit, to guard against such occurrences.  This is an outrage!!

From the Translink web site below.  Please tell the poor student to contact a lawyer and sue TransLink for harassment  ...

http://www.transinfo.qld.gov.au/qt/transLin.nsf/Index/go#fees

*** go card fees

Before you start using your go card, you will need to top up your card and pay a refundable deposit. This deposit is like a safety net which allows you to finish your journey even if you have insufficient funds on the card (as long as your balance is positive at the start of your journey). ***

[Derwan]

My Blog comment:

The security guard is incorrect.  The refundable deposit for the Go Card is designed for this scenario - and it is legitimate for the card to go into a negative balance.  You just can't commence a journey if your card is in the red.

For negative balances, the Go Card User Guide simply indicates, "You will need to top up your card before your next journey."

[ozbob]

I have contacted QR direct over this.  This is GOing to do a lot of damage to the Go card unless it is clarified and corrected ASAP.

Shambles ....

[ozbob]

Media Release 20 February 2009

SEQ:  Easy come, easy go, easy fines?

RAIL Back On Track (http://backontrack.org) a web based community support group for rail and public transport and an advocate for public transport commuters has called for urgent clarification of the conditions of use of the Go card following the publication of a story on the Courier Mail website concerning a Go card user who was fined $200 for accruing a debit of sixty-four cents when touching off at Roma St station (1). TransLink Go card instructions clearly indicate that this situation is permitted and is why the deposit is collected for each Go card in use.

Robert Dow, Spokesman for RAIL Back On Track said:

"The TransLink web site states that 'before you start using your go card, you will need to top up your card and pay a refundable deposit. This deposit is like a safety net which allows you to finish your journey even if you have insufficient funds on the card (as long as your balance is positive at the start of your journey)' (2).

"Why was the Go card user issued with a $200 fine?  If the circumstances are as described in the news story (1) then this is a gross error."

"The feedback on the blog to the Courier Mail news story has been disturbing.  It would seem that the Go card has lost a lot of credibility with many users.  They are now very distrustful and will probably be reluctant to use the Go card, as many people are scared witless they will cop $200 fines for situations beyond their control."

"This incident begs the obvious question,  'How many more innocent users have been fined for both system errors and when they have been using the Go card as described in the user guide?'

"It is imperative that the Minister for Transport or a TransLink representative clarify the circumstances surrounding this fine urgently and issue an apology to the Go card user as appropriate.  The reputation of the Go card ticketing system is at stake!"

References:

1.   http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,25082489-952,00.html

2.   http://www.transinfo.qld.gov.au/qt/transLin.nsf/Index/go#fees

Contact:

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org

[Otto]

So far this year, I have had 7 passengers board a service I was driving (bus) and on touch on, My screen shows 'no value'.
I explained to the passengers that their GoCard had no funds for the journey. About 5 passengers said they had topped up online earlier in the day and so expected no issues. I informed them it may take up to 24 hours for the top up to be processed to their GoCard account and the reply is that they had no message or seen any hint on the GoCard site about top ups taking some time to process.

I think this problem needs to be rectified somehow, maybe a message to pop up immediatly after topping up online to alert passengers about this situation.

[ozbob]

Further update on the Courier Mail article click here!

TransLink fines uni student $200 for 64c fare evasion

TransLink fines uni student $200 for 64c fare evasion
Article from: The Courier-Mail

James Brindley

February 20, 2009 04:25pm

TRANSLINK is investigating the case of a university student who may have been wrongfully fined $200 for letting his go card run just 64c into the red.

The male passenger, 22, who wants to remain anonymous, was fined yesterday afternoon when he 'touched off' at Roma Street station with a go card which was 64c in the red.

A TransLink spokesman said he was still awaiting specific details of the case but he should not have been fined if he started the journey in the black.

He said the case was being investigated.

"If there was a balance on the card at the start of the journey, he'll be all right," the spokesman said.

The passenger complained to TransLink this morning but was told he'd be fined, no matter how little he owed.

"The security guard made a crack that he?ll have to fine me $200 for no reason and we had a laugh about that,? he said.

"Then he looked at the readout and said ?I shouldn?t have made that joke, I am going to have to fine you?."

He said he understood the security guard was only doing his job, and had only positive experiences with Queensland Rail before.

"Sixty-four cents is absolutely minuscule,? he said.

"If TransLink is worried about that, they?re just trying to make money.?

[wbj]

There's either more to the story than reported in the media or it is a complete stuff up by the ticket collector.  Translink should do themselves a favour and resolve this quickly and publicise that they have done so.

BTW, I think it is entirely unacceptable for a top up on Go Card to take up to 24 hours to be updated.  I can't remember this happening to me on a train so maybe it's restricted to buses.

[stephenk]

Assuming that there is nothing more to this story, then the person in question has done nothing wrong as the journey was started with a positive balance. I regularly went into the red with my Oyster Card in London, it just won't let you start the next journey until you've topped up!

The "security officer" (was it a Transit Officer?) really should have known better. This is another example of how Brisbane has badly implemented something that was well implemented in London and Hong Kong. I'm in absolutely no rush to get a Go Card!

[ozbob]

Yes, it will be interesting to see if the true facts surface.

I think the blog comments on the article at the C-M are interesting.  The comments built very rapidly once the story was published and perhaps suggests an underlying current of dissatisfaction with matters Go and TransLink to some extent. 

The Go card in the hand of competent users is generally fine, but many people do struggle with it at times.  It is a fact that all the problems are forced onto the user and user is left with little recourse - a recurring theme in many of the blog comments. The process of attempting to sort out issues is cumbersome and inefficient.  One small error leaves a user potentially exposed to significant fines e.g. forgetting to touch on.  Something that will happen from time to time.  One of the reasons why I like the gates, you have to touch to get them open. 

This story has set back the Go card and has probably nullified to some extent the recent advertising campaigns.  It will spread rapidly on the social network systems, and many uni students would already be aware of the story. 

Even if it turns out the user was in fact in error the damage has been done, and that damage is considerable I would suggest.

As we called for in the media release, it needs a clear explanation of what has actually happened, and a strong reinforcement from the Minister and/or TransLink that users will NOT be fined should they touch on and go negative on a touch off !

[Emmie]

I also wound up with a negative balance at the Roma St bus station yesterday, and I wonder whether this student may have had the same problem.  I use GO all the time now, but I hadn't previously transferred from a train to a bus at Roma St.  You touch off as you leave the train platforms, then climb the stairs to the bus platform and there is a GO card reader - so I touched on.  But then when the bus arrived and I got in, I automatically touched on again - and consequently copped a $5.00 fine, before being charged for the fare to Mater Hill as well.  Fortunately I had just enough on the ticket to touch on to the bus coming back from Mater Hill, AS BUS STATIONS DO NOT HAVE FACILITIES FOR TOPPING UP GO CARDS - GRRR - but I was well below my limit by the time I reached Sandgate, where I topped up.

The IRONY is that I could have made the whole journey on an off-peak paper ticket for $5.70.

Transaction details below:

20-Feb-09 01:52:58 PM Top Up Sandgate 50.00   
20-Feb-09 01:51:32 PM Touch Off Sandgate -1.12 * 
20-Feb-09 01:10:42 PM Touch On Transfer Roma Street     
20-Feb-09 01:10:01 PM Touch Off Roma St Bus Station (SEB IB Services) [BT010794] -1.92 * 
20-Feb-09 01:02:35 PM Touch On 'Mater Hill' Busway Station [BT010808]     
20-Feb-09 11:35:46 AM Touch Off 'Mater Hill' Busway Station [BT010809] -1.92 * 
20-Feb-09 11:26:17 AM Touch On Roma St Bus Station Platform 2 [BT010792]     
20-Feb-09 11:26:17 AM Touch Off Roma St Bus Station Platform 2 [BT010792] -5.00 * 
20-Feb-09 11:25:51 AM Touch On Transfer Roma Street     
20-Feb-09 11:25:07 AM Touch Off Roma Street -3.04 * 
20-Feb-09 10:42:04 AM Touch On Sandgate

[ozbob]

Thanks for sharing your experience Emmie. 

Those readers on platform 2 Roma St are traps.  They are only meant to be used by terminating/departing Citytrain passengers should they use platform 2 for a service (not yet used).  As platform 2 is outside the main Roma St Go cordon.  They should put signs on them that clearly indicate these are only for the use of passengers arriving or departing from a Citytrain service on platform 2. 

[ozbob]

I have contacted QR with the following message:

Greetings,

Can some signs please be put on the go card reader/s on platform 2 Roma St  that indicate the readers are only to be used by Citytrain passengers arriving or departing from platform 2, NOT TO BE USED FOR BUS TRAVEL. These readers are necessary should a Citytrain arrive/depart from platform 2 as it outside the Go card cordon, but many bus people get confused and cop a fixed fare fine as a result should they touch on them.

See here for an example -->  http://backontrack.org/mbs/index.php?topic=1901.msg9017#msg9017

Thanks.

Regards
Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
RAIL Back On Track

[STB]

Ok, just some quick comments on the article from my point of view...

It is true that you can travel into a negative as long as you are in a positive when you touch on in the first place, and based on the article alone, it appears that may have happened, and in that case the TO is mistaken.  I guess one way to fix that from happening is to stop a user to being able to touch on if the balance on the card is less than the minimal fare, ie: you can't touch on if your card has less than $1.92, so you may still have a positive balance but if you have less than $1.92 you must top up before continuing.  Also training can be a big help for the TOs, and I do feel for the TOs as the system is still relatively new and everyone, both staff and passengers are still learning how it works correctly.

Of course you shouldn't always believe what you read, and the media is a good example of this.  The media are only interested in one thing, making money, and they can do that by overstating facts or taking out key information about the actual story to make it sound more readable and unbelievable as that attracts people to buy the paper, and this is for all stories not just transport of course.

BTW, I think it is entirely unacceptable for a top up on Go Card to take up to 24 hours to be updated.  I can't remember this happening to me on a train so maybe it's restricted to buses.

Incorrect, the balance is topped up then and there on the bus just as you can do so at train stations.  I presume you're mistaking the bus to doing it via the web?

[wbj]

Incorrect, the balance is topped up then and there on the bus just as you can do so at train stations.  I presume you're mistaking the bus to doing it via the web?

My comment was related to Otto's earlier comments.  And my comment about unacceptability of a possible 24 hour delay (in fact possibly up to 48 hours advised on the Translink web ticketing site) being an unacceptable lag time in this day and age applies to web ticketing.  Where is the increased efficiency for Translink and customers if they have to spend as much or more time at a railway station ticket machine or on a bus topping up their go card compared to buying a conventional paper ticket? 

Go Cards are only minimally more economical for most commuters, surely Translink should be making it as convenient as possible to make it a more attractive package compared with the paper ticket.  Speedy web ticketing should be a benefit to both Translink and the customer without the potential hassle if you end up traveling before the system has processed your payment.

[STB]

This is not unusual and occurs in other smartcard systems, including Perth's where they warn you in bold that it can take up to 48 hours for the top up amount to appear on your account, this is not due to TransLink, it's due to the banks and the processes they must do to move that debit from your account to your smartcard's account.  And this is with any purchase you do when you do it this way.  My money to pay for my new monitor for example took 24 hours to appear in the company's account, when I paid via the bank.  It's only when you pay the company directly, and in this case it would be via a ticket machine for example that the top up occurs straight away.

And don't forget, no one is hiding the fact that it can take this long, if you need to top it up in this manner make sure you do it before you know your Go Card balance will run out, ie: don't do it on the day that you'll have a negative balance on the day.

[Derwan]

My comment was related to Otto's earlier comments.  And my comment about unacceptability of a possible 24 hour delay (in fact possibly up to 48 hours advised on the Translink web ticketing site) being an unacceptable lag time in this day and age applies to web ticketing. 

The value is stored on the card.  If you top-up online, the additional value has to be downloaded to the card.  To do this, the machine you touch has to know that the additional value is to be added.  My understanding is that because bus systems are not in constant contact with the network, they have to wait until they connected to the network when they return to the depot - at which point they will receive information about top-ups and pass on the day's transactions so that they display online for card holders.

If you're worried about running too low, just top-up when the value goes below $20.  This will ensure the additional value is added in time.

Train system are constantly connected to the network, which is why the top-up is applied more quickly.  However in my experience, it can still take a few hours.

[STB]

And that too ...ta Derwan, I'm thinking into the post too deeply  .

[ozbob]

Back to the original article.  Still no follow up at the C-M or an explanation from TTA or the Minister. 

Q:  How long does it take to check a go card history?

A:  uummmm,  30 seconds  or so ...

[ozbob]

It takes about 30 seconds to check a go card history.

Why no follow up to this story?  Many go card users are concerned about this issue and would like to know the outcome thanks.

http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/comments/0,,25082489-952,00.html

[ozbob]

There are a number of possible situations, all wild speculation of course!

1.  The student touched on normally (albeit with a small credit balance), completed his journey to Roma St, touched off and went negative. This is NOT fare evasion.

2.  The student failed to touch on and was caught with a card already negative 64 cents.  This is technically fare evasion.

3.  The student attempted to touch on, but because the card was negative it was rejected.  He travelled in a non-touched state.  This is technically fare evasion.

4.  The student was unable to touch on at origin station due to faulty equipment, the AVVM was out of order and the station was not staffed, and he was not aware of his balance, and became confused.  Under these circumstances he could have reverse ticketed.

It would be nice to know what actually happened ...

A quick check of the cards transaction history would confirm the correct situation.

[bnetrans]

There are a number of possible situations, all wild speculation of course!

1.  The student touched on normally (albeit with a small credit balance), completed his journey to Roma St, touched off and went negative. This is NOT fare evasion.

This is what appears to have happened from what is in the report, however, as ozbob has said, the information provided thus far does not exclude the possibility of one of the below being what actually happened.

2.  The student failed to touch on and was caught with a card already negative 64 cents.  This is technically fare evasion.

3.  The student attempted to touch on, but because the card was negative it was rejected.  He travelled in a non-touched state.  This is technically fare evasion.

(2) and (3) are basically identical - the person did not touch on.  Even if they tried (3) it would have been unsuccessful because of a negative balance.

4.  The student was unable to touch on at origin station due to faulty equipment, the AVVM was out of order and the station was not staffed, and he was not aware of his balance, and became confused.  Under these circumstances he could have reverse ticketed.

It would be nice to know what actually happened ...

Agreed.

[bnetrans]

1.  The student touched on normally (albeit with a small credit balance), completed his journey

(or his trip)

to Roma St, touched off

What type of GO Card reader is used at Roma St?

Is it (directional) fare gates, like those used at Central (Edward St / Creek St exits), or is it a normal Touch On / Touch Off card reader like in the suburban stations?

[ozbob]

Directional fare gates at Roma St (there are some readers like the suburban stations on platform 2, but these are not used).  What has me intrigued is why did the TTO choose to read his card?  If he touched off successfully there would be no real reason, other than the warning beeps.  The gate would open OK.  If it was the other situations the gate would not open. 

There is also wide gate for paper tickets and go cards, this is open (the gates are not closed, similar to Central on the main gates).  He may have gone through this gate and red lighted which caused the TTO to check his card.

[ozbob]

In the absence of any further clarifying information my hunch is that it was a case of situation 2 or 3.  There are privacy considerations so we are not likely to hear anything.   It would be good if the punters were told that it is OK to go negative after a legitimate touch on and touch off which ends in a negative balance, and at that point you cannot re-touch on till the card is back into credit.

[ozbob]

From the City News 26th February 2009 page 3

Go card patron fine remains despite protest

[ozbob]

Good that the issue has been clarified.  Thanks City News and TransLink.

[wbj]

So, did the student lie to the reporter or did the reporter not ask the right questions?  Surely not sensationalised for a cheap shot at public transport!?

[ozbob]

I think a bit of both wbj. 

At least it highlighted the fact the users can go negative on a touch off and this is ok providing they have touched on normally (the reason for the deposit).