Phase out paper single tickets?

[SurfRail]

Unfortuantely there are less cities without paper than ones with. Was London ripping off paper users like Qld?

As Derwan says above, you need a system in place where you can turn up to a major station or bus stop or ferry stop and just go for one off or irregular users.

Melbourne doesn't have short term ticketing.  It's patronage hasn't suffered at all, and they have more visitors than SEQ (and more than metropolitan Brisbane in particular once you exclude the Coasts).  Why do we "need" this option when they have demonstrated pretty clearly that you don't?

[Derwan]

Melbourne doesn't have short term ticketing.  It's patronage hasn't suffered at all, and they have more visitors than SEQ (and more than metropolitan Brisbane in particular once you exclude the Coasts).  Why do we "need" this option when they have demonstrated pretty clearly that you don't?

Just because patronage hasn't suffered doesn't mean the rigmarole of purchasing a smart card doesn't annoy the hell out of visitors!!

Does Melbourne have the same deposit system where you have to get the deposit refunded when you leave?

[SurfRail]

Not sure to be frank.  I have a habit of forgetting to take one of my several mykis every time I go so I probably have a fair bit of credit.  Same with Perth and my Smartrider collection...

Point being that people seem to have no trouble acquiring a myki and using it. 

[STB]

Unfortuantely there are less cities without paper than ones with. Was London ripping off paper users like Qld?

As Derwan says above, you need a system in place where you can turn up to a major station or bus stop or ferry stop and just go for one off or irregular users.

Melbourne doesn't have short term ticketing.  It's patronage hasn't suffered at all, and they have more visitors than SEQ (and more than metropolitan Brisbane in particular once you exclude the Coasts).  Why do we "need" this option when they have demonstrated pretty clearly that you don't?

No one knows how much this has impacted on Mel, most of the railway users in Oz are commuters, they can work it out quickly. Its the casual, infrequent and short term visitors that is harder to train and easier to loose to road. If I arrive at the airport, I should be able to procure my ticket within 30sec of using a machine (I state that from personal experience using mutltiple systems across the world). If it takes longer or you cannot use a machine to do this, the system is indeed broken.

If we feel its not worth the effort to chase these users, then this is fine too. But just saying just because you have strong growth doesn't mean you have got the best growth.

Well with Melbourne, you can jump on a Smartbus to Broadmeadows and purchase a Myki on board that Smartbus (forget the route number 90x) and then just keep it until you no longer need it (I've kept my Myki).  Alternatively, can catch the Skybus to Melbourne and have a Myki in minutes with the dedicated Myki seller at Southern Cross station, which is how I got my Myki. 

For Brisbane, just sell them at both the Domestic and International stations with flyers teaching people how to use them and have it set up where people can ask for refunds on their Go Cards after they have finished using them for when they return to the airport.  You'd have a Go Card within minutes of landing and getting your baggage.

It's not difficult!

[SurfRail]

^ Skybus should be a myki ticketed service, even though I appreciate there are advantages to doing it the way they do with hand-held barcode scanners.  Their software suite is more sophisticated than ours so should be able to accommodate a premium service option.

You should at least have the option to validate, and because it is point to point they could quite easily put myki validators at the airport stops and in the Southern Cross terminal rather than having to kit out the fleet.  (They have recently installed myki readers at all the long distance coach bays at Southern Cross to help out with the RRL shutdown, people touch on as they board coaches and then touch off when they end up where they have to be in regional Vic, so it is certainly doable.)

[somebody]

Whinge, whinge.  Everyone has an obstacle that they want to put into the way of moving forward. 

Melbourne doesn't have short term ticketing.  It's patronage hasn't suffered at all, and they have more visitors than SEQ (and more than metropolitan Brisbane in particular once you exclude the Coasts).  Why do we "need" this option when they have demonstrated pretty clearly that you don't?

Just because patronage hasn't suffered doesn't mean the rigmarole of purchasing a smart card doesn't annoy the hell out of visitors!!

Annoy the hell out of them?  Please.  You buy a go card at the airport station, or ticket counter in the case of the Gold Coast and you can get a refund, in cash, in full, including the deposit when you leave so long as you meet the conditions (paid cash, less than $50 credit).  Only thing is that the education of this is a little lacking and I'm not sure if chq/sav EFTPOS is equivalent to cash.

It's similar for people coming in by coach to the Roma St Transit Centre.  And others.

Does Melbourne have the same deposit system where you have to get the deposit refunded when you leave?

Actually, they require you to forfeit the deposit, and have the temerity to demand an additional fee for processing the refund of the balance above the deposit.

I'm all for paper tickets being long gone but currently here they should remain due to the slackness of improving and rolling out access to retail outlets and top up facilities (Has indro even got a ticket/top up machine yet?). Get servos, Coles, Woolies, IGA, 7-11, Australia Post etc to start selling and allowing top ups. Make GoCards easy to buy like walking in and picking up a iTunes, phone, bunnings, myer, target, jbhifi gift card etc. Get some GoCard vending machines at interchanges and railway/busway stations. Once that's addressed by all means bye bye paper tickets. Some bus routes can very easily start the trend by making all busway stations (Including KGSBS/QSBS) and the major interchanges like Taigum, Toombul, Chermside, Aspley, Strathpine, North Lakes etc pre paid only stops. Even change the ticket machines to GoCard vending machines so instead of paying for a ticket you pick up a shiny new GoCard.

Indro doesn't need an AVVM.  There's a store in the centre which sells Go Cards and less than 500m away is a machine and a ticket office at the railway station.

As for your other point about the distribution channels being lacking, I would say that 98% of Greater Brisbane has an outlet within a 2km walk.  I don't think the standard needs to be 400m or even 800m.  It's a once off purchase.  For those that can't walk for a reasonable distance, you can get it mailed to your door.  What is so difficult?

The only thing that needs to happen is sell go cards on buses.  It is cheaper to buy a go card now than to buy paper tickets, even for rare users.

Not really.  If you are visiting Brisbane and will only do just one or two trips, it costs the fare plus the $10 deposit on the card and then you've got to work out how to get your $10 back.

There needs to be an option for visitors to simply buy and go - and not have to worry about how the card works and how to get your deposit back after one day!!

Yes, really.  Four one zone off peak trips or a return trip to Ipswich off peak and the penalty for using paper has already cost you more than forfeiting the deposit, which as I posted above, you don't have to do.

London is leading the way.... but we need to be able to accept contactless payments first.  I personally don't support the withdrawal of paper tickets without it.

Leading the way, yes.  They show that there is a take up of around 0.25% for this option.  I can see that as a viable alternative system to just selling the go cards on the buses.  However, given that a flat fare is likely to be necessary for a PayWave/PayPass system and the low likely take up, I can't agree that this is a must have.

My reasoning... if I'm visiting another city and will only make a few trips by public transport, I just want to turn up and go.  I don't want to spend time researching what kind of card their system uses, making sure I have a chance to buy it first and then working out what to do with it when I'm done.  That's a ridiculous prospect for someone making a couple of trips while they're in town.  I'm happy to pay a couple of bucks extra for the convenience of just turning up and travelling.

The problem here is that many many other people use paper that shouldn't.  It's hardly a noticeable inconvenience for the odd tourist and probably will work out better for them in the end, not needing to buy tickets each time they board.

So many reasons to get rid of paper (which I haven't gone into), such poor reasons for keeping it.

I had to come back to get that off my chest.

[ozbob]

Welcome back Somebody! 

Yes, time for paper to go ..

[somebody]

Given how much trouble this is to get popular support for, how about just pulling it from manned QR ticket offices and ferries, in both cases go cards are already sold in those locations as a first phase.

[James]

Indro doesn't need an AVVM.  There's a store in the centre which sells Go Cards and less than 500m away is a machine and a ticket office at the railway station.

As for your other point about the distribution channels being lacking, I would say that 98% of Greater Brisbane has an outlet within a 2km walk.  I don't think the standard needs to be 400m or even 800m.  It's a once off purchase.  For those that can't walk for a reasonable distance, you can get it mailed to your door.  What is so difficult?

The issue is areas outside of Brisbane, and ease of topping up. Indooroopilly shopping centre is a major interchange, and once BCC moves away from the 'hourly buses from everywhere in the Western Suburbs to Indro' mantra, there will need to be an AVVM to allow for not only the purchase of new go cards, but the top-up of existing go cards at what will be a major interchange.

Yes, its all nice and dandy that there are newsagents in the shopping centre - but you could say the same about Carindale, Chermside and Garden City, and they still have AVVMs. The newsagents are closed outside the usual 9 to 5 trading hours anyway, and a walk to Indro station and back is quite an inconvenience. It can be up to a 15 minute return trip (primarily due to stopping and starting from traffic lights, stairs etc.) from the bus station to the rail station. I see no reason why one AVVM could not be installed.

[somebody]

Meh. There's no reason why it can't be installed at Indooroopilly school either, where it would probably add more value.

It's not an obstacleto pulling paper.

Sent from my GT-S6102 using Tapatalk 2

[HappyTrainGuy]

Indro doesn't need an AVVM.  There's a store in the centre which sells Go Cards and less than 500m away is a machine and a ticket office at the railway station.

As for your other point about the distribution channels being lacking, I would say that 98% of Greater Brisbane has an outlet within a 2km walk.  I don't think the standard needs to be 400m or even 800m.  It's a once off purchase.  For those that can't walk for a reasonable distance, you can get it mailed to your door.  What is so difficult?

The issue is areas outside of Brisbane, and ease of topping up. Indooroopilly shopping centre is a major interchange, and once BCC moves away from the 'hourly buses from everywhere in the Western Suburbs to Indro' mantra, there will need to be an AVVM to allow for not only the purchase of new go cards, but the top-up of existing go cards at what will be a major interchange.

Yes, its all nice and dandy that there are newsagents in the shopping centre - but you could say the same about Carindale, Chermside and Garden City, and they still have AVVMs. The newsagents are closed outside the usual 9 to 5 trading hours anyway, and a walk to Indro station and back is quite an inconvenience. It can be up to a 15 minute return trip (primarily due to stopping and starting from traffic lights, stairs etc.) from the bus station to the rail station. I see no reason why one AVVM could not be installed.

Yep. Alot of the interchanges only have one of them. At Chermside there is the machine at the interchange or its a walk to the newsagent at the very far end of the complex. A return trip just to top up or purchase a GoCard is over 1km.  Even in Brisbane it can be difficult to find a location to top up. For the northside if you are in Brisbane the easiest place to find a top up location is at a railway station. The whole of the Redcliffe area only has 3 or 4 locations to top up. Deception Bay only has one location to buy and top up a gocard. Since the interchange at North Lakes there are now two places to top up (the interchange and the Westfield a couple hundred metres away). You can now easily see why it sucks every time you get on a bus as someone wants to top up their card with the most stupidest amount available. It's why I like BT's no top up policy

[somebody]

If we want to talk about places which lack an AVVM, I think Dakabin station is a bit of a worry.  I note that Eden's Landing, Ascot, Hendra and Clayfield also lack that facility.  (Bindha too, but that doesn't really count.)

Not sure why any interchange needs multiple AVVMs.  I can't recall ever seeing a long queue to access one.

[SurfRail]

If we want to talk about places which lack an AVVM, I think Dakabin station is a bit of a worry.  I note that Eden's Landing, Ascot, Hendra and Clayfield also lack that facility.  (Bindha too, but that doesn't really count.)

Not sure why any interchange needs multiple AVVMs.  I can't recall ever seeing a long queue to access one.

Eden's Landing has one at the station entrance.  Can't speak for the Doomben stations, although as far as I was aware every station except for some Sunshine Coast stations north of Nambour had them.

It gets a bit silly when you have quiet stations with 2 side platforms with an AVVM each, or Coomera (which has a completely gated concourse as opposed to Nerang so there is an AVVM on both sides), then busier stations like Helensvale, Nerang and Robina have one each and experience queuing - in Nerang's case, one AVVM outside the gates and a ticket office inside.

[somebody]

If we want to talk about places which lack an AVVM, I think Dakabin station is a bit of a worry.  I note that Eden's Landing, Ascot, Hendra and Clayfield also lack that facility.  (Bindha too, but that doesn't really count.)

Not sure why any interchange needs multiple AVVMs.  I can't recall ever seeing a long queue to access one.

Eden's Landing has one at the station entrance.  Can't speak for the Doomben stations, although as far as I was aware every station except for some Sunshine Coast stations north of Nambour had them.

It gets a bit silly when you have quiet stations with 2 side platforms with an AVVM each, or Coomera (which has a completely gated concourse as opposed to Nerang so there is an AVVM on both sides), then busier stations like Helensvale, Nerang and Robina have one each and experience queuing - in Nerang's case, one AVVM outside the gates and a ticket office inside.

If that's true, then the Translink website has it wrong.

What are we counting as a long queue here?

EDIT: The TL website also reckons Thomas St-Thagoona lack fare machines.

[somebody]

According to the TL website, fare machines exist at: Caboolture, Glasshouse Mountains, Beerwah, Landsborough, Palmwoods, Nambour
Not at: Elimbah, Beerburrum, Moololah, Eudlo, Wombye

[Arnz]

According to the TL website, fare machines exist at: (snip message)

As you said, TL website is wrong.  Only most stations north of Nambour lack fare machines.

[HappyTrainGuy]

Bindha too, but that doesn't really count

[somebody]

That's a bit weak isn't it?

Sent from my GT-S6102 using Tapatalk 2

[HappyTrainGuy]

Looks pretty strong to me. The wind won't be blowing it over anytime soon

[somebody]

Anyway, the points above about not needing paper are really the only ones I wanted to make.

Sent from my GT-S6102 using Tapatalk 2

[nathandavid88]

If we want to talk about places which lack an AVVM, I think Dakabin station is a bit of a worry.  I note that Eden's Landing, Ascot, Hendra and Clayfield also lack that facility.  (Bindha too, but that doesn't really count.)

Not sure why any interchange needs multiple AVVMs.  I can't recall ever seeing a long queue to access one.

Dakabin has an AVVM. Two of them in fact, one on each platform, which is good I guess considering that there's no way for PWD to change platforms...

[HappyTrainGuy]

Pretty sure every in use railway station has one bar the few stations between Nambour-Gympie North.

[ozbob]

Tennyson had an AVVM, I brought probably the last ticket from it .. 



Last Tennyson suburban service --> http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=6083.msg58450#msg58450

[ozbob]

Twitter

Robert Dow ‏@Robert_Dow 7s

Petition: Sell go cards rather than paper tickets on BT buses --> http://www.epetitions.brisbane.qld.gov.au/petition/signatures/pid/125 ... #qldpol

Response:

Petition Reference: CA13/776353
! refer to your petition requesting go cards be sold on Council buses rather than paper tickets.
Your petition has been investigated and it was considered by Council at its meeting held on
11 February 2014. It was decided that the petitioners be advised of the information below.
TransLink Division, Department of Transport and Main Roads, is the entity of the Queensland
Government responsible for the delivery of public transport services, fare collection and
infrastructure for South East Queensland. Brisbane City Council operates bus services under a
contract with TransLink Division. TransLink is also responsible for defining all ticketing and fare
policies. Any changes to how fares and tickets are sold are subject to approval by TransLink.
Of all transaction types taken on board Council buses, paper ticket sales have reduced
substantially over recent years and now account for an average of four per cent, with the vast
majority of transactions being done via go card. While the delays from selling paper tickets are
now minimal, Council does acknowledge that the time spent loading passengers could be sped
up by not selling paper tickets.

The sale of go cards on Council buses will also cause considerable delays in the speed of loading
passengers as the cards will need to be accessed from a secure storage box and payment made
by customer. In addition, it is likely that customers will ask follow up questions in relation to
registrations, top ups, and refunds.

The current ticketing equipment on buses does not support the selling of go cards and any
change to that equipment would be costly and would not be seen as value for money. Council is
mindful of the safety and security of our bus operators and for that reason they do not carry large
amounts of cash. If they were to sell go cards the result would be a large amount of cash on
board, as well as them having to safely store go cards on board the bus. This could impact on the
safety of bus operators.

TransLink is responsible for determining who can sel! go cards and currently there are over 580
retailers including: Queensland Rail stations, some busway stations, selected newsagents and
7-Eleven stores. TransLink is currently working on an improved retail solution. TransLink is also
responsible for determining whether or not paper tickets will continue to be sold on buses. A
number of services are prepaid and do not sell paper tickets, and ticketing machines to buy paper
tickets are available on busway stops and interchanges. Automatic top-up for go cards via direct
debit is also available. Council acknowledges the concerns of the petitioners, however it is the preferred option that
go cards will continue to not be sold on Council buses.

Could you please let the other petitioners know of this information.
If you have.any further questions ptease contact Selena Beaverson, Executive Assistant, in
Council's Brisbane Transport Division, on 3403 8888.

[ozbob]

[ozbob]

Looks like paper is going  ...  going ... gone!

Down to 4% on BT, marvellous!!

[Jonno]

Looks like paper is going  ...  going ... gone!

Down to 4% on BT, marvellous!!

But how many passengers have been lost to get it down to 4%?

[red dragin]

I was surprised at the statement that Translink is in charge.....

[ozbob]

Couriermail Quest --> Fare evasion costs public transport users millions, Rail Back on Track says it's time to scrap paper tickets

Fare evasion is costing honest public transport users in south east Queensland more than $25 million a year.

According to TransLink, so far this year, a total of 1472 customers have received a Penalty Infringement Notice for fare evasion at train stations in the inner-city, Ipswich/Rosewood and Springfield train lines.

Commuters were nabbed between January 1 and May 13, 2014.

Train stations with the highest number of fines include Roma Street (183), Central (154), Goodna (124), Ipswich (100) and Milton (70).

Robert Dow from RAIL Back On Track, a web based community support group for rail and public transport users, has called on TransLink to scrap paper tickets to curb the number of fare evaders.

"I am aware we can't have inspectors on at every station but if they removed the paper ticket then it would become more obvious to see who is not touching on and off," Mr Dow said.

"This is getting very serious. The other week I was travelling on the western line (Ipswich line) out of peak, and I did some quick counts at a number of stations. It appeared to me that about 1 in 15 to around one in 20 were using a go card.

"It beggars belief to think that they are all using extreme cost paper single tickets. The majority are clearly fare evading.

"I regularly observe people boarding buses without valid tickets as well."

Mr Dow said the fact that unemployed Queenslanders did not get concession fares was alarming.

"It really is time that some commonsense was exercised. Get (the) unemployed at least paying half fares, get them onto go cards," Mr Dow said.

"It is in the best interests of our community to do that. Turning the unemployed into criminals is clearly counterproductive, and will be very costly in the longer term on many levels."

Mr Dow said it was during off peak time when a fare evasion happened.

"People think there's a good chance they won't be caught. There aren't fare gates on many stations along the Ipswich line," he said.

"Ipswich has gates and the next one along is Toowong."

A TransLink spokesman said TransLink's Senior Network Officers, Queensland Police Rail Squad and Transit Officers had conducted several targeted operations to combat fare evasion on these train lines.

"Officers also regularly target anti-social behaviour. Forty-four TransLink Senior Network Officers patrol the network to deter fare evasion and anti-social behaviour," he said.

Central — 154

Roma Street — 283

Milton — 70

Auchenflower — 32

Toowong — 18

Taringa -16

Indooroopilly — 49

Chelmer — 8

Graceville — 13

Sherwood — 19

Corinda — 23

Oxley — 43

Darra — 83

Richlands — 18

Springfield — 9

Springfield Central — 5

Wacol — 32

Gailes — 22

Goodna — 124

Redbank — 63

Riverview — 43

Dinmore — 27

Ebbw Vale — 22

Bundamba — 49

Booval — 78

East Ipswich — 69

Ipswich — 100

[ozbob]

From the Queensland Times 22nd May 2014 page 14

STREET TALK | is public transport too expensive?



================

" YEAH, way too expensive.  I use it four times a day at $5.20 a trip "

Sometimes you need to do the right thing for folks ...  $5.20 is a one zone paper single ticket ...   

Equivalent go card fare peak is $3.53, off peak $2.83

[ozbob]

Twitter

Robert Dow ‏@Robert_Dow 51s

http://twitpic.com/e2r7uj  - Paper > 55% off peak >30% peak go >http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=7277.msg142339#msg142339 ... #qldpol

[ozbob]

Twitter

Megan ‏@MerryMegsy

"@themykiuser The Netherlands abolishes paper train tickets after 175 years http://bit.ly/1sTkN5t  http://t.co/JcKEmPMUlR"

[techblitz]

Couriermail Mail --> Smart card technology may replace go cards

[techblitz]

Yay to the surfside bus driver....after spending about 5 mins to get about 100 metres down griffith st(700i/b)......bus driver pullsup to cooly central shops....heap of people ready to purchase paper tickets...driver kindly tells them all to head down to the 711 to get a gocard...which they happily oblige