Yeronga CityCat Ferry Assessment

[#Metro]

One of the things that comes up from time to time is extending the CityCat ferry to Yeronga.
The usual reasons given for non-extension is that it would 'take too long' and cost too much.

An alternative hypothesis is that the seat of Yeronga is controlled by Nicole Johnston, and being neither blue or red team, nobody on either side wants to spend money in her ward.

Assessment Method:
It would be unfair to compare a hypothetical CityCat to the current 105 hourly bus service. We need to compare an improved bus with an improved CityCat service, as money could be spent on either, particularly so if the 196 is extended into Yeronga. Non-peak times should be used as the basis for calculation, as we are aiming for good PT all day, not just during peak hour.

It is not valid to use the rest of the 105 journey time to the CBD because the routing is very different to what an extended 196 BUZ would take. The solution is to splice the 196 journey time from Fairfield Gardens - CBD on to the Yeronga-Fairfield section of the 105.

So from Orsova Road #33, the 105 bus takes 10 minutes to reach Ashby Street in Fairfield. From here use the 196 journey times. Add +1 minute to allow for the bus to drive from Ashby St to Brougham St ('bridge the gap').

From Brougham St to CBD (City Hall) on the 196 takes 20 minutes.

So our raw travel time is (10 minutes + 20 min) = 30 minutes.

If the bus is going every 15 minutes, then the maximum travel time is around 30 minutes + 15 minutes = 45 minutes.
The average time is (15 min max wait / 2)= +7.5 minutes, so the average total journey time is 37.5 minutes.

So there we have half the problem solved. 196 Yeronga BUZ would take max 45 minutes to get to the CBD.

Second half of the problem - figure out how long the ferry will take.


The CityCat takes 23 minutes to go from North Quay to UQ Lakes. We need to add in the distance from UQ Lakes to Yeronga (2.5km). We know that the Ferry does the 2km from West End Ferry terminal to UQ Lakes (2 km) in 5 minutes, so the part to Yeronga should take just over 6 minutes. Round up to 30 minutes.

Now assume that the Ferry runs every 15 minutes. The max travel time would be (30+15) =45 minutes, and the average time would be (30+7.5) = 37.5 minutes.

Conclusion:

This assessment modelled the travel time and total journey time of a hypothetical CityCat from a new CityCat stop in Yeronga. Both the maximum and average journey times are equivalent to extending the BUZ 196 into Yeronga.

[SurfRail]

There are other more fundamental problems, like the lack of Citycats (very expensive to source compared to a new bus and on a stretch with likely quite limited patronage potential), wash issues and low speed limits on the river upstream of UQ.

[#Metro]

There are other more fundamental problems, like the lack of Citycats (very expensive to source compared to a new bus and on a stretch with likely quite limited patronage potential), wash issues and low speed limits on the river upstream of UQ.

I agree with you, and I would expect the operating costs of the ferry to be higher (3 staff) than that for bus (1 staff).

This would suggest that the way to go would be to continue pushing for extending the 196 into Yeronga.

[hU0N]

You also need to add weightings. The goal of either option would be to encourage more people to take some form of public transport correct?

That being the case, what matters is not which service is faster, but which service SEEMS faster. For example, time SEEMS to pass more slowly waiting at a stop compared to being on board a bus/train/ferry. That's part of why many people will walk to frequency.

As a rough approximation (you might be able to find better weightings, these are just rough numbers picked up from here and there):
1 min on train = 1 min on train (obviously)
1 min on a bus = 1.1 min on train
1 min waiting = 2 min on train
1 min transferring (or waiting for a connecting service) = 1.5 - 3 min on train

So back to the question at hand, actual travel and wait times are the same, and with the average wait time properly weighted, the journeys SEEM to the average traveler like 45 min.

Which is better boils down to how you weight ferry travel vs bus travel. My gut feeling is that ferry travel would probably SEEM to take slightly less time than bus travel, (much like trains SEEM to take slightly less time than buses), but I've never read anything about it, so it's just a feeling.

[#Metro]

I disagree with this approach, however, I would not prevent others from 'remixing' whatever has been put out there so far. (Indeed, I generally encourge people to 'remix'.)

There are also no transfers involved with either scenario.

[hU0N]

What's to disagree with? It's an extremely well established phenomenon. Why do people walk further to frequency? Why don't people walk further to limited stops buses? Why do people take long slow rat runs to avoid even a small amount of traffic congestion? Why do real time PIDs increase ridership at bus stops? (Hint: it's because waiting SEEMS shorter when you know how long you have to wait).

I mean, why compare two options at all if we aren't going to consider whether one option will attract more passengers than the other?

[James]

Any CityCat extension down into Yeronga would be made with Uni students in mind, rather than CBD workers (routing is too long). I think the big issue here is a ferry service would be too slow getting into the CBD and its catchment area would be quite restricted. You would also have NIMBY issues, I suspect.

The biggest extension I would advocate for would be one down to the Corso near Ormonde Rd, then a terminal on the north side of the river near Tarcoola St (St Lucia) to try and get some cross-river traffic going. Really though, I'd much rather see BUZ 196 over any CityCat extension.

[aldonius]

Ormonde Rd hasn't got much catchment though - a better location catchment-wise would be the end of Orlando. But there are houses immediately either side. Going south a street, Cassia Ln has a bit of parkland and possibly enough space.

Concur with Tarcoola St as the St Lucia terminal location.

And yes, 196 extension is better on every score except the cross-river connection. Mostly due to the ability to have 3-5 stops along the way and therefore have almost the entire peninsula within walking distance.

[kaykayt]

I think that CityCat should be extended to the Western Suburbs. But higher priority projects should be finished first such as CRR, Bus Network Upgrades and more services!!!

[dancingmongoose]

If the CityCat was extended to Yeronga, there could also probably be a case for extending it further to service Tennyson Tennis Centre/Yeerongpilly Green TOD. Journey times to the city would probably be outrageously long but worth a look at especially considering how poor PT is in Yeronga.

[James]

If the CityCat was extended to Yeronga, there could also probably be a case for extending it further to service Tennyson Tennis Centre/Yeerongpilly Green TOD. Journey times to the city would probably be outrageously long but worth a look at especially considering how poor PT is in Yeronga.

Tennyson is even further down the river, and it has a train station quite close to it (Yeerongpilly), compared to west Yeronga which has nothing. By now, the idea of using the river to get to the CBD is absurd, and UQ is an unattractive proposition. Cross-river traffic here would also be better served by land-based transit (read: Long Pocket is an awful trip generator and Indro/UQ are better accessed by bus).

[achiruel]

I think that CityCat should be extended to the Western Suburbs.

Hopefully this will never happen. The river west of UQ becomes windy and narrow, requiring slow speed limits to minimize wash, creating excessive journey times.

Western suburbs will be better served by Centenary BUZ/Glider and improved rail connections

I know at one stage there was also talk of a bus bridge between Bellbowrie and Riverhills, I'm not sure what became of it though.

[#Metro]

As the modelling above shows, it is a nice concept to have CityCats to Yeronga, but the travel times would just equal to that of an upgraded BUZ 196 via West End. Peak rockets could be faster, but I doubt they are required when there is a Priority A rail station they can access if they wanted a faster trip.

Extending the BUZ 196 into Yeronga seems to be the way to go. I also think there is merit in sending the 104 to UQ Lakes.

[achiruel]

I also think there is merit in sending the 104 to UQ Lakes.

Not so sure on that one. Most commuters to UQ from the western lines would change at Indooroopilly, the express trains stop there, and there would be minimal to no travel time savings.

Graceville-Indooroopilly is 4 minutes by train; the 104 is 18 minutes from stop 48 to stop 13/18. The 432 takes 13 minutes from Stop 35 to UQ.

Additionally, 104 pax would lose a lot of connection options at Woolloongabba and gain only a couple at UQ.

If a route from the Tennyson/Yeronga area were to serve UQ, I'd suggest the 105; it serves the Yeronga peninsula and really has no reason to enter the CBD anyway.