Intercapital Sleeper Train

[minbrisbane]

Hi All,

I've been watching the recent developments and improvements occurring in Europe regarding sleeper trains and their renaissance.  It bothers me that this isn't something that appears to be on the radar here, a news article here and there, but nothing significant.  I can see that with flights becoming more and more expensive and certainty around schedules also not being very good of late, and with the impending withdrawal of the XPT sleepers - I feel there's a potential gap. 

Basically, I'd be curious to get some kind of thought on what would be required to get something like this off the ground here in Australia, apartfrom a bucket load of cash.  Perhaps the biggest hurdle I forsee is the lack of available legacy rolling stock here, which is available in Europe for lease via various means (i.e. what European sleeper has done). 

I know this seems like a foamer pie in the sky thought, but I do think it could be successful. 

[ozbob]

Agree Jon.  My last sleeper train journey was the Westlander to Charleville, and return 2012.  Sadly, the sleepers on that train are now no longer.

I travelled a lot on sleepers in the 1960s and 70s particularly.  The Southern Aurora, the Brisbane Limited, the Sunlander, and The Overland. It was a very enjoyable way to travel. A lot more relaxing than flying, albeit slower.  There were dining facilities on the trains as well, so it was a complete package.

Having a breakfast in the diner as the Brisbane Limited traversed the border loop as dawn arrived was always special.

Various heritage groups particularly in Victoria and NSW do have sleeper carriages available, and use them on special trips from time to time. The Southern Aurora carriages still exist and are used occasionally  for tours. 

I guess to get regular overnight sleepers would require new rollingstock. I am not sure if the old sleeper carriages would stand up to constant use. Locomotives would not be an issue.

Who knows, with the ongoing disquiet with the airlines, intercapital rail travel may well become attractive once more.  It is not about time it takes so much, it is really about the journey and arriving fresh in the new city after a relaxing overnight journey.

[ozbob]

The way it was ...

1950 The Overland Promotional Film, State Transport Authority Collection

[timh]

Id love a sleeper option to get to Sydney. I think yes rollingstock is a big one (there's something like 4 XPT trains in the whole country, and each only has 1 sleeper car).

There is currently one sleeper journey Syd-Mel per day via XPT afaik. That would be a good corridor to try and boost first.

Definitely some more rollingstock and upgrades to some of the horrendously slow steam train alignments out in the country would be a big benefit. If you build those newer sections to faster rail standards (ie aim for higher track speeds) you can then use those same alignments to run fast/high speed intercity services in the decades in the future.

[minbrisbane]

My thought would be that the sleeper service could be introduced on the existing alignments without much change to infrastructure.  This could then fuel political will for more improvements to daytime service, i.e. faster alignments, modern rolling stock

[HappyTrainGuy]

Catch 22. People prefer a fast trip. People prefer a slower trip to enjoy the scenery. Slower trip means food car. Longer trip means food car. Staffing costs. Now you need frequency for short haul and less frequency for long haul etc etc etc. Governments can't afford everything so they make do with what they have. Take the newest DTT. That was supposed to be a sleeper consist but to save costs and speed up transit times (didn't require additional platform lengths, didn't require additional carriages, didn't require reversing at platforms and the rail beds were cheaper etc) we got what we have today.

[minbrisbane]

I guess but for me, speed isn't too important for a night train, as you're sleeping maybe 75% of the trip.  A 'day' train that is not marketed as a sleeper, absolutely must be quicker than the current times. 

I'd envisage this hypothetical train looking like the new OBB nightjet (single capsule style berths, 2nd class accommodation (2/3 berths per cabin no ensuite) and 1st class (w/ensuite) and 1 x seated coach (1+2 layout with a decent recline) with a buffet/almost restaurant like the the Scandinavian overnight trains have.

If this hypothetical service is to be successful it's got to be excellent - nothing like the current overnight offering.   This possibly would not have to be government-led.  look at the success of crowdfunding e.g. European sleeper they raised 500,000 EUR in less than 15 minutes. 

[#Metro]

Night trains don't require new infrastructure in the main, so it's a matter of getting the necessary carriages and staff. The track is already there. It is just a bit slow, slower than the night bus option IIRC.

Getting the right customer mix is super important. Apparently, the Austrian OBB service is strongly supported by their premium service. Which is not unlike what airlines do - the money comes from the business class passengers.

Business Model of Night Trains

[HappyTrainGuy]

But that's the thing. A night train isn't helpful for those at intermediate stops where the train arrives or departs at 3am. And there isn't the patronage to drive upgrading the line because of the arrival time.

Also you can't compare the Australian network to European networks. We don't have the density and most of Europe can fit inside Australia.

[#Metro]

Sydney-Melbourne railway could be affordably upgraded to slash travel times to six hours, expert says
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2022/dec/15/sydney-melbourne-rail-track-upgrade-is-cheaper-quicker-way-to-slash-journey-times-says-expert

The Sydney to Melbourne train journey could be slashed from 11 hours down to just six, and at a fraction of the cost of high-speed rail plans, if sections of the track were upgraded for medium-speed rail, a train expert says.

A few extra train services alone would not justify infrastructure spend, but there might be other reasons that could. All the attention has been soaked up by HSR, and MSR/Laird's proposal for MSR incremental improvement would be worth looking into.

Six hours is similar to what a night's sleep is. Could leave at say 10 pm get to the other city about 4 am. There are already sleeper cars on the service between Melbourne and Sydney. These become 'Daysitters' during the daytime (with the bed locked into the wall so you cannot use it then).

The main problem with services like the XPT is its age. There is no Wi-Fi on board because Wi-Fi didn't exist (1997) when the train was introduced (1982). And you cannot rely on your mobile phone either as coverage is mostly not there. Potential option is to look into getting StarLink internet or something like that. It's hard to envisage a premium service with no internet/entertainment options for 12 hours...

[minbrisbane]

But that's the thing. A night train isn't helpful for those at intermediate stops where the train arrives or departs at 3am. And there isn't the patronage to drive upgrading the line because of the arrival time.

Also you can't compare the Australian network to European networks. We don't have the density and most of Europe can fit inside Australia.

Partially true, but if you look at the demand for travel it's still relatively low for places like Cootamundra, Junee etc.  Sure those places should have access to a rail service, that's what NSW Trainlink is for.  This sleeper idea would be express through those places.  If we can run flights almost half hourly between the capitals, surely a nightly sleeper train that doesn't need to be a high speed train can fill a gap that I feel is missing = no hotel required, no early morning flight to make your morning commitments. 

[minbrisbane]

Sydney-Melbourne railway could be affordably upgraded to slash travel times to six hours, expert says
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2022/dec/15/sydney-melbourne-rail-track-upgrade-is-cheaper-quicker-way-to-slash-journey-times-says-expert

The Sydney to Melbourne train journey could be slashed from 11 hours down to just six, and at a fraction of the cost of high-speed rail plans, if sections of the track were upgraded for medium-speed rail, a train expert says.

A few extra train services alone would not justify infrastructure spend, but there might be other reasons that could. All the attention has been soaked up by HSR, and MSR/Laird's proposal for MSR incremental improvement would be worth looking into.

Six hours is similar to what a night's sleep is. Could leave at say 10 pm get to the other city about 4 am. There are already sleeper cars on the service between Melbourne and Sydney. These become 'Daysitters' during the daytime (with the bed locked into the wall so you cannot use it then).

The main problem with services like the XPT is its age. There is no Wi-Fi on board because Wi-Fi didn't exist (1997) when the train was introduced (1982). And you cannot rely on your mobile phone either as coverage is mostly not there. Potential option is to look into getting StarLink internet or something like that. It's hard to envisage a premium service with no internet/entertainment options for 12 hours...

Incremental upgrades to the railway I think is more achievable than full HSR sadly.  It maybe bite sized enough to capture the required political will (short construction time etc).  But again, sleeper trains don't need to be fast - just need to be timed correctly.

Part of The XPT's issue re connectivity is the tint on the windows, this blocks a great deal of mobile signal and completely blocks GPS apparently. 

Obviously if this was to be a premium service, which it would need to be there would have to be a way to access the internet via Wifi to stay connected during the run - even if most of the users would be asleep 80% of the time.

[HappyTrainGuy]

But that's the thing. A night train isn't helpful for those at intermediate stops where the train arrives or departs at 3am. And there isn't the patronage to drive upgrading the line because of the arrival time.

Also you can't compare the Australian network to European networks. We don't have the density and most of Europe can fit inside Australia.

Partially true, but if you look at the demand for travel it's still relatively low for places like Cootamundra, Junee etc.  Sure those places should have access to a rail service, that's what NSW Trainlink is for.  This sleeper idea would be express through those places.  If we can run flights almost half hourly between the capitals, surely a nightly sleeper train that doesn't need to be a high speed train can fill a gap that I feel is missing = no hotel required, no early morning flight to make your morning commitments. 

But now you have rollingstock issues and additional crew issues. You need more. And just how much time are you really saving by making them express past them if you have to stop somewhere due to a red signal which is common on the nsw line.

The railways and airlines are two different modes. Can't compare them. Rollingstock costs. Infrastructure costs (loops/double track/platforms/stabling). Crew costs (mtce facilities, onboard crews, station staff).

Private companies only run the most profitable routes where the demand is. Railways don't work the same.

[JimmyP]

The point of having a sleeper train MEL-SYD, SYD-BNE would be for intercity travel, not regional. Board the train in the evening in one capital city, arrive next morning after a good night sleep and breakfast in the other capital. Trains would stop and start as required for network reasons, but not much need to stop for passengers very often (due to the poor arrival/departure times).
Regional trains would be there to cater for regional type travel.

[HappyTrainGuy]

But the demand isn't there for inter capital. Most of the patronage is regional.

[ozbob]

My experience travelling on the sleepers is that they did stop at major towns on along the way.  Passengers joined and left the train in varying numbers.  Bulk of the passengers were through, but they always had a sitting car or two.  Sydney <> Melbourne is the 5th busiest air route in the world.  I am certain that if there were decent overnight trains they would be used.  A lot of people are getting really p%ssed  off with airports, dodgy airlines etc.

Brief look at the Brisbane Limited at Strathfield.

[ozbob]

Vintage Australian railway film - All manner of trains - 1962

An overview of Australia's railways in the early 1960s, before gauges across the country were standardised. From Cairns to Brisbane on the Sunlander, to Sydney on the Brisbane Limited then the Daylight Express to the border and the Spirit of Progress we make our way to Melbourne. We then board the Overland to Adelaide, followed by the Port Pirie Express and the Transcontinental to Kalgoorlie, before boarding the Westland for Perth. The second section looks at other significant lines and services whilst stressing the importance of the rail network to Australia's rural areas and to the nation's progress. Made by The Commonwealth Film Unit, 1962.

[#Metro]

It probably would cost more but you can also charge more. Cost would be limited to getting the appropriate trains / carriages.

You need to get new trains anyway (current ones are 40+ years old), plus there are so few services daily you would not need many new trains either.

PLUS the service is subsidised heavily as well, less need to run commercially as EU trains might, a better service, newer train, Wifi could charge more. I'm not even sure the XPT had aircon, I don't think it did.

It's a coverage service, numbers have to stack up, but not to the same standards as a commercial business.

The baggage is also a bit restrictive. You have to check luggage in 30 min before departure, this could be changed to be optional.

Would be a low or no infrastructure incremental improvement.

Ultimately the track needs to be fixed up. It's an 1800s alignment. Pacific highway used to be a squiggle, this got fixed up incrementally over time, same needs to happen here.

[#Metro]

Current Plans

Regional Rail
https://www.transport.nsw.gov.au/projects/current-projects/regional-rail

Project overview
The NSW Government is replacing the ageing NSW regional rail fleet of XPT, XPLORER and Endeavour trains with 29 safer, comfortable and more accessible trains for customers travelling across NSW and between, Sydney, Canberra, Melbourne and Brisbane.

NSW finally gets rolling on $6bn of replacement trains
https://www.themandarin.com.au/228400-nsw-finally-gets-rolling-on-6bn-of-replacement-trains/

However, unlike the British HST sets that could run at 200km/h, the Australian model was limited to 160km/h in operation because of local track limitations.

The XPT still runs daylight and overnight services between Sydney and Melbourne with a sleeper option still available on the night run.

In a blow to diehard railheads, there is no mention of a Sydney-to-Melbourne sleeper option.

^ Standard of track means fast train has to run slowly. And it's not clear what the rationale for removing the sleeper service was. Yes it cost more, but people also pay more for it. I guess they think 11 hours on a train you can just sleep like on a long-distance international flight?

[HappyTrainGuy]

You can charge more but then you get into another issue of competitive costings. You can't have it all.

Remember the tilt trains were faster than road traffic for much of the alignment and that includes running on some older alignments with runs times of 4h05m to Bundy, 5h45m to Gladstone and sub 7hours to Rocky with Gladstone to Rocky being scheduled for 60 mins departure to departure running time. Now when was the last time you could go Roma Street to Rocky in a car sub 7 hours. Now compare that to the TiltTrain of today where it's rare to have it done on a faster alignment in sub 8 hours.

[minbrisbane]

I think some are missing the point.  Sleeper trains don't need to be fast (they do need to be on time though!) - and there's little to no additional infrastructure required.  For reliability's sake, sure, extra passing loops might be a nice to have.