Dicussion: Are express services really needed on the Ferny Grove line?

[ozbob]

I think it was Stephenk who made a comment that possibly there is no need for express services on the FG line. This makes sense to me as the line is only 16km long, and running express patterns on such a short line complicates would could be a simple timetable exercise.

Do you have any comments on this?  My personal opinion is that the express services on the FG line be done away with and at the busy peak period just have high frequency all stoppers. That way every one wins.  As it stands the express services only save a few minutes at best, and interfere with straightforward timetabling.

Thoughts?

Cheers
Bob

[david]

I would have to agree with you Bob. The express services don't make too much sense on such a short line such as the Ferny Grove line. However, demand should dictate whether express services are useful on the Ferny Grove line.

This topic has provoked another thought in my mind - Are the Cleveland services running express from Park Road to Manly and vice versa actually that heavily patronised to warrant such a service? This express service does limit the capacity of the section of the Cleveland line from Park Road to Manly and also prevents an even spacing of services to and from Manly/Cleveland. For example, the 6:39am express from Cleveland in the mornings seems to take the same amount of time as an all stations service. This train also runs in between two all stations services 20 minutes apart. Perhaps this service should be converted to an all stations service to bridge the gap. Any comments?

[ozbob]

Map of network with total distances can be found here for interest --> click here PDF

[Derwan]

Without a third track for express trains to overtake all-stations trains if necessary, express trains limit the frequency of trains.  Also, in situations where the previous all-stations train is running late, express trains get "held up", partially defeating the purpose.

The express services on the Ferny Grove line save commuters between 2 and 7 minutes.  There are 12 minutes between an all-stations train and express service - and as little as 6 minutes between all-stations services.

I think I'd prefer more frequent services - rather than risking having to wait an extra few minutes on the platform to save a few minutes travel time.

Of course the other issue is passenger loading.  Running trains express through the more populated areas closer to the city means a more comfortable trip for those who live further out.  But does that lead to even more overcrowding on the all-stations trains?

No doubt residents along the Ferny Grove line will be wanting more services - but as it stands, it'll have to be either add more services or keep the express services.  They can't have both, so give them a choice. 

[stephenk]

There are some pretty good comments in this thread.

Running express services where there are just two tracks both reduces the capacity of lines, and increases the gap between services for non-served stations. All for an often minor increase in journey time.

Express services should be completely done away with on the Ferny Grove Line. The two morning expresses reduce the journey time from Ferny Grove by approximately 5 mins. The two evening expresses reduce the journey time by the grand total of 1-2 mins! The morning expresses create a 23 and 17 minute gap for non-served stations. The evening expresses create a 20 and 24 minute gap for non-served stations. These gaps are totally unacceptable for a city of Brisbane's population, and very unattractive for commuters. I just can't see any major justification for the express services going by the above figures. Also, the express services tend to be mixed in with Mitchelton reversers. This creates gaps of up to 17 mins for stations Mitchelton to Ferny Grove. Whilst not as bad as the gaps for Gaythorne/Alderley to Windsor, it is still a long wait on what is according to QR their second busiest line.

I propose that all Ferny Grove Line expresses and Mitchelton reversers should be done away with, and replaced with an all stations train departing Ferny Grove approximately every 10 mins during the peaks. (The single track section can support this frequency). Interestingly this would not increase the total number of trains using the line per hour, but would make for more efficient use of those trains. The run times would have to be varied by a few minutes to allow trains to slot in with other services between Bowen Hills and Roma Street, but this happens already in the existing timetable.

Now onto the Cleveland Line express with the same run time as the all station trains (6:39 ex Cleveland). I would also be very interested to know how full this train is? I bet there is spare capacity for it to make a few more extra stops, and take the pressure off the following train which is according to one of my work colleagues quite overcrowded. If the spare space on the 6:39 ex Cleveland is standing room only, maybe make the extra stops at stations nearer the city such as Buranda and Coorparoo?

[ozbob]

Media Release 26 June 2008

SEQ:  Improve peak rail services on Ferny Grove line by removing express services

RAIL Back On Track (http://backontrack.org) a web based community support group for rail and public transport and an advocate for public transport users has suggested that removing the express services on the Ferny Grove line would actually allow for  improved commuter urban rail services for all commuters on the Ferny Grove line during peak times.  The Ferny Grove line has very heavy peak loadings but the line is only 16 kilometres long.  Improved services would be possible if the timetable complications of express pattern services were removed and more frequent services stopping at all stations were introduced.

Robert Dow, Spokesman for RAIL Back On Track said:

?The two morning and two evening express services on the Ferny Grove Line only reduce the journey time by one to five minutes, yet create gaps between trains of between 17 to 24 minutes at stations which are not served by the express services.?

?These gaps are unacceptably long for what is one of the busiest train lines in Brisbane.?

?This makes public transport very unattractive.?

?The current mix of express services and trains reversing at Mitchelton could also be eliminated.?

?A better timetable for this line would be services running approximately every 10 minutes during the peaks stopping at all stations.?

?This would create a frequent train service attractive to commuters from all stations on the Ferny Grove line.?

Contact:
Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org

[jason]

After growing up at Ferny Hills (north of Ferny Grove) and living there for several years, yes express services are required.

The catchment area for Ferny Grove extends west to Clear Mountain, south to The Gap and north to Eatons Hill.

As the line moves towards the city, catchment extends between McDowell and Stafford Heights. Peak services can often be close to standing room only when they leave Ferny Grove, and beyond standing room crush between Mitchelton and Enoggera

[Derwan]

Peak services can often be close to standing room only when they leave Ferny Grove, and beyond standing room crush between Mitchelton and Enoggera

I guess it could go either way.

Express services mean reduced frequency but means people aren't boarding already overcrowded trains.  It also means and even greater reduction in frequency for the stations they run express through.  (Although in the case of Ferny Grove, this is minor as there are only a couple of express services.)

If express services were ditched, a higher frequency could be achieved reducing the number of people on the train from the commencement of the journey.  But this would require more trains, which we're still waiting on.  I'm guessing the section of single track still limits the frequency as well.

[stephenk]

Peak services can often be close to standing room only when they leave Ferny Grove, and beyond standing room crush between Mitchelton and Enoggera

I guess it could go either way.

Express services mean reduced frequency but means people aren't boarding already overcrowded trains.  It also means and even greater reduction in frequency for the stations they run express through.  (Although in the case of Ferny Grove, this is minor as there are only a couple of express services.)

If express services were ditched, a higher frequency could be achieved reducing the number of people on the train from the commencement of the journey.  But this would require more trains, which we're still waiting on.  I'm guessing the section of single track still limits the frequency as well.

Precisely, the reason why Ferny Grove Line trains can fill up after a few stops is due to the the large gaps of up to 24mins between trains created by the expresses and Mitchelton reversers. If all trains ran all stations at an approx 10min interval (the single track section can only support a train approx every 9mins) then the trains would not fill up as fast. The shorter wait would also reduce the overall average journey time.