RAIL - Back On Track Forum

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IMHO TransLink and NSW could start talking about getting cross border services.
TL could be contracted by NSW to do the planning and organizing across the border, allowing the TL zones to extend into NSW.
The LRT system could also be extended into NSW, of course, with federal and NSW funds.

Operational costs could be charged to NSW on the basis of "service-km" formula. Again for all services that cross the border.

It would be a shame to see LRT stop suddenly because of an imaginary line.

They already have at least one service that crosses the border. I don't know about others but they have the new Coolangatta Nightlink service heading south. And to my knowledge they have approval from NSW to build the heavy rail to Coolangatta which has a loop around the airport which strays into NSW. There might be a bit of government fighting over who pays (when isn't there?) but I think if the demand is there then the light rail would be extended... eventually. Again, depends on who pays. I doubt QLD would stump up all that much cash to build a line to benefit NSW.

I would like to see heavy rail extended right down to Byron bay but of course typical government in fighting stops this

It can be done I think. NSW trains regularly enter QLD (the XPT to Sydney for example).
They just need to get everyone in the room and a clear, easy to follow agreement on who pays for what.
The presence of a state border does not seem to prevent cars flowing across it.

If NSW wants infrastructure on their turf, they should pay for it. The alternative would be to build a bus-rail interchange at Coolangatta and have people transfer over.

Gold Coast Bulletin: $3 billion housing plan approved for Tweed

QuoteMORE than 5500 homes for up to 12,000 people will be built at Cobaki, just west of the Gold Coast Airport, after the NSW Government today gave approval to Leda Development's $3 billion Cobaki Lakes concept plan.

NSW Planning Minister Tony Kelly announced his approval today at a rain-drenched media conference on the 594 ha site just south of the Queensland border, which has been earmarked for residential development for almost 30 years.

...

Cobaki Lakes is just a stone's throw away from the border near Tugun, and would be serviced by the Tugun station on the Gold Coast line.  Time to sort out cross border funding issues.

It is a fair bet that the QLD Government's reluctance to extend the line further south is in part due to not wanting to provide subsidised services for NSW residents.

Just back from Byron Bay and Suffolk Beach.  Massive traffic jams getting in and out including lots of shuttle vans and buses full of backpackers and tourists.  There is a massive opportunity to reopen the mothballed/abandoned line and connect to Queensland.  This should be above the Toowoomba Range for IA investment.

In reality, NSW stops at Grafton and Wagga Wagga.  They are the cities where the state government services are based to serve the border regions.  Albury receives Victorian news bulletins and most national retailers serve their northern NSW services from warehouses at Warwick and in and around Brisbane.  Under agreement between Qld and NSW, NSW people get their tertiary health care at Gold Coast hospitals.  Lismore people use Coolangatta as 'their' airport.  Sadly, the state wars (where neither side agrees) would require that the federal government stump up some money for extension of narrow gauge into NSW.  At Murwillumbah a few weeks ago and saw the same buses as run on Gold Coast operating services back to Tweed Heads and Coolangatta.  Yes, the border is an imaginary line, but a chasm in the minds of public servants.

Quote from: colinw on December 06, 2010, 17:20:14 PM
It is a fair bet that the QLD Government's reluctance to extend the line further south is in part due to not wanting to provide subsidised services for NSW residents.

Translink already subsidises Surfside bus routes running to the border at Coolangatta/Tweed Heads. If bus services are already subsidised, what's wrong with rail services?

Passenger rail services are already performed by the XPT, these cross the border, but I wonder who subsidises the time it spends running the QLD leg?
NSW probably.

Quote from: WTN on December 23, 2010, 20:30:04 PM

Quote from: colinw on December 06, 2010, 17:20:14 PM
It is a fair bet that the QLD Government's reluctance to extend the line further south is in part due to not wanting to provide subsidised services for NSW residents.

Translink already subsidises Surfside bus routes running to the border at Coolangatta/Tweed Heads. If bus services are already subsidised, what's wrong with rail services?

Separate ticketing systems i believe (Qld/TL uses Cubic and NSW uses Wayfarer).  You can travel on a TL ticket across the border, however if you start your journey in NSW, it falls under the NSW fare system.

Quote from: Arnz on December 23, 2010, 21:31:48 PM

Quote from: WTN on December 23, 2010, 20:30:04 PM

Quote from: colinw on December 06, 2010, 17:20:14 PM
It is a fair bet that the QLD Government's reluctance to extend the line further south is in part due to not wanting to provide subsidised services for NSW residents.

Translink already subsidises Surfside bus routes running to the border at Coolangatta/Tweed Heads. If bus services are already subsidised, what's wrong with rail services?

Separate ticketing systems i believe (Qld/TL uses Cubic and NSW uses Wayfarer).  You can travel on a TL ticket across the border, however if you start your journey in NSW, it falls under the NSW fare system.

Is this true even for routes that are part of the TL network and run predominantly in QLD (eg route 700)? I can understand separate ticketing if the route is not part of TL and runs predominantly in NSW.

Why not just lobby the Federal Government to re-draw the state borders. It would have minimal costs and solve the problem immediately.
Annex Northern NSW!!!

Tramtrain
The NT31/NT32 Xpt service is a joint venture between NSW and Queensland. The Queensland Government contribute to the running costs of the Xpt once it crosses the border. The problem of the NSW/QLD state border has been haunting both states since the 1880s. There are two towns that are a testimony to this problem, these towns are Wallangarra and Jennings. Neither of these towns were originally planned to be built, but as Queensland were unwilling to spend money on infrastructure that did not directly serve its residents the railway line stopped at Wallangarra instead of linking with the NSW Main North at Tenterfield. Also in thought it may not seem like much to annex the Northern areas of NSW but in reality it would be a costly. As we are deemed a democracy you would need to hold a referendum to see if the people wished to become Queenslanders and if Queenslanders would they want this area to become part of Queensland. Then there would be the extra costs involved by the governemnt, for things like emergency services education councils etc as they would have to pick up the tab if the NSW government pulled out. Business would be slugged as well as they would have to re-register business names and swap things from NSW to Queensland, Then there is the costs that would fall on the residents, for things like changing insurance policies changing drivers licenses and car rego i doubt they would be allowed to change them for free. Then there would be the cost to NSW of loosing those people and the finacial losses it would bring so in the end it will cost one side or the other.

Its easy to run a truck bus car or train across a border if the infrastructure is already there but when the infrastructure is not there and needs to be built thats when state lines state pride and state money start becoming the issue, What needs to be considered is if NSW are not prepared to fund and operate rail services in the area then they should step aside and let someone in who can and will run them, and Queensland needs to look are they prepared to cross the border with infrastructure that will not be serving the tax payers who funded it, Or are the ghosts of the past going to hold this idea back. Forward looking is needed and i dont mean 3 or 4 years to the next state or federal election, its time the people were considered ahead of a individual persons desire to be a politician.

scott

Quote from: Stillwater on December 23, 2010, 19:11:17 PM
Lismore people use Coolangatta as 'their' airport. 

Just going to point out here that the airport is a private corporation, regulated by the Federal Government and situated in two states. The fact that Lismore people use it as "their" airport is no failure of any State Government.

Quote from: WTN on December 23, 2010, 22:54:35 PM

Quote from: Arnz on December 23, 2010, 21:31:48 PM
Separate ticketing systems i believe (Qld/TL uses Cubic and NSW uses Wayfarer).  You can travel on a TL ticket across the border, however if you start your journey in NSW, it falls under the NSW fare system.

Is this true even for routes that are part of the TL network and run predominantly in QLD (eg route 700)? I can understand separate ticketing if the route is not part of TL and runs predominantly in NSW.

I don't think so, the 7xx routes are all said to be Gold Coast services and operate as such. For the 700 (and I think most other routes) Tweed Heads is literally the only stop south of the border, so no need to accept NSW tickets or vice versa. A few milk runs might cross the border in other places but I think they just fall under one system or the other as they never stray far.

The Bulletin -> Green light given to Cobaki

This is across the border in NSW, but would be served by Tugun station on the extension of the heavy rail to Coolangatta.  Interstate co-operation is necessary.

QuoteTHE Leda Group's 20-year struggle to get the Cobaki development off the ground for Tweed Heads is over following the NSW Joint Regional Planning Panel's approval of the first 916 lots.

The panel last night ticked off on the first three sections of the Cobaki master plan, which is valued at more than $3 billion in total and expected to create 20,000 jobs.

Gold Coast developer Bob Ell said he was relieved to finally have the approvals in place for the second of the company's major residential developments.

"We will deliver the most exciting and affordable range of homes ever seen on the Tweed," he said.

Located at the base of the Tweed hinterland adjacent to Tugun Bypass and John Flynn Hospital, Cobaki will eventually be home to 12,000 residences.

About 100ha of land will be set aside for conservation and Leda will turn another 30ha into sports fields and parklands.

Leda is also the developer of a master-planned community at Kings Forest near Kingscliff.

Quote from: colinw on May 27, 2011, 07:58:01 AM
This is across the border in NSW, but would be served by Tugun station on the extension of the heavy rail to Coolangatta.  Interstate co-operation is necessary, but don't stay up waiting for it!

Fixed!

SurfRail, very true.

If the line was extended to byron bay and was on a proper alignment where we could run 200km trains then when the HSR is finally built it can bypass these little towns to provide a faster service to sydney

Quote from: O_128 on May 27, 2011, 10:54:18 AM
If the line was extended to byron bay and was on a proper alignment where we could run 200km trains then when the HSR is finally built it can bypass these little towns to provide a faster service to sydney

I certainly think they are shortchanging us with the current design concept for Coolangatta Station.  Terminal stations can work, but they are less than ideal in a place like that.

Probably better to tunnel into the terminal and out again, following the M1/A1 towards Kingscliff and the coast.  The elevated option doesn't preclude some form of rail service further south, but it would be a dreadful compromise and not conducive to HSR.

The only advantage of the current plan that I can see that it is so far off into the never-never some common sense might prevail and the design will be revised, but that can be a double-edged sword.  Although Maroochydore's current design is better than it was before, it still involves a triangle and a terminal station. 

The change of government down south may also mean NSW is more amenable to working together on it (moreso with a very possible change of government on the way here).

Regarding the line into Coolangatta, I have never liked the idea of it hooking around under the runway to end up facing toward the beach.

I would much prefer the line to somehow cross to the north of the airport between the runway and Boyd St and then follow the Adina Ave (or was it Coolangatta Road) alignment of the old line to Tweed Heads - you can still see hints of the old formation between the main road and the airport.  Sorry, a bit hazy about this area, been a few years since we had a holiday at Coolangatta.  The Coolangatta Station would then be to the east of the airport but facing south, so that the line could continue across the border alongside the Gold Coast Hwy.

Access to downtown Coolangatta & Tweed Heads should be via connecting bus, or by extending the Light Rail into Coolangatta and perhaps across the border to terminate at the Tweed Mall.

Quote from: colinw on May 27, 2011, 11:46:28 AM

I would much prefer the line to somehow cross to the north of the airport between the runway and Boyd St and then follow the Adina Ave (or was it Coolangatta Road) alignment of the old line to Tweed Heads - you can still see hints of the old formation between the main road and the airport.  Sorry, a bit hazy about this area, been a few years since we had a holiday at Coolangatta.  The Coolangatta Station would then be on to the east of the airport but facing south, so that the line could continue across the border alongside the Gold Coast Hwy.

Access to downtown Coolangatta & Tweed Heads should be via connecting bus, or by extending the Light Rail into Coolangatta and perhaps across the border to terminate at the Tweed Mall.

The station location they have picked is fine, just the direction it points! 

Tunnelling is probably needed to do it properly around the airport precinct.  That allows you to connect to the motorway grade stretch of the Gold Coast Highway (formerly part of the Pacific Highway) and the M1, which would provide the fastest, most direct route south to a station at Banora Point near the Homemart. 

Going further along, you have the possibility of somehow using the cutting they are putting through Sextons Hill at the moment for the motorway, and then identifying a coastal corridor all the way to Ballina/Lismore and beyond.

LRT will provide the interchanging needed to go north or east from the airport to Coolangatta/Tweed, Bilinga, Kirra etc, with buses feeding out of Tugun and Elanora stations to nearby areas.

Quote from: colinw on May 27, 2011, 07:58:01 AM
The Bulletin -> Green light given to Cobaki

This is across the border in NSW, but would be served by Tugun station on the extension of the heavy rail to Coolangatta.  Interstate co-operation is necessary.

QuoteTHE Leda Group's 20-year struggle to get the Cobaki development off the ground for Tweed Heads is over following the NSW Joint Regional Planning Panel's approval of the first 916 lots.

The panel last night ticked off on the first three sections of the Cobaki master plan, which is valued at more than $3 billion in total and expected to create 20,000 jobs.

Gold Coast developer Bob Ell said he was relieved to finally have the approvals in place for the second of the company's major residential developments.

"We will deliver the most exciting and affordable range of homes ever seen on the Tweed," he said.

Located at the base of the Tweed hinterland adjacent to Tugun Bypass and John Flynn Hospital, Cobaki will eventually be home to 12,000 residences.

About 100ha of land will be set aside for conservation and Leda will turn another 30ha into sports fields and parklands.

Leda is also the developer of a master-planned community at Kings Forest near Kingscliff.

Wouldnt it be F*****G painful to have to deal with the dual timezones?

The main justification for the continuing existence of States is "The tyranny of distance" argument - how could such a vast country be managed centrally? Well for example my main hobby is home brewing and I regularly buy equipment and ingredients from Perth or Melbourne that arrives within a couple of days. I even buy chilled yeast vials from Perth which arrive still cold. On my forums I am more likely to be interacting with a guy in Warrnambool than in Caboolture.
Most of us live our lives under the gaze of the ATO, Centrelink etc anyway.

I remember an article I read years ago where the writer ( a fierce Statist) was accusing the Hawke Government of secret plans to create "provincial" governments and destroy the states. As an example he said that if Caboolture Shire, Redcliffe and Pine Rivers were amalgamated the area would be just right as a "province" or "departement French Style" within a 2 tier goverment. Of course this would never happen............ haha.
Well Queensland is half way there.

Quote from: BribieG on May 31, 2011, 13:31:42 PM
The main justification for the continuing existence of States is "The tyranny of distance" argument - how could such a vast country be managed centrally? Well for example my main hobby is home brewing and I regularly buy equipment and ingredients from Perth or Melbourne that arrives within a couple of days. I even buy chilled yeast vials from Perth which arrive still cold. On my forums I am more likely to be interacting with a guy in Warrnambool than in Caboolture.
Most of us live our lives under the gaze of the ATO, Centrelink etc anyway.

I remember an article I read years ago where the writer ( a fierce Statist) was accusing the Hawke Government of secret plans to create "provincial" governments and destroy the states. As an example he said that if Caboolture Shire, Redcliffe and Pine Rivers were amalgamated the area would be just right as a "province" or "departement French Style" within a 2 tier goverment. Of course this would never happen............ haha.
Well Queensland is half way there.

Campbell Neman has made many jabs at the uselessness of the state government, I wouldnt be surprised if in the nexxt few decades we see a move away from states, SEQ+Northern NSW would be a good province and it encourages the regional provinces to grow. Though they may be to big if done on a population scale where syndey would most likely be its own province.

Just something to think about

I've never been convinced by arguments about the abolition of the states.  People get cheesed off with any government, and getting rid of the states won't magically solve health, education, PT and the provision of other front-line services.

Quote from: SurfRail on May 31, 2011, 17:07:00 PM
I've never been convinced by arguments about the abolition of the states.  People get cheesed off with any government, and getting rid of the states won't magically solve health, education, PT and the provision of other front-line services.

Indeed, but I do not support the states being in Industrial Relations, which they still are in spite of recent moves AIUI.  Just have one agency.  Even worse is the current arrangements for health.  This really requires a federal takeover, as the states cannot fund this one.  And not a KRudd style half baked takeover either.  Also the notion of Transport projects requiring Federal funding is something of a shocker.  Each state should be able to look after itself.

I don't think this has anything to do with the states, nor do I think that abolishing the states would achieve anything other than creation of a bunch of jumped up Campbell Newman or Ron Clarke clones in the regional Governments.

Given that the rail service to this area would be within Queensland bar a short section near the airport, and the arrangement with NSW allowing construction of the short section through NSW already exists, the problem here is just the usual complete lack of initiative by the QLD Government failing to provide promised services within a sensible time frame.  If you recall, the original promises about Elanora, Tugun & Coolangatta would have had the Varsity Lakes to Elanora section under construction by now for a 2012 opening, with Tugun by 2015.

Its just the usual cultural thing that seems to be holding QLD public transport in the dark ages, and would be no different if this new estate happened to be within QLD. (A fact proven that I am hearing constant ads on my favourite radio station promoting small block land releases at Flagstone).

Until we fix the "can't do" culture of public transport in this state, very little is going to change.

Gold Coast Bulletin -> Can-do's thoughts on Coast

QuoteLNP leader Campbell Newman brought his "listening tour" to the Gold Coast yesterday, throwing his support behind extending the train line to Coolangatta while admitting he knew nothing of a cruise-ship terminal for the Broadwater.

In an address to a Surfers Paradise-Broadbeach Chamber of Commerce lunch, Mr Newman admitted his knowledge of the terminal was minimal but promised to support the concept if it was good for the Coast.

"I don't know enough about that one, quite frankly," he said when asked about the idea at a forum mediated by Bulletin editor Dean Gould.

"The bottom line is it would be great to have for the Gold Coast but I don't know the details of the proposals."

But Mr Newman was emphatic in his support for a rail service to Gold Coast Airport and Coolangatta but stipulated it needed support from the Federal Government.

"As the (former) chair of Council of Mayors South East Queensland, I am on the public record talking about our seven big projects we were advocating," he said.

"The Commonwealth needs to come to the party ... the trouble is there is no money. The state is going bust so I can't commit to do that but I can tell you now I want it to happen."

To find out Mr Newman's ideas to boost tourism see page 11 of today's Gold Coast Bulletin.

Quote

"The Commonwealth needs to come to the party ... the trouble is there is no money. The state is going bust so I can't commit to do that but I can tell you now I want it to happen."

Well duh! Spend all the money on concrete and what do you expect?

I would support extension of the LRT into Helensvale to make the connection before thinking about any heavy rail extension to the Airport, as there is already a bus that does that.

Quote from: tramtrain on June 01, 2011, 09:42:56 AM
I would support extension of the LRT into Helensvale to make the connection before thinking about any heavy rail extension to the Airport, as there is already a bus that does that.

Agreed, although if it came to a choice between Burleigh or Helensvale, I would be going with Burleigh first. 

Once at Burleigh, it makes little sense to keep going to the Airport without stronger links in the north.  The 2 lines end up being spitting distance from each other from Tallebudgera onwards so super-frequent buses will be fine from Burleigh to the border until funding eventuates.

Quote from: SurfRail on June 01, 2011, 10:59:07 AM
Agreed, although if it came to a choice between Burleigh or Helensvale, I would be going with Burleigh first. 

Which direction has the higher bus patronage?  That should guide the extension.

While I am in favour of the LRT linking to the heavy rail, it should be treated primarily as the high frequency spine of the Gold Coast's local transport system, so if patronage to/from Burleigh is higher than to/from Helensvale then that is the way it should go first.

Quote from: colinw on June 01, 2011, 11:25:15 AM

Quote from: SurfRail on June 01, 2011, 10:59:07 AM
Agreed, although if it came to a choice between Burleigh or Helensvale, I would be going with Burleigh first. 

Which direction has the higher bus patronage?  That should guide the extension.

While I am in favour of the LRT linking to the heavy rail, it should be treated primarily as the high frequency spine of the Gold Coast's local transport system, so if patronage to/from Burleigh is higher than to/from Helensvale then that is the way it should go first.

Almost certainly Burleigh, and the densities and existing services along the highway corridor reflect that.  Not as great as the stretch from Broadbeach to Southport, but still significantly higher than Griffith to Helensvale.

Quote from: colinw on June 01, 2011, 09:08:57 AM
Gold Coast Bulletin -> Can-do's thoughts on Coast

QuoteLNP leader Campbell Newman brought his "listening tour" to the Gold Coast yesterday, throwing his support behind extending the train line to Coolangatta while admitting he knew nothing of a cruise-ship terminal for the Broadwater.

In an address to a Surfers Paradise-Broadbeach Chamber of Commerce lunch, Mr Newman admitted his knowledge of the terminal was minimal but promised to support the concept if it was good for the Coast.

"I don't know enough about that one, quite frankly," he said when asked about the idea at a forum mediated by Bulletin editor Dean Gould.

"The bottom line is it would be great to have for the Gold Coast but I don't know the details of the proposals."

But Mr Newman was emphatic in his support for a rail service to Gold Coast Airport and Coolangatta but stipulated it needed support from the Federal Government.

"As the (former) chair of Council of Mayors South East Queensland, I am on the public record talking about our seven big projects we were advocating," he said.

"The Commonwealth needs to come to the party ... the trouble is there is no money. The state is going bust so I can't commit to do that but I can tell you now I want it to happen."

To find out Mr Newman's ideas to boost tourism see page 11 of today's Gold Coast Bulletin.

Translation: "I don't support state money going to the Gold Coast line extension", says Campbell Newman.

Mealy mouthed non announcement.  "I support this idea in principle, but don't intending doing anything about it other than using it as a wedge to beat up the Federal Government."

NOT IMPRESSED!

If the LNP are going to win my vote on transport issues, they are going to have to come up with credible, costed policies, not vague crap like this.  Not good enough.*


* = this is NOT endorsement of the performance of the ALP, and should not be taken as such.

Quote"The Commonwealth needs to come to the party ... the trouble is there is no money. The state is going bust so I can't commit to do that but I can tell you now I want it to happen."

Time to get use to the reality people. Infrastructure Australia is being used as an Automatic Teller Machine and it is going to run dry! It seems that every single project now "MUST need Federal support blah blah" seriously!!!

Stop buying so much concrete on extensions!
Stop wasting so much money on roads in rivers etc!

" IATM"

Infrastructure Australia Automatic Teller Machine

Quote from: colinw on June 01, 2011, 12:22:06 PM
Mealy mouthed non announcement.  "I support this idea in principle, but don't intending doing anything about it other than using it as a wedge to beat up the Federal Government."

NOT IMPRESSED!

If the LNP are going to win my vote on transport issues, they are going to have to come up with credible, costed policies, not vague crap like this.  Not good enough.*


* = this is NOT endorsement of the performance of the ALP, and should not be taken as such.

As are many others who see through Road Centric Newmans Tunnel Vision, these pathetic espousals laking both substance and credibility could well lose the election for the LNP.
Time for Mr Newman and the LNP to put up or shut up.