PT in different states - comparison

[ozbob]

https://twitter.com/danielbowen/status/1484274563798433792

[ozbob]

Daniel Bowen: PT patronage in our biggest cities

> https://www.danielbowen.com/2022/01/21/pt-patronage-in-our-biggest-cities/

[achiruel]

Seems a bit of a misleading guide using Brisbane + Gold Coast. Didn't use Sydney + Wollongong or Melbourne + Geelong, so why tack a regional city on to Brisbane? Although upon reading the article it seems they may have used the entire TransLink network which would include PT backwaters like Toogoolawah, Helidon and Gympie North, so really not a fair comparison, unless they also included Lithgow for Sydney?

[#Metro]

I define Brisbane as the BCC area proper.
Beyond that it's SEQ.

Our area is different because we have a multi-city region. We're more like Sydney but with the town centres spread out even more. And we are going to get even more town centres in the future.

Out of the cities with rail, Adelaide is clearly the worst.

Their bus network is indecipherable, you need a code cracking machine to understand their bus routing and numbering. Yes they have "Go Zones" but that's because they don't really have a legible individual route structure like BUZ.

Buses run in competition to trains, like Brisbane. Unlike Brisbane the town plan is excellent and roads are grids but they mess it up anyway and call it "Metro" (Sounds familiar?).

Like Brisbane their bus reform was too scary and it failed the same way - the minister caved in.

One thing that is different is that Adelaide does competitive bus contracting, which still hasn't come to SEQ. They also recently contracted out the train operator as well, joining Melbourne in having a private train operator on contract.

[Cazza]

I define Brisbane as the BCC area proper.
Beyond that it's SEQ.

You do understand that includes places like Brighton, Lota, Rochedale, Heathwood, Kholo, Lake Manchester and Upper Kedron, but not Arana Hills, Browns Plains or Albany Creek?

[#Metro]

We know. It was all amalgamated from 20 LGAs into 1 in 1924.
It was intended to contain all the land required for the entire city's growth.

[ozbob]

When Daniel says ' Brisbane + Gold Coast ' he really means the patronage for TransLink SEQ.

[Cazza]

We know. It was all amalgamated from 20 LGAs into 1 in 1924.
It was intended to contain all the land required for the entire city's growth.

So I'm just a little unsure why you'd include the acreages of Mt Crosby and Pullenvale as Brisbane, but not anything just north of Kedron Brook on Dawson Road, that's all. The Hills district is a little over 10kms from the Brisbane CBD as the crow flies and has been an established residential area for the better part of 50 years. The BCC/MBRC (ex-Pine Rivers Shire) boundary here and Albany Creek way in particular doesn't seem to match the existing development patterns and there can quite a divide (public transport sense) between the two. Excluding areas like those from "Brisbane" isn't something I personally wouldn't do.

[#Metro]

Ask the Queensland Government, they passed The City of Brisbane Act, and the boundaries of the LGA are pretty clear.

[achiruel]

Ask the Queensland Government, they passed The City of Brisbane Act, and the boundaries of the LGA are pretty clear.

What's that got to do with urban public transport? The Sydney PT system doesn't limit itself to the City of Sydney, likewise Melbourne.

Places like Petrie, Redcliffe & Loganholme are clearly part of the urban footprint, and should be included for any fair comparison.

[#Metro]

Most of the PT task is carried out on BCC buses, which stay within BCC boundaries. You can't really draw decent conclusions if you start adding in Coolangatta, for example.

Have they included Gold Coast light rail in the figures? If they have the numbers are meaningless, it's like claiming 'Brisbane' has light rail!

Same with Sydney, you wouldn't add Newcastle and Wollongong. You need to have meaningful screen lines.

[Cazza]

Most of the PT task is carried out on BCC buses, which stay within BCC boundaries.

Literally my point, they don't!! They run services to Arana Hills, Ferny Hills, Albany Creek, Eatons Hill, Brendale, Strathpine (all MBRC), Browns Plains (Logan CC)... As you said yourself, the BCC boundary was drawn up back in 1924, our City has changed significantly since then.

You can't really draw decent conclusions if you start adding in Coolangatta, for example.

I think the majority understand that point. The Redlands to the east, south to Beenleigh, west to Ipswich and north to Caboolture is generally considered the "Brisbane Metropolitan Region", not some arbitrary Council boundaries that were drawn up close to a century ago.

You need to have meaningful screen lines.

In our case, that being clear differences between urban and regional areas, not a Council boundary that cuts a built up, residential area in 2 just because a creek runs through there...

[Gazza]

Yeah I think the definition of Brisbane is BCC, Logan, Ipswich, MBRC, Redlands, Pine rivers.

It would specifically exclude Scenic Rim, GC, Somerset, Lockyer, SC

[SurfRail]

The ABS has suitable definitions for "Brisbane" along with the other 7 capitals (GCCSAs).  These are the relevant definitions that should be used for there to be any meaningful comparison.

[AnonymouslyBad]

The ABS has suitable definitions for "Brisbane" along with the other 7 capitals (GCCSAs).  These are the relevant definitions that should be used for there to be any meaningful comparison.

Agree, though this may be easier said than done to report on with the data available...

At least it's consistent - while the buses might be close, "Sydney" in this case presumably includes trains to some very not-Sydney places, and "Melbourne" excludes trains to much of suburbia. That's just how their urban rail networks are.

[ozbob]

https://twitter.com/MelbOnTransit/status/1555333876368945152

https://twitter.com/MelbOnTransit/status/1555336782987726848

https://twitter.com/MelbOnTransit/status/1555338554934722560

 

[#Metro]

^ The problem with a lot of these city vs city appraisals is that they lack objectivity.

I have an idea that will change that - statistical comparison of service provision.

Stay tuned!! 

A mode-neutral comparison would be to evaluate the area of the 30 and 60 minute isochrones radiating out from the GPO for each city. I don't have the tools to do this but that is where this should be heading. Maybe the academics have access to Remix and can compare that.

[ozbob]

https://twitter.com/railmaps/status/1698224667553915238