Passenger load surveys - discussion (Split from OTP Sep 2015)

[#Metro]

QR Passenger Load Survey?
Does anyone know what train patronage is doing?

[ozbob]

QR Passenger Load Survey?
Does anyone know what train patronage is doing?

Huh?  This is Queensland ....   a line by line, station by station load data is not available  (yet) ..

Best we have publicly at present is this > http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=11548.msg158880#msg158880

Rail patronage essentially stagnant, bus going backwards (some of this is shift to light rail).

I would like to see BT route data ...

[ozbob]

The last load survey that comes up on QR website is this:

http://www.queenslandrail.com.au/Pages/Results.aspx?k=load%20survey

2009!

You're welcome 

[ozbob]

The last load survey that comes up on TL website is

http://translink.com.au/site-information/search?query=passenger%20survey

Passenger Load Survey 2012 Q1

You're welcome!   

Tell ' em nothin' ..



It is a unbelievable hotchpotch of failure  ... ho humm ..

[ozbob]

And the fact that I choose to record the OTP data here on the forum (effectively disappears after 5 days) is just further evidence of the charade that is foisted on us all in Queensland.

This is the only public record available of the cumulative data.

Shocker !! 

[#Metro]

I'm confused, the link says the target for rail is 50. I am assuming this is 50 million trips per year? I could almost swear it was higher than that in previous years.

I've cross referenced with the TransPerth trains website, simple to look up the pax usage. http://www.pta.wa.gov.au/NewsandMedia/TransperthPatronage/tabid/218/Default.aspx

States that the most recent completed year (2014) they had 64 million passengers, that's 14 million more pax than in Brisbane.

The density of both cities is almost the same, same trains, networks are comparable (length and number of lines) and Perth's population is lower.

[ozbob]

Perth feeds rail properly with bus.

They have a better over all frequency.

The have a much more equitable and affordable fare system ...

SUCK EGGS SEQ !!   

[ozbob]

Perth feeds rail properly with bus.

They have a better over all frequency.

The have a much more equitable and affordable fare system ...

SUCK EGGS SEQ !!   

At least some moves to address the fare system.

Bus network reform?  Still to come, has to arrive soon ..

Improved frequency?  Hard to achieve for the now, but will come.  An advantage that Perth has over Brisbane is that most of the freight is separated out.

[techblitz]

what we do know is there is too much competition between bus(bcc) and rail(QR) and its also now politically entrenched...probably to the point of no return.....fares and patronage decline aside...both modes are streaming ahead in terms of future expansion.....

rail >>> line extensions with some minor TOD here and there....
bus >>> steaming ahead in terms of T.O.D around major demand generators such as chermside,garden city,indro,carindale,coorparoo,newstead is insane.....

one word >>>ROUNDTABLE
YES sure a roundtable meeting could be a waste of time and bring nothing but it may also actually bring something.....

[ozbob]

BCC has a history of not allowing BT to cooperate properly in any network improvement process  ...

Watch this space ...

[James]

what we do know is there is too much competition between bus(bcc) and rail(QR) and its also now politically entrenched...probably to the point of no return.....fares and patronage decline aside...both modes are streaming ahead in terms of future expansion.....

rail >>> line extensions with some minor TOD here and there....
bus >>> steaming ahead in terms of T.O.D around major demand generators such as chermside,garden city,indro,carindale,coorparoo,newstead is insane.....

one word >>>ROUNDTABLE
YES sure a roundtable meeting could be a waste of time and bring nothing but it may also actually bring something.....

This is like trying to get Israel and Syria to get involved in a roundtable. You can't do it when one organisation (in this case Brisbane Transport) pretends that the other (QR) doesn't exist. The two do not co-operate AT ALL. The sooner BT is ripped from BCC's control, the better. Bus network reform is not going to be achieved in any way, unless BT financially collapses (fat chance of that happening).

[techblitz]

This is like trying to get Israel and Syria to get involved in a roundtable. You can't do it when one organisation (in this case Brisbane Transport) pretends that the other (QR) doesn't exist. The two do not co-operate AT ALL

there is always someone who has the power to get them together

[ozbob]

https://data.qld.gov.au/dataset?q=patronage

What is available     

The Public transport patronage and go card usage  is only aggregate ..

[#Metro]

there is always someone who has the power to get them together

There is a long history of non-co-operation. BT is a CONTRACTOR and is supposed to be taking directives from TL. It is because the whole thing is a monopoly, TL cannot make a another choice if it cannot get the service it wants from the existing supplier.

[techblitz]

So why wouldnt BCC aim for a monopoly?......there is massive residential/commercial development approval right around BRISBANE CITY COUNCILS BUS & FERRY SERVICE AREAS...they have the major university student monopoly sorted.......slowly getting the westfield monopoly sorted......after that they then move onto other hubs where rail cannot service directly eg: cannon hill shopping center,coorparoo central,newstead,portside/northshore,westend etc...then simply feed the services into the busways........its actually a smart business model when you think about it.....im pretty sure this is THE reason premiers tend to side with mayor encumbents.....this is definitely power-playing at work....QR vs BCC?BT

[#Metro]

You are confusing integrated network with operational monopoly. A single network does not imply a single operator. Far from it.

The monopoly should be at planning level (i.e. TL), not at operational level (individual bus operators).

To use your example of Westfield. Yes there is one big shopping centre, but inside that are hundreds or thousands of individual stores containing non-Westfield staff that are business entities not owned by Westfield. Westfield does the asset management (top level stuff), the individual stores operate their own businesses (bottom level stuff).

Even if we were to run with your argument, it would imply TL buyout of Brisbane Transport, as buses must cross council boundaries to service non-Brisbane City Council areas.

[HappyTrainGuy]

bus >>> steaming ahead in terms of T.O.D around major demand generators such as chermside,

My ass! If you happen to have close access to a small number of roads that's it. Most buses that feed Chermside from the direct surrounding areas are hourly. Yep. Hourly. Even worse in some other areas where it can be 90 minutes. If you miss the 325/335 to the north it can be faster to walk to/from Chermside. There is a reason why locals prefer to drive there than catch public transport.

[James]

This is like trying to get Israel and Syria to get involved in a roundtable. You can't do it when one organisation (in this case Brisbane Transport) pretends that the other (QR) doesn't exist. The two do not co-operate AT ALL

there is always someone who has the power to get them together

But neither level of government has the balls to go ahead and do it, and as evident by recent protests and electoral results, the people have no interest in fixing the mediocrity of Brisbane Transport.

[techblitz]

bus >>> steaming ahead in terms of T.O.D around major demand generators such as chermside,

There is a reason why locals prefer to drive there than catch public transport.

dont try and heap all the blame on bad frequency......people drive to these major shopping centers because they do big shops and dont like carrying 20 bags of shopping on a bus and then walk it home....no amount of frequnecy upgrade will change this......besides.....was i even talking about the suburbs around chermside?...

I was talking about the immediate vicinity of westfield chermside...and i will call it a major demand generator if i see 330`s 80 percent full at midday.....or well loaded GCL buses or 680`s in the afternoons...took the 325 o/b 2.43pm from chermy on wednesday....it had a decent load on it for that time of day....
Chermside IS going ahead ......there WILL be more t.o.d approved around that shopping center as time goes on.....i see big contruction going on near the rsl as just one example......more t.o.d means more patronage for the buses.......yes some of the burbs around chermside could do with a bus network upgrade but dont deny for one second HTG that chermside is not a major demand generator because it is.....

http://www.news.com.au/finance/real-estate/chermside-and-chermside-west-are-booming-in-brisbane-with-plenty-of-development-applications-in-the-pipeline/story-fndbalka-1227169468187

[SurfRail]

^ All the more reason to put the network in the hands of somebody who knows how to deal with that growth properly.  BCC do not.

[HappyTrainGuy]

Oh I know Chermside is a major trip generator but there is sweet f**k all when it comes to local transport. And don't use that bullsh%t shopping excuse as to why people don't use public transport. The only thing that has changed in pt land is a 77 now stops there. 2 buses got buzed. And the 335 now stops there in peak direction. For a very long time the 335 bypassed Chermside in peak hour direction (P339 ran along Webster Road to Ellison Road) so there was a 2 hour block in each peak where workers and shoppers had either no way getting to chermside or getting home from chermside. The afternoons would have been the worst as you had shoppers, school kids and workers with no public transport access. Even for those that live 1km away.

As I said repeatedly during the translink review for the northside. It finally gave the northsiders a proper and connected public transportation network. But now we have the same shitty network as before and it is f**king terrible! I'm not going to sugar coat anything. Chermside is expanding with all these new apartments and yet the public transport for the northside is still the same as 20-30 years ago. Buses like the 330 already arriving full at Chermside are proof of this.

And just to make it clear. I'll list some reasons as to why people don't use public transport and prefer to drive to Chermside and other hubs such as Aspley, Geebung/Zillmere/Carseldine railway stations. There are no bus routes near by. The routes have poor frequency. Poor span of hours. The PT network is not connected between the railway lines, bus interchanges and other routes. People don't want to use buses that are already full because of a flawed public transport network (remember the whole 330 peak hour capacity can be put on 2 trains - As soon as the Norris Road extension goes through the 330 should be modified in such that Carseldine becomes the primary termination point). The routes take scenic tours. The routes are poorly designed when it comes to traffic flow/times. Locals know the routes to take to avoid these congestion spots where no PT runs. Locals also know where to park and catch the bus just before Chermside. The resulted travel times to use PT are just way too long. Delays are by far the common norm. And the big one. PUBLIC TRANSPORT COST TO F**KING MUCH! Scrap the 6 then free scheme and forget the "I want my daily/weekly ticket back". Just have cheap and affordable public transport. Stop trying to trick people in to using it.

[SurfRail]

I'm just not understanding why anybody is sticking up for Brisbane Transport except out of a misplaced sense of tribalism.

They are losing passengers, not introducing new services, costing more than ever to run.  On top of that they are still getting 60 new buses a year while other operators still have high-floors on route services (despite the oldest BCC bus now being around 15 years old, with an average fleet age in single-digits and 100% low floor and air-conditioned).  You could stop delivering buses to BCC for 2 entire years and it wouldn't even be noticed except on the balance sheets.

[techblitz]

They are losing passengers,

if they are its mostly fare related......and that will soon be fixed....

On top of that they are still getting 60 new buses a year while other operators still have high-floors on route services

it called looking after the "big end of town"...which is what happens with monopolies......but if were talking about upgradng to modern fleets......i see plenty of quality buses across all the operators.....surfside/clarks still have a few older buses to refurb or replace......thompsons/hornibrook/kangaroo seem to be rotating well....ive already expressed my dissapointment about the lack of funding being put towards upgrading the south-west transit buses...101/102/103 etc...

[James]

if they are its mostly fare related......and that will soon be fixed....

Fares haven't increased since the start of last year and we had the first fare reduction since TransLink was 'born' in 2004.

Patronage is still falling though, mainly because of recent network cuts and increasing levels of unreliability. To think it is anything to the contrary is burying one's head in the sand.

[techblitz]

if they are its mostly fare related......and that will soon be fixed....

Fares haven't increased since the start of last year and we had the first fare reduction since TransLink was 'born' in 2004.

Patronage is still falling though, mainly because of recent network cuts and increasing levels of unreliability. To think it is anything to the contrary is burying one's head in the sand.

show me proof of the patronage drops from when the fares were recently frozen  till now.........this should be good....

[techblitz]

There are no bus routes near by. The routes have poor frequency. Poor span of hours. The PT network is not connected between the railway lines, bus interchanges and other routes.

agreed there is some poor connections between bus routes but as for the lack of connection between railway lines thats hogwash......even on a sunday one can connect between caboolture-ferny grove lines via the 325(as bad as the geebung timetabling is),369,340 and the 310(virginia)for caboolture-shorncliffe lines....this is an absolute dream compared to whats currently on offer for a sunday on the southside......a crosstown connection for sandgate - perhaps strathpine/bray park would be handy.......bus services for the strathpine area will soon be up in the air anyways with westfield planning to sell the shopping center......with it potentially earmarked as a mix of residential/dining......everyone will then have to go to chermside or north lakes to do the big shops....

[HappyTrainGuy]

There are no bus routes near by. The routes have poor frequency. Poor span of hours. The PT network is not connected between the railway lines, bus interchanges and other routes.

agreed there is some poor connections between bus routes but as for the lack of connection between railway lines thats hogwash

Oh I'm going to love this. Really love this.

You mean how the 335 arrives at Carseldine station... near Carseldine station at the same time as the outbound train or scheduled 3 minutes after the inbound train due to constant late running/first outbound passes the station at 9am on a weekday. Or how the 340 departs a few minutes before the train arrives which was better than how it previously left as trains were arriving? Or how about the 325 stops at Geebung are 150m+ away from the station despite there being 2 bus stops and a new interchange next to the station? Or how the hourly bus departs and arrives at obscure timings. Maybe how the 327 drives past as both the city and caboolture trains are at the platform. That's always a good interchange laugh. Surely you must mean the great connections of the 336/337 that run every 90 minutes. Or how on sundays the 326/327/336/337 do not operate. Sunshine is full of interchange abilities. The 338 has a great 2hr weekend frequency. Not to mention the confusing if you board the 338 to strathpine station in the afternoon you are not guaranteed that you'll end up at Strathpine or take a major detour via Bald Hills. That's of course forgetting about the final 5.10 something service during weekdays. Bald Hills. Bahaha. They are lucky to have buses even going past in the off peak as the peak hour 327 gets cut in peak hour despite dead running between Bald Hills/Strathpine to form the reverse service. How the hell does that work!

Here's news for you. Everyone already goes to North Lakes and Chermside. Strathpine westfield is a complete hole. For years its felt like the owners have been running that place at minimal cost. It's old and outdated and the stores there...

[techblitz]

obviously a complete overhaul for the coverage areas around chermside is needed but if a major review does not go ahead then they really only need to line up those timetables correctly at the train stations......that 325 sunday timetable is a shocker.....bewilders me why they would make the route start 6 minutes later half way through the day so that  the bus then misses the train by 2 minutes....that being said its a very handy route...gets me from church rd zillmere  to newmarket station far quicker than going via bowen hills...simply hopped off the bus....walked up to the platform and my train to ferny grove was arriving.....and if i ever need to get from church rd up to the shornecliffe line...its covered.....and that is what i like about the current BT network......yes while there are a lot of bad connections that really do get under ones skin.....there are also a hell of a lot of good ones......it goes both ways unfortunately....

[HappyTrainGuy]

It's not just making a few timetables better. The whole northside bus network is fundamentally flawed. The translink review simplified the network and made the routes so much better to use. Rail was the backbone. Key roads were the back bone for inbetween. Everything else became feeders. Forget the crap everywhere else. The northside had a bloody good proposed network that would have been leaps and bounds ahead of where we are today.

[James]

obviously a complete overhaul for the coverage areas around chermside is needed but if a major review does not go ahead then they really only need to line up those timetables correctly at the train stations......that 325 sunday timetable is a shocker.....bewilders me why they would make the route start 6 minutes later half way through the day so that  the bus then misses the train by 2 minutes....that being said its a very handy route...gets me from church rd zillmere  to newmarket station far quicker than going via bowen hills...simply hopped off the bus....walked up to the platform and my train to ferny grove was arriving.....and if i ever need to get from church rd up to the shornecliffe line...its covered.....and that is what i like about the current BT network......yes while there are a lot of bad connections that really do get under ones skin.....there are also a hell of a lot of good ones......it goes both ways unfortunately....

Do you really think BT did that on purpose? Connections like that are totally unintentional, sort of like the inbound 411 at Toowong. 6 minute gap between an inbound 411 arriving and inbound train departing - great for connections to Fortitude Valley and further north. By comparsion, the outbound 411 generally departs Toowong either 2 minutes before or 1 minute after the outbound train arrives.

A complete overhaul with the 411 terminated at Toowong, on the other hand, would mean the 411 could meet both the inbound AND outbound trains with time to spare! And not only every second train, but ALL trains!

There are identical examples all over the BT network. The bus network is fundamentally awful and any connections are essentially down to fortune/chance. Saying it is 'intelligent design' is a total misnomer.

[techblitz]

timetables can easily be fixed to get on top of that....the biggest issue with the BT network is lack of truncation for the coverage routes and the excessive duplication along certain corridors.....reduce that waste and theres the upgraded frequencies etc etc

[HappyTrainGuy]

timetables can easily be fixed to get on top of that....the biggest issue with the BT network is lack of truncation for the coverage routes and the excessive duplication along certain corridors.....reduce that waste and theres the upgraded frequencies etc etc

For the northside there has to be a complete rewrite. It's just not timetabling, cutting a couple routes here and there and reducing duplication. The whole network needs to be revised. And that includes going to town on what defines a buz.