Gold & Sunshine Coast Regional Rapid Rail (formerly HSR thread)

[SurfRail]

Why does the local service omit an interchange at Alderley and not continue to Strathpine?  The network looks horribly fractured.

[#Metro]

If people want to make their own proposal, maps etc, they are free to do so.

This is a complicated and time-consuming proposal. I am not paid to do this.

[Old Northern Road]

The map will be updated to reflect the fact that use of CRR will require stopping at a CBD station (Albert St), Wooloongabba and Park Road. These extra stations which must be stopped at will probably mean that adding new stations is going to be limited.

You didn't address my point. My point is that if you only run Sunshine Coast trains through CRR then the tunnel will be massively underused. At most you'd only need 6tph during peak. On the other hand if you ran all trains north of Strathpine via Trouts Rd you could have up to 24tph during peak (say 12tph to Kippa-Ring, 12tph to Caboolture/Maroochydore) and at least 10tph during off peak (4tph Kippa-Ring, 4tph Caboolture, 2pth Maroochydore).

[SurfRail]

If people want to make their own proposal, maps etc, they are free to do so.

This is a complicated and time-consuming proposal. I am not paid to do this.

Take it or leave it - advice is free (including free to be ignored).

NB: Apologies I appear to have accidentally hit "modify" instead of "quote" so some text is missing from the entry above.

[#Metro]

You didn't address my point. My point is that if you only run Sunshine Coast trains through CRR then the tunnel will be massively underused. At most you'd only need 6tph during peak. On the other hand if you ran all trains north of Strathpine via Trouts Rd you could have up to 24tph during peak (say 12tph to Kippa-Ring, 12tph to Caboolture/Maroochydore) and at least 10tph during off peak (4tph Kippa-Ring, 4tph Caboolture, 2pth Maroochydore).

More info coming soon - welcome to discuss then. 

[Gazza]

If people want to make their own proposal, maps etc, they are free to do so.

This is a complicated and time-consuming proposal. I am not paid to do this.

Why do you post proposals for comment, and then get salty if people comment?

Or is the only feedback acceptable stuff that praises you?

Surfrail asked a simple, valid question that you should be able to answer 

Saying "oh well, do your own" sounds more like the sort of non answer that a politician would give 

[#Metro]

NB: Apologies I appear to have accidentally hit "modify" instead of "quote" so some text is missing from the entry above.

Thanks SR. I don't have the exact text for what was deleted from my post, but basically I explained that I would model the simple case first.

I have some calcs etc that I am checking carefully through at the moment, best to hold until that is published.

[#Metro]

SEQ Regional Rapid Rail - Sunshine Coast Line via Trouts Rd
Modelling Exercise

I have gone back and done modelling featuring a local train service + SEQ RRR

Note, I am not paid or a professional. I know nothing about train operations and this is my first attempt at trying to model this using public info. The model should be considered an approximation for discussion purposes. Others are welcome to construct their own models to prove their own points or try out their own ideas. Given the time and intricacy of this work, I will probably not be able to do this for you - sorry in advance! However, the approach is there for people - anyone- to copy.

The models are for discussion purposes only, and may contain errors or omissions.

Method

Google Maps was used to draw and add stations along the Regional Rapid Rail concept corridor (Trouts Rd). Stations were located at cross-arterials for the purposes of good bus connections.

The station locations were:

Roma Street
Everton Park (Stafford Rd)
McDowall (Hamilton Rd)
Aspley (Albany Ck road)

A station was not included at Alderly or Enoggera as that location would be a tunnel exit, however, others may take up such a task.

Google Maps was used to measure distances (approx) between stations. From these distances and knowledge of the acceleration and deceleration rates of trains, acceleration distances and times were calculated according to known Kinematic Equations and the "three phase" method.

A train diagram was prepared, showing stations on the vertical and time running on the horizontal. As time moves from left to right, trains climb up the graph, reaching stations. Stations are the black horizontal lines indicated by arrows. The general idea is
to (a) never have different lines cross (collision) unless the trains are on separate tracks and (b) not let the trains get 'too close' to each other (I am guessing 2 min separation is good, based on signalling limiting train services to once every 2 min).

The peak hour is when most trains run. A 30 min sample of time for a mock afternoon peak hour was created. Each square block is a 30-second parcel of time (horizontal time axis only).

The scenarios modelled were:
160 km/hr SEQ RRR trains + 130 km/hr QR Local Trains

1. 10-minute peak frequency, with single track pair or single track pair vs waiting in a passing loop/refuge track.
SEQ RRR train and SMU 260 QR Local.

2. 7.5-minute peak frequency, with single track pair or single track pair vs waiting in a passing loop/refuge track.
SEQ RRR train and SMU 260 QR Local.

160 km/hr SEQ RRR trains + 160 km/hr QR Local Trains

3. 10-minute peak frequency, with single track pair or single track pair and waiting in a passing loop/refuge track.
SEQ RRR rolling stock used for BOTH long distance and local stops.

4. 7.5-minute peak frequency, with same parameters as above

Results and Comments
In general, the mixing of express and local trains on the same track will reduce line capacity, and/or require track amplification.
The track would likely be able to carry perhaps 12 trains per hour- far from the potential 24 trains/hour capacity.

160 km/hr SEQ RRR trains + 130 km/hr QR Local Trains


Click to enlarge

10 minute frequency scenario
An SEQ RRR train comes into existence at Roma Street (red line). It spends 30 seconds at the platform, closes its doors.
The driver accelerates the SEQ RRR train to 160 km hour, stopping at Aspley RRR station about 6 minutes later.

Two minutes after the SEQ RRR train departs Roma Street, a second train comes into existence at Roma Street (blue line).
This is the local Trouts Rd train (SMU 260) stopping all stations to Aspley. It spends 30 seconds at the platform, closes its doors.
The driver accelerates the local train to 130 km/hour, stopping at Stafford Road Station. Due to shorter station spacing, it travels at 80km/hr to Hamilton Rd station.

The model shows that there is a problem beyond Hamilton Rd (yellow zone). The next SEQ RRR train is coming up just behind it. (SCENARIO A1) If the local train continues, it will barely just make it into Aspley Station. The SEQ RRR train would be ~ 90s behind it. Thus a third track is required between Hamilton Rd and Aspley terminus, and an extra third platform for the local train.

Alternatively, the local train would be delayed at Hamilton Rd station for 3.5-4 minutes in a refuge track while the next SEQ RRR train behind it sped through Hamilton Rd station. (SCENARIO A2)

If the local line were any longer (i.e. train line continues from Aspley to Bald Hills, Strathpine etc, another track would be required between Aspley and Bald Hills.

7.5 minute frequency scenario
Increasing the SEQ RRR train frequency to 7.5-minute peak service means that extra track is required between Stafford Rd Station and Hamilton Rd Station.

Alternatively, the local train would be delayed at Hamilton Rd station for 2.5-3 minutes in a refuge track while the next SEQ RRR train behind it sped through Hamilton Rd station.

--- ---- ----

160 km/hr SEQ RRR trains + 160 km/hr QR Local Trains

3. 10-minute peak frequency, with single track pair or single track pair and waiting in a passing loop/refuge track. SEQ RRR rolling stock used for BOTH long distance and local stops.

4. 7.5-minute peak frequency, with same parameters as above


Click to enlarge

It is natural to ask that if a high-speed tilt train were used if these issues would be any different.

However, using SEQ RRR rolling stock for both local and long distance services does not change the results much. SEQ RRR trains would accelerate more slowly, thus taking more time to get up to speed. Also, once at the higher speed of 160 km/hour, it would also take longer to decelerate the train and bring it to a stop. Only about ~ 25 seconds are saved between Roma Street and Stafford Rd Stations, by using the SEQ RRR rolling stock for the local line. Beyond Stafford Rd station, there is no advantage to using tilt trains etc as the station spacing would dictate a much slower speed (80 km/hr assumed) regardless of what train is used.

The results are much the same as for the 160 + 130 scenarios above.

--- ---

Conclusions

A local QR service on the Trouts Rd corridor appears to be possible, subject to constraints.

If the Trouts Road line were built only for local QR services, it would take approximately 11 minutes to go from Roma Street to Aspley.

If the Trouts Road line were built for both local QR services and SEQ RRR services, an extra track would be required between Hamilton Rd and Aspley stations. Or between Stafford Rd and Hamilton Rd stations (7.5 min frequency case). A third platform would be required at Aspley.

With mixed trains, capacity on the line would be limited to 12 trains/hour or so.

Given the limit of a signalling system is generally accepted to be 2 minutes, it is assumed that a 2-minute distance between train services on the same track would be the bare minimum acceptable distance between trains. Movements in yellow zones would be disallowed by the signalling/safety systems.

Alternatively, if refuge loops were built at stations, waits of around 3 minutes would be experienced. For a line that is only 11 minutes end to end, it is open to discussion about whether this is reasonable or not. For example, after rushing out of Roma St at high speed and perhaps stopping at Stafford Rd, in some scenarios, passengers would sit at the train platform for about 3 min, on an 11 minute end-to-end line.

COST of third track and platform between Hamilton Rd - Aspley: $125 - 250 million (approx).

xxx End of post.

[ozbob]

Thanks LD.   

Praise and constructive criticism always welcome.  Personally directed sledges are not!

These are complex issues, it takes a lot of effort and there will always be alternate views.  So respect each others point of view please.

[#Metro]

Queensland section of national high-speed rail network should be fast-tracked

http://www.couriermail.com.au/goqld/queensland-section-of-national-highspeed-rail-network-should-be-fasttracked/news-story/5a2376a9fe1f194a39fecc4a9d85367a

THE Queensland section of a national high-speed rail network should be fast-tracked, Deputy Premier Jackie Trad says.

A 20-minute train service between the Gold Coast and Brisbane would take tens of thousands of cars off the roads. And bringing northern New South Wales towns such as Lismore or Casino to within a 40-minute commute would relieve congestion and house-price pressure on Brisbane and the Gold Coast.

Don't need national HSR to have rapid rail to the GC...

[Gazza]

Ah, but the benefit for Trad is if its part of a national system, the feds can pay for it 

[#Metro]

SEQ Regional Rapid Rail
Sunshine Coast / Kippa Ring Rail Model (SC3)
http://tiny.cc/SEQHSR

A key problem in the previous SEQ RRR model was placing train stations along the Trouts Rd corridor, and allowing more trains from the north to use the RRR line. Mixing different train patterns destroy line capacity dramatically and involve expensive track amplification. Travel times from Ferny Grove line stations are good and within travel time budgets (Marchetti constant) of most people (e.g. 25 min to Roma St from Mitchelton).

An alternative proposal is to place a single station at Chermside (Hamilton Road) and another one at Murrumba Downs and feed the Kippa Ring line into the SEQ RRR. This would give travel times from Kippa-Ring of about 16-20 minutes. A new station at Murrumba Downs would be needed to make up for the loss of two stations on the existing QR MBRL line. Adding Kippa Ring would entail an absolute minimum of new construction because the line is already there.

This model (SC3) is New Bus Network compatible. Albany Creek pax would be fed into Hamilton Rd RRR on a feeder bus that continues to Chermside, and could possibly extend through to Toombul and Brisbane Airport. Travel times to the Sunshine Coast would be around 68 minutes if built to 160 km/hr speed, but due to the station spacing, potentially higher speeds of 185 km/hr may be possible.* If so, travel times to Sunshine Coast (Noosa) would be less than 60 minutes.

In contrast to the previous Trouts Road local scenario, running both Kippa Ring and Sunshine Coast trains as RRR does not reduce line capacity: trains could theoretically run every 2 minutes (perhaps slightly worse than this due to longer time to stop RRR trains). Grid elements: Stafford Rd pax could be fed into Mitchelton station as in the New Bus Network Proposal. Albany Creek Rd pax can be fed into Hamilton Rd RRR or Geebung stations via Aspley busway station/shopping centre.

A rail service like this would beat the car hands down in terms of capacity (9 car train @ 1500 pax x 30 = 45 000 pphd or a 37 lanes/direction on a motorway) and speed (16-20 minutes to Kippa Ring). Unlike National HSR, there would be no competition from air,
guaranteed patronage (all current SC pax, MBRL pax plus some), and reduced labour costs from DOO and higher speed. Regionally, there may also be benefits from bringing both Gold Coast and Sunshine Coast airports intro direct competition with Brisbane Airport.

Acceleration/Deceleration calculations

Click to Enlarge

Time/Distance Diagram

Click to Enlarge

* 185 km/hr used as the tilts can go to 210 km/hr, however, a 10% 'over speed' safety margin has been applied here.

High Speed Rail (Red) (0-160 km/hour speeds)                                                                           
High Speed Rail Kippa Ring (Blue) (0-160 km/hour speeds)
For discussion purposes only. Not a professional work.                     
                                                   
May contain errors or omissions.                        
No liabilities accepted.                        

Rolling Stock: Tilt Train
Acceleration: 0.69 m/s2
Deceleration: 0.8 m/s2
Top Speed: 160 km/hour                                                                        

[#Metro]

M1 Motorway traffic jams targeted in $168 million Labor pledge
http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/queensland/m1-motorway-traffic-jams-targeted-in-168-million-labor-pledge-20160426-gofr0y.html

Federal Labor has offered up a $168 million election carrot in a bid to snare commuter votes in Queensland.

Every day, more than 145,000 commuters use the M1 Motorway, which Labor has pledged to widen to cut travel times.

There must be a map somewhere, where they look at a marginal seat, pick the largest interchange and then promise to upgrade it.

$200 million here, $300 million there... it all adds up.

SEQ RRR will put an end to this. Instead of motorway interchanges, they can promise station extensions until they get to Noosa or Coolangatta.

[#Metro]

Regional Rapid Rail anyone?
From the Smart Cities Plan, DPMC

Regional transport links, such as fast rail, increase both access to jobs and access to the
labour force. Fast rail between centres provides people with a greater range of options for
where they live and work.

It allows people and businesses to take advantage of the amenity and affordability of regions
and smaller cities, while reducing the pressure on larger metropolitan centres.
It also creates incentives to establish businesses and create jobs in smaller centres by offering
fast, convenient access to markets and services of larger cities when required.
Just as it does in countries like Japan, China, Spain and France, and is planned to do in the
UK and the US, a high speed rail network linking the east coast of Australia has the potential
to ease the pressure on our largest cities, while providing important links to jobs and services
for regional centres.

Building high speed rail would require significant investment. Funding of this scale simply
cannot be met by government budgets, and it may be unrealistic to build the entire network
at once. The Australian Government will instead consider whether innovative funding and
financing approaches could strengthen the case to deliver high speed rail.

The Commonwealth is also interested in parallel proposals that seek to link major regional centres
better to their neighbouring capital cities through improving travel times on existing transport
connections—for example in South East Queensland, Newcastle, Wollongong, and Geelong.

[#Metro]

SEQ Regional Rapid Rail

With minimal construction, the Beenleigh line (Kuraby-Beenleigh) could also be added to the RRR system,
and pair with Kippa-Ring. It has enough stations to have decent patronage on it from day one. Fully CRR compatible.