BaT - Bus and Train project (was UBAT, was no CRR)

[James]

Not going to do you much good if something happens at a station. Literally nowhere to go

Like what? If a train breaks down at a station, just modify signals/crossovers such that a train can't get stuck behind a broken down train. I don't see why this is an issue. Stations in Vancouver have this type of layout, and Vancouver's public transport is nothing short of a work of art.

[dancingmongoose]

Not going to do you much good if something happens at a station. Literally nowhere to go

Like what? If a train breaks down at a station, just modify signals/crossovers such that a train can't get stuck behind a broken down train. I don't see why this is an issue. Stations in Vancouver have this type of layout, and Vancouver's public transport is nothing short of a work of art.

Please explain how you would actually do that with only one track through stations

[Gazza]

Have crossovers on station approaches.

I think you may be misinterpereting that image. It's a conventional twin track railway. one up track, one down track.
-The image on the left is what happens at crossovers.
-The image on the right is a typical station cross section. 2 stacked platforms.
On this video watch what happens from 0:30 to 0:57
You can visually imagine if you cut a cross section there is a short stretch with 4 tracks where they cross over and under each other.

Each station still has two platforms, inbound on one level, outbound on the one below.

You never have any sections of track where it's like Ormiston station with inbound and outbound trains sharing one platform.

[dancingmongoose]

No, you all are misinterpreting my point. Our just ignoring it maybe.

You have one track per level at stations, right?
What happens when something goes wrong on that one track?
You can't cross over, because there's only one track.
You can have as many crosses as you care to waste your money on prior to the stations, but that's not going to help you when you can't use the one track.
Something like the BaT you can just cross over onto the other track, yes you'll have to dance but they'll still be able to run. With this, not a hope.

[Gazza]

You can't cross over, because there's only one track.

No, there's two tracks at each station.
But in this design you'd just "dance" into the lower platform.
It's an up and down movement rather than a side to side movement.

What difference does it make if tracks are above/below or side by side? Operationally they are identical.

In both designs, in the overall project, you still have only one up, and one down track. 30 tph in both directions.

[James]

No, you all are misinterpreting my point. Our just ignoring it maybe.

You have one track per level at stations, right?
What happens when something goes wrong on that one track?
You can't cross over, because there's only one track.
You can have as many crosses as you care to waste your money on prior to the stations, but that's not going to help you when you can't use the one track.
Something like the BaT you can just cross over onto the other track, yes you'll have to dance but they'll still be able to run. With this, not a hope.

DM, things do not simply 'go wrong' with pieces of track. Generally when QR refers to 'track faults' and so forth, it is due to points failures (i.e. points stop operating, which is a big problem). Railway tracks are piece of steel with no electric current or moving parts whatsoever (as long as you aren't next to points), the chance of a track breaking is practical nil as long as there is proper maintenance.

And I see no reason why the trains can't 'dance', they'll just have to reverse further.

[dancingmongoose]

DM, things do not simply 'go wrong' with pieces of track.

I said on, not with. If you're going to be pedantic at least get it correct

You can't cross over, because there's only one track.

No, there's two tracks at each station.
But in this design you'd just "dance" into the lower platform.
It's an up and down movement rather than a side to side movement.

What difference does it make if tracks are above/below or side by side? Operationally they are identical.

In both designs, in the overall project, you still have only one up, and one down track. 30 tph in both directions.

So what they have a whole bunch of ramps through the tunnel?

[Gazza]

So what they have a whole bunch of ramps through the tunnel?

Err doesn't the video I linked to show precisely that?

Here's my final explanation:

[Jonno]

CRR was ready to implement. Just dust off the design and GO!

[dancingmongoose]

Ok, but I still don't like the fact that you're building a tunnel with single track sections.

[SurfRail]

Ok, but I still don't like the fact that you're building a tunnel with single track sections.

Did you like CRR with its twin single track bores?

[Gazza]

Ok, but I still don't like the fact that you're building a tunnel with single track sections.

What do you mean by a single track sections? Can you explain to me where in this design you'd have trains sharing track (Coomera Helensvale style)

On a normal railway tracks are side by side. You have two tracks total.

On this one they are one above the other. You have two tracks total.

I really don't think that is a difficult concept to grasp.

[Gazza]

Well the Epping Chatswood line has separate tunnels for each direction. What are your thoughts on that?

[red dragin]

Gotthard base tunnel only has crossovers twice in its 57km length. I think CRR can manage 7km.

The western track pair through the CBD are also single bore. Realistically how many breakdowns do we have, let alone in the tunnels?

[SurfRail]

Gavin - would the single twin bores be cheaper?

The single tube was the preferred solution for making the "B" part of BaT work, but is a single large bore more expensive than is required if that is not happening?

I genuinely have no idea so curious if you know or can find out.

I do know that generally the length of the tunnel doesn't always scale to the cost of the project given most of the set-up costs are one-offs and you can generally keep going at minimal cost.

[OzGamer]

I'm by no means an expert, but my understanding is that the cost of bored tunneling scales with something like the cross sectional area, so the BAT tunnel with something like 4-6 times the cross sectional area of a single track bored tunnel would be much more expensive than the twin tunnels of CRR per kilometre. Also, the stations would be more expensive because they are double storey etc. Presumably that's why a much shorter BAT solution with no northern train connection and fewer stations was projected to cost a similar amount to CRR from Yeerongpilly to Bowen Hills.

[SurfRail]

That's the thing.  By not front-loading unnecessary bus infrastructure into the tunnel because they are too afraid to make necessary changes to the bus network, and using the revised alignment, I can see CRR costing $4bn or less now.  Plenty of the original CRR quote was for approach works as far south as Salisbury, which can follow later.

[OzGamer]

Well, from memory, the Costello Commission of Audit in 2012 suggested cutting out the approach works and the new Yeerongpilly Station which was supposed to bring it down from $8B to $5B. However, with both Springfield and the Sydney Northwest Rail coming in less than original expectations, maybe the cost of these big projects is coming down from the crazy levels they were and maybe $4B would do it. Who knows?

[SurfRail]

http://media.brisbanetimes.com.au/video-news/video-qld-news/bat-tunnel-plans-scrapped-6242197.html

[OzGamer]

I really hope the body politic shakes off this absurd proposition that government can not build infrastructure without selling stuff.

Having said that, I'm not going to miss the BAT - bring back CRR, even if it has to be staged over a long time.

[ozbob]

Brisbanetimes --> BaT tunnel plans scrapped

[ozbob]

Sent to all outlets:

19th December 2014

Real concerns with the Bus and Train Tunnel - the BaT

Greetings,

Increasingly experts who are not under the thumb and 'group-think dogma' of the Newman Government are finding the courage to question the charade that is the BaT.

This project needs a comprehensive and rigorous evaluation, outside the politics of Queensland.  It is a fact that Cross River Rail was exhaustively evaluated by Infrastructure Australia and stacked up.  The BaT has not had this rigorous analysis.

Interesting reading:

1.  Is Southeast Queensland becoming a 'failed state' on infrastructure and planning?
--> http://www.linkedin.com/pulse/20140904031848-82138563-is-southeast-queensland-becoming-a-failed-state-on-infrastructure-and-planning?trk=mp-reader-card

2. Submissions by Phillip Stewart (see below).

Latest  --> here! PDF 0.7 MB

First --> here! PDF 1.1 MB

Best wishes,
Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track http://backontrack.org

=============================



Media release 14th September re-released 19th December 2014

SEQ: Will the BaT fly?

RAIL Back On Track (http://backontrack.org) a web based community support group for rail and public transport and an advocate for public transport passengers has said there is growing concern with the lack of detailed public information on operational aspects of the Bus and Train (BaT) tunnel.

Robert Dow, Spokesman for RAIL Back On Track said:

"Our members have attended consultation sessions for the BaT. They have expressed concerns with the lack of detailed operational information on how this tunnel will work, particularly the bus aspects."

"From the outset there has been concerns from transport planners that the concept is flawed (1)."

"These concerns are not being addressed.  What future proofing is there for the bus component? Clearly single unit buses will not be able to meet the eventual passenger demands. This is a once in a generation opportunity and to paralyse future transport options for Brisbane and south-east Queensland on political whimsy is seriously flawed."

"Brisbane bus issues can be fixed by implementing proper network review, and establishing proper bus priority on the surface network. Why waste billions of dollars?"

"If the BaT goes ahead as it is seem to be planned for, the end point will be a conga line of buses in the bus component similar to the Victoria Bridge bus conga lines.  Really, is this getting anywhere for the longer term?"

"Eventually electric bi-artic buses, or even a rubber tyred metro system will need to operate in the bus component of the tunnel to handle the pax loads. This means there be multiple transfers for bus passengers, the bus network will be forced to operate as a trunk and feeder model. Meanwhile, rail passengers will have seamless rides into the new underground stations."

"A serious question is:  Why is there no combined bus and train tunnel anywhere in the world?"

"The answer is obvious.  No other jurisdiction has been as stupid as Queensland appears to be."

"Questions on the planned operational aspects need comprehensive and detailed explanations before wasting billions of dollars!"

References:

1. Bus and rail tunnel all show and no substance: transport expert
http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/queensland/bus-and-rail-tunnel-all-show-and-no-substance-transport-expert-20131118-2xrab.html#ixzz3DDY3F0p7


Contact:

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track http://backontrack.org

=================

Good afternoon,

As stakeholders interested in public transport I have sent you a copy of my submission in response to the Revised Reference Design for the Queensland Governments proposed Underground Bus and Train (BaT) project.

I have also included a copy of my original submission to the EIS. I am an experienced professional in transport systems and have spent most of the last 10 years working in rail and public transport planning. The attached submission, together with my original submission, highlight a number of flaws in the BaT project that raise serious questions about the effectiveness and justification for the project.

I am a firm believer that if you want to deliver a quality project then you need to start with two fundamental questions

1.       What transport outcomes and services do we need in the future?

2.       What infrastructure is required to deliver those services?

When you ask these two questions you will end up with a project that that delivers the right outcomes for the people of SEQ.

These important principles have been completely ignored in the EIS and continue to be ignored in the Revised Reference Design.

The project shows considerable obvious flaws that need to be scrutinised and questioned to ensure that Queensland doesn't end up with another white elephant infrastructure project.

I hope that you will take the time to consider the issues I have raised and examine the EIS documentation for yourself.

Please also feel free to forward this email and attachment to any other people who have an interest in this project and also in ensuring that the State Government doesn't waste billions of dollars of taxpayer money on its pet white elephant.

Kind Regards,
Phillip Stewart

===============

Submissions:

Latest  -- here! PDF 0.7 MB  http://backontrack.org/docs/bat/Stewart2bat.pdf

First -- here! PDF 1.1 MB  http://backontrack.org/docs/bat/Stewart.pdf

Twitter

Robert Dow ‏@Robert_Dow 2 minutes

BaT has gone belly up! Flawed project, no great surprise is it? > http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=9972.msg150602#msg150602 ... #qldpol #qldvotes

[ozbob]

Half baked projects, have long term consequences ...  just saying ...

[ozbob]

Sent to all outlets:

9th February 2015

Bus Reform: BaT Tunnel Terminated

Image: RAIL Back on Track analysis of the Coronation Drive corridor, revealing expensive waste and duplication within Brisbane City Council's bus network.


Greetings,

RAIL Back On Track (http://backontrack.org) is  a web based community support group for rail and public transport and an advocate for public transport passengers again calls for an Inquiry into Public Transport and Bus Reform now that the scrapping of BaT has been announced.

Lawrence Springborg has now confirmed on radio that the BaT tunnel project is scrapped due to lack of funding. Does The Queensland Government have the funding supply to deliver major projects?

The BaT proposal had major shortcomings (see http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=9972.msg152759#msg152759 ). Briefly, first and foremost, Park Road station and Boggo Road busway were not going to have a connection, greatly reducing the utility of the tunnel for students who could no longer access UQ Lakes without backtracking. Secondly, the financials of the BaT project was inferior to the previous Cross River Rail proposal (significantly lower indicators of benefit - NPV and BCR). Thirdly, the bus component, in our opinion, would have further facilitated the hi-waste, cost-explosive policies adopted by Lord Mayor Graham Quirk and Brisbane City Council, which pushed fares up by 15% and 20%.

With the BaT proposal scrapped, Brisbane City Council's wasteful bus network must undergo bus reform. Brisbane's CBD will be choked with thousands of wall-to-wall buses, and escalating, unaffordable fares without it. The problems with Brisbane City Council's bus network, including waste, duplication, black-holes and inefficiency are well documented by RAIL Back on Track, TransLink's 2013 bus review report and the BrizCommuter Blog.

RAIL Back on Track members have developed the New Bus Network Proposal to reform the bus network, which can be found here.

New Bus Network Proposal ---> http://tiny.cc/newnetwork
Current BCC Bus Network ---> http://tiny.cc/checkyourbus

Bus Reform must be one of the first and major orders of business for the new Queensland Government.

Best wishes
Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track http://backontrack.org

References:

Real concerns with the Bus and Train Tunnel - the BaT
http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=9972.msg152759#msg152759

BaT Tunnel Plans Scrapped
http://media.brisbanetimes.com.au/video-news/video-qld-news/bat-tunnel-plans-scrapped-6242197.html

Brisbane Bus Reform: Brisbane City Council's Bus Network - What Went Wrong?
http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=11175.0

Brisbane buses: Call for CityGlider in Centenary suburbs
http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/queensland/brisbane-buses-call-for-cityglider-in-centenary-suburbs-20141104-11gxl3.html

BrizCommuter http://brizcommuter.blogspot.com.au/

[ozbob]

^ Fairfax radio news has followed up. Thanks 

[ozbob]

^ Fairfax radio news has followed up. Thanks 

7 News has also followed up.  Just completed an interview at my ' office '  Goodna rail  precinct ... 

[BrizCommuter]

http://brizcommuter.blogspot.com.au/2015/02/the-bat-is-dead-what-next.html
The BrizCommuter word on what the future looks like for BaT / Cross River Rail.

[ozbob]

Twitter

ABC Radio Brisbane @612brisbane  29 minutes ago

.@jackietrad: we can't stick with BAT tunnel, it was solely based on asset sales. We will make Cross River Rail a priority #qldpol #on612now

[ozbob]

Couriermail --> Senior LNP figures say BaT Tunnel was former premier Campbell Newman's impossible dream

BRISBANE'S bold BaT Tunnel was never going to be built, former senior figures in the Newman government claim.

The two-level tunnel to carry both trains and buses under the city's river was a centrepiece of the previous LNP government's infrastructure plans, to be partly funded by the controversial asset-leasing program and the rest from a public-private partnership.

But even if the LNP had won January's state election, the much vaunted $5 billion BaT project was doomed and would have been dumped during its second term in power, according to sources in the previous administration.

"It couldn't be done,'' one source said.

The proposed BaT tunnel was to carry both trains and buses under the Brisbane River.

Former premier Campbell Newman was a strong backer of the 5.4km project between Dutton Park and Victoria Park.

"The leader of the time had his heart set on it," a source said.

"They were trying to engineer it down to a preset figure, but it never got there.''

The proposal would certainly have been scrapped, citing "technical difficulties", he said ...

We knew that ...   Legacy Way - Newman  bus bull now this hey? 

[ozbob]

Twitter

Bus & Train Project ‏@BATProjectBris 24 minutes ago

As the Qld Govt is moving ahead with planning for SEQ's rail network, this acct will soon be taken offline – follow @TMRQld for updates

================

Farewell !   

The BaT ( < not an acronym ) website is no longer active either ..   

[ozbob]

[SteelPan]

CRR would have given Brisbane it's own Circular Quay, an inner city public transit hub of rail, bus and ferry!