RAIL - Back On Track Forum

Quote from: TrainGreg on November 20, 2010, 07:57:03 AM
Some futher points:
1) Ipswich starts at Goodna Station not Redbank (Gales is the last station in Brisbane City). Goodna has a very large patronage and it is difficult to find a car parking space after 07:30. We need to tell QR that.

There are many places where car parking is not adequate. Perhaps it is just as well that ipswich shopping precint is almost dead otherwise there wouldn't be enough parking at ipswich.

Quote from: TrainGreg on November 20, 2010, 07:57:03 AM2) The current Ipswich service in the morning peak does have extra trains when people are going to work there. The new timetable is inadequate. It seems to be the case that Translink is the tail wagging the QR dog. How are QR empolyees going to get to work on time with only a 30min service?

I only know one QR employee who catches the train. The rest drive even those working at bowen hills with frequent trains. So they will probably continue to drive.

Quote from: TrainGreg on November 20, 2010, 07:57:03 AM
6) Is Translink capable of properly corordinating trains and buses even if it were possible to run buses on time?

As long as they use their computer in the air conditioned office to work out bus timetables the buses will never be on time. This is why the new timetables for westside buses will be a failure. One bus will go through six school zones yet in the times of those school zones it has the same amount of time to do the trip as it does when it can go 60kph instead of 40kph. That isn't even taking into consideration several other factors. So I would say no they aren't.

Quote from: TrainGreg on November 20, 2010, 07:57:03 AM
7) what about running trains to Ipswich express to Darra  stopping at Toowong and Indooroopilly?

Quick Greg duck for cover!!! I said this previously in a different thread and was told it was stupid to have two different express stopping patterns. I personally see no problem with it and think it would be a great idea even though that would have a negative impact on me.

Quote from: TrainGreg on November 20, 2010, 07:57:03 AM
I think trains are slower now than they were in 1979-1980. Is that  due to more passengers or just easing of timetables so it is almost impossible to be late? What about timetables that state the EARLIST time of departure from a station. It might cut out extraordinary long  waits at Corinda on some trains.

I can think of a good reason for not having a earliest departure time. It would be exactly the same as the departure time now. Why? Because they would just name the current departure time as the new earliest departure time. Also isn't there often crowding around bowen hills? Changing the departure time would then surely cause problems further along the line. So it would just be shifting a problem from one location where it impacts one train to a spot impacting several trains.  Even on express services that run now we have to wait for signals to go green or wait for trains in front.

Quote from: david on November 20, 2010, 17:31:47 PM
I did not say I wasn't in support of the extra stations on the Springfield line. Rather I was merely pointing out that we cannot make comparisons between Brisbane and Perth and ESPECIALLY Mandurah and the Ipswich lines. They are completely different.

Other point on the timetable, is anyone concerned about the first service from Ipswich arriving at Central at 5:35am? Surely there is grounds for an earlier service?

Well what do you think the grounds for an earlier service might be?  I used to catch the first service of the day which is the same as the 5:35 arriving central. It had around three quarters of the seats used which is more than off peak generally but does that warrant a earlier service? I'm not sure

My only comment would be will the express trains from ipswich stop on the same platform as the all stations trains? If not will there be a big enough gap for those who have trouble walking to get to the lift and change platforms. In my experience the answer is no. I have had trouble changing onto an all stations train from an express and I ran!

Quote from: justanotheruser on November 21, 2010, 08:53:58 AM
My only comment would be will the express trains from ipswich stop on the same platform as the all stations trains?

Almost certainly not.

Quote from: justanotheruser on November 21, 2010, 08:52:13 AM
Well what do you think the grounds for an earlier service might be?  I used to catch the first service of the day which is the same as the 5:35 arriving central. It had around three quarters of the seats used which is more than off peak generally but does that warrant a earlier service? I'm not sure

Huh?  I think you may have answered your own question.

Where I work is shortly moving to somewhere with no parking, and I can think of at least one person who is unhappy that they will be unable to start work as early anymore.  First service will arrive at 5:43am.

There is definitely a case for earlier services, which would be used by some people.  Also, on the weekend you cannot reach the city by 6am.  Ouch!

Quote from: justanotheruser on November 21, 2010, 08:51:51 AM
I can think of a good reason for not having a earliest departure time. It would be exactly the same as the departure time now.

I think what he meant was that the times be squeezed so that the departure times are the earliest achievable time.

So for this timetable overhaul, what would've stopped them just running a 15 minute service through to Richlands, and then made Ipswich services all stations to Darra, and permanently express to Milton, stopping only at Indroopilly & Toowong? Allthough obviously preferable/better to have both tiers of service at 15 minute intervals, you could get away with the ex Ipswich trains being every 30 minutes since journey times would be reduced.

Quote from: Gazza on November 21, 2010, 17:18:02 PM
So for this timetable overhaul, what would've stopped them just running a 15 minute service through to Richlands, and then made Ipswich services all stations to Darra, and permanently express to Milton, stopping only at Indroopilly & Toowong? Allthough obviously preferable/better to have both tiers of service at 15 minute intervals, you could get away with the ex Ipswich trains being every 30 minutes since journey times would be reduced.

Many would agree and some of us have raised that approach before as well.  I suspect that the costs in terms of services, trains and crews was not what Government was prepared to fund. ie. a 15 minute frequency to Richlands.

I have no doubt that what you suggest will be implemented down the track.  The same approach is done in Melbourne eg. Pakenham and Frankston lines join at Caulfield.  Expresses in from Caulfield one line (although it does seem to roll around a bit).

Can see a similar variation happening to and  from Petrie when MBRL commences.  Possibly Caboolture to Petrie all stations, then express to Northgate, Bowen Hills .. Kippa Ring to Bowen Hills all stations.  They could alternate too I suppose.

Yes, I'm sure money is what it really has come down to.

QuoteCan see a similar variation happening to and  from Petrie when MBRL commences.  Possibly Caboolture to Petrie all stations, then express to Northgate, Bowen Hills .. Kippa Ring to Bowen Hills all stations.  They could alternate too I suppose.

What are the chances we will see Kippa-Ring-Petrie shuttle services?

Quote from: ozbob on November 21, 2010, 17:29:17 PM
I have no doubt that what you suggest will be implemented down the track.  The same approach is done in Melbourne eg. Pakenham and Frankston lines join at Caulfield.  Expresses in from Caulfield one line (although it does seem to roll around a bit).

Another good example is the Armidale/Thornlie line in Perth.

Quote from: tramtrain on November 21, 2010, 20:44:07 PM

QuoteCan see a similar variation happening to and  from Petrie when MBRL commences.  Possibly Caboolture to Petrie all stations, then express to Northgate, Bowen Hills .. Kippa Ring to Bowen Hills all stations.  They could alternate too I suppose.

What are the chances we will see Kippa-Ring-Petrie shuttle services?

I would say zilch. They have no reason not to extend the Petrie terminators. All the stations will be full length and dual track so there won't be any capacity constraints. In fact IIRC they already said their intentions were to extend the Petrie terminators.

Media release 22nd November 2010

SEQ: New timetable a step in the right direction for the Ipswich line

RAIL Back On Track (http://backontrack.org) a web based community support group for rail and public transport and an advocate for public transport commuters welcomes the draft new timetable for the Ipswich line as a step in the right direction (1).

Robert Dow, Spokesman for RAIL Back On Track said:

"There are a number of positives with the proposed changes, namely:

    * Peak express patterns are now simplified
    * Faster express services than the current ones
    * Counter peak frequency is no longer worse than off peak frequency
    * Evening hourly frequency on weeknights no longer applies
    * 15 minute frequency on the inner part is now full time
    * 15 minute frequency as far as Darra for the first time
    * Counter peak services are now clock face
    * One additional outbound weekday through service to Rosewood
    * No compromise clock face timetables

"However, there are a number of aspects which remain to be improved:

    * Peak express trains to/from Ipswich do not serve Toowong
    * Quite a bit of room for improvement in the peak train speed to and from Ipswich
    * High loading station, Oxley, misses out on any kind of express service
    * Slower train services to/from Ipswich off peak
    * Counter peak service is still only 15 minutes.  This is a problem largely at Milton, where it falls short of the mark, however it remains an issue for Toowong and Indooroopilly
    * Shuttle services to Rosewood still apply to the majority of trips.  Why not through services with the rear 3 cars locked with a 2 man crew west of Ipswich?
    * Still hourly or reduced frequency on Sunday mornings
    * Still an early finish on Sundays
    * No improvement to first inbound services on either weekdays or weekends, except from Rosewood
    * New timetable is not to take effect on the opening of the Richlands branch.

"The rationale for not including Toowong and Oxley in the express pattern does need to properly communicated if feedback is not acted upon.

"There are now opportunities to make use of the increased frequency and capacity on the western line, particularly from Darra inwards by more bus feeder routes into the stations. More bus feeder routes into Darra for example would half the journey time for some passengers presently travelling on peak western bus routes to and from the CBD.  A modified BUZ 450 route could be extended into Darra for example to allow passengers the choice between a fast rail journey or a congestion plod on the western roads."

"Overall, the new timetable is a huge forward step for the Ipswich line and should implemented as soon as possible, preferably when Richlands rail services commence in January 2011 (2)."

Reference:

1. http://www.translink.com.au/travel-information/service-updates/queensland-rail-timetable-changes/ipswich-and-rosewood-line

2. http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=4881.0

Contact:

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org

QuoteHigh loading station, Oxley, misses out on any kind of express service

I use Oxley, and I'm unsure if it necessarily "needs" one though since its not really an arduous journey into the CBD. Would be more of a nicety then anything.

Yes, purpose of highlighting is to ensure they properly explain the rationale.  I explained to a lady this morning at Oxley who was complaining about the lack of express services that frequency is still the same in the peak (but more seats as it will be Darra and Richland starters) BUT you now have 15 minute frequency around the clock.  This changed things a lot!

^Hmmm, it's just that you don't want to come across as expecting too much, and I reckon expecting expresses from Oxley might be doing that since time savings would be minimal and they don't have to deal with a long trip compared to many others.

For a station like Oxley that is 'closer in' I wouldn't want to see services provided in a manner that cause people to gravitate towards particular services/overload things/make journey times longer for people on expresses who already have to deal with a longer commute.
The only reason these expresses should be stopping after Darra is to let inbound commuters access their final destination, hence why Toowong needs to be included along with Milton and the 'dro....Mostly 'set down' pax basically.

For Oxley, high frequency all stoppers are the way to go since the station sits within the tipping point where wait times can be similar to the actual journey time to the CBD (Well, i guess that's not the case anymore since it's getting 4 tph, but you see where I'm coming from) I guess another way to put it is that an Oxley traveller could be the type where a TUAG service better meets there needs than a timetabled 'express' type service that would suit someone coming from afar.

But i see where you're coming from, the rationale needs to be explained to the public rather than us.

Quote from: Gazza on November 22, 2010, 12:36:58 PM
For a station like Oxley that is 'closer in' I wouldn't want to see services provided in a manner that cause people to gravitate towards particular services/overload things/make journey times longer for people on expresses who already have to deal with a longer commute.

Oxley is already high loading, and has probably more significant bus connections than Darra.  What the proposed timetable will do is give people an incentive to drive to Darra instead of Oxley.

I would have preferred an approach similar to the new Illawarra line (Sydney) timetable, where a fast train leaves Cronulla, shortly followed by a slower limited stops train.  The fast train runs express Sutherland-Hurstville then express Hurstville-Redfern, whereas the slower train stops at all stations to Hurstville and only misses a few stations inbound from Hurstville.  This means that everyone gets a good service.

Oxley tends to be the destination for drivers along Blunder road and down 17 Mile Rocks road (eg. ex Durack, and Jindalee suburbs).  I don't think the timetable will change them to Darra at all by road.  Better bus might. Darra will ease slightly with Richlands opening, most into Darra are from Harcourt Road and across the highway ex Inala, Richlands, Forest Lake, Springfield as well, and some from further out along the highway eg. Goodna, Redbank Plains ... 

Some of these (ex Inala, Richlands, Forest Lake, Springfield)  have told me they will be going to Richlands (peak frequency is not too bad at all).  Darra is also expanding parking as well.  I expect Darra to actually ease a little but no change at Oxley, even if Oxley continues bypassed by express trains.  I actually see now more pax in and out of Darra by bus than Oxley, and this will remain I think. I am generally around both the stations every day or so.

I think the sheer pax loading is the major argument for Oxley inclusion, I don't think the car parking argument is valid really. 

QuoteI think the sheer pax loading is the major argument for Oxley inclusion

^But with Oxley, are people treating it mainly as a destination (Eg live in Ipswich, work in Oxley) or mainly as an origin (Eg live in Oxley, 17 Mile Rocks, etc, work in the city)?

If its the case is the former, and it's up there with the likes of Indooropilly and Toowong and Milton, then by all means stop the expresses there so people can get to work.

But if its just happens to be a station that a lot of people use for people working in the city then I don't see why that makes them 'deserve' any sort of express service. It's not far out enough!

QuoteIt's not far out enough!

Agree, not fussed at all about Oxley.  Just making the point that the car parking argument is not a reason, it is loading that is probably a more relevant factor.  But I don't think Oxley will be getting expresses in 2011.  Toowong is a different story.  Be interesting what they say about that at the consultation.  I do intend to ask what the reasons are for its non inclusion in the draft timetable express pattern.

I would be surprised if UQ and Student Union are not raising it as a issue as well (if they are not they should be, even if only to know what the reasons are for the decision).

Quote from: ozbob on November 19, 2010, 09:36:34 AM
Lack of free potable water on platforms 1, 2, 3 Darra ... HAHAHA caught you, joking ...

With the frequency out of Darra you won't have time for a sip ...

What frequency if you are travelling westbound from Darra off peak?
With the new oven style platform with no protection from the summer westerlies this Taj Mahal station becomes a deterrent to commuters, looks great if one does not have to use it

Quote from: TrainGreg on November 19, 2010, 16:53:55 PM
Some Negatives
1) Lack of services to Ipswich in the morning peak. A lot of people work in Ipswich and many travel to schoo/uni  in Ipswich but it is only a 30 minute service. It will in fact be worse that the present one! Surely some of the empty runs to Ipswich could be converted to stoping trains for those who work/study in Ipswich.

I agree. If these empty trains need to get to Ipswich from Roma Street in about 35 minutes then run them express from Roma Street to Ipswich with some passengers. I'm sure that patronage would increase considerably if there were such fast services. If these trains need to get to Ipswich in about 40 minutes then a few stops at major alighting stations could be added e.g. Milton, Toowong, Indooroopilly, Darra (in the future when Springfield Line is complete) and Redbank for Redbank railyard workers (earlier AM peak) & Plaza workers (later AM peak). The counter peak patronage is probably so low because of the poor frequency of services as well as less road traffic.

The reverse situation could apply in the afternoon peak to get trains back to Brisbane from Ipswich.

Regarding Oxley, I feel that the loadings and distance DO justify an express service.  However, it seems that I am in the minority here.

I don't necessarily believe Oxley needs an express pattern however the current 23 minutes to Roma street could be much better in terms of running time. Trains these days stop and start better, passenger loads will be lower with only a richlands or darra stop before Oxley so 23 minutes becoming 20minutes or better then express is not really an issue from my perspective.

Take your pick either Darra or Oxley, Darra being the junction station for the Richlands line has a priority for operational reasons as does Corinda being the conecting station for the cross country bus service to PAH.
Unfortunately the cake is only so big and can only be eaten once.

Darra does have more pax than Oxley.  I was never suggesting missing Darra.

QuoteI don't necessarily believe Oxley needs an express pattern however the current 23 minutes to Roma street could be much better in terms of running time

QuoteRegarding Oxley, I feel that the loadings and distance DO justify an express service.

I'm looking internationally here, but the Victoria line in London takes 28:00 to travel from Walthamstow Central to Victoria.

Walthamstow Central never has express services operating out of it (Along with the whole line), and the Underground portion of the station has 10,000,000 entries/exits per year.

PS, Bob, where's the link to that document that has patronage for each station?

http://www.qrnational.com.au/MediaCentre/MediaReleases/Documents/Passenger_Load_Survey_2009.pdf

2010 stuff has not been made available public as far as I am aware ..

Quote from: Gazza on November 23, 2010, 17:55:28 PM
Walthamstow Central never has express services operating out of it (Along with the whole line), and the Underground portion of the station has 10,000,000 entries/exits per year.

Soo, it has 2 tracks with a 4tph all station tube service, and 2 tracks with an express service?  Is that what I am to understand?

No, just 2 tracks of all stations, with approx 20tph in peak (Not sure off off peak frequency), could hardly call it unacceptable or needing of improvement.

Obviously their loadings are quite a bit higher and Oxley only ever reaches 9tph, but I guess point I'm trying to make is that below journey times of say 30 mins, high frequency is better than express.....For this reason I've always wondered why they bother with expresses on the Ferny Grove line.

I guess another thing to consider is because its only a 23 minute trip to Roma St, time savings for Oxley pax running express will be minimal, especially if they are heading to non CBD centres like Indooroopilly.

Edit: Hmmm, that load survey shows Toowong being one rank above Indooroopilly in AM alightings. Interesting....

Well they couldn't have expresses unless there are track amplifications further inbound.

I have been contacted by some confused about the Rosewood shuttles.  I have confirmed with TransLink that all shuttles are rail services as per timetable.

Some feedback about timings of some services has been received and this will be considered as part of the consultation processes.

From The Satellite 24th November 2010 page 8

Increased train services

Regarding comparable stations to Oxley, if anyone is interested:
Lidcombe: 16.61 km from Central
North Strathfield:    13.38 km from Central

Both of these stations have an all-express all day service (well, Lidcombe is about to lose its all stoppers anyway).  The latter doesn't even have multiple routes through it, not counting Central Coast trains which don't serve it.  Sydney's Central is more analogous to Roma St.

I'll admit there are other lines which see less express service.
Kingsgrove: 12.62 km from Central sees some express and some all stops.  All express all day starts at Panania (22.55km from Central)
Rockdale: 10.4km from Central sees some express and some all stops.  All express all day at Sutherland (24.64km from Central)

North side doesn't get much express action post the ECRL and driver shortage.

Quote from: somebody on November 23, 2010, 18:10:24 PM

Quote from: Gazza on November 23, 2010, 17:55:28 PM
Walthamstow Central never has express services operating out of it (Along with the whole line), and the Underground portion of the station has 10,000,000 entries/exits per year.

Soo, it has 2 tracks with a 4tph all station tube service, and 2 tracks with an express service?  Is that what I am to understand?

Walthamstow Central station am peak service:
Victoria Line 20tph (all stations)
Chingford Line 4tph (all stations on branch)


There seem to be a few cases of "I want an express to my stationitis" in this thread. BrizCommuter is currently on medication to try and cure his case of this disease. Apparently an increase in reported cases has been noticed by GPs north of Caboolture.  
http://brizcommuter.blogspot.com/2010/11/i-want-express-to-my-stationitis.html

From the Westside News 24th November 2010 page 6

Ipswich line time changes next year

Quote from: BrizCommuter on November 24, 2010, 17:46:03 PM
Walthamstow Central station am peak service:
Victoria Line 20tph (all stations)
Chingford Line 4tph (all stations on branch)

Checking the current timetable, the 8:42 train runs non stop to Liverpool St (9am arrival).  Not saving much time, unfortunately.  Obviously it is not an option on the Victoria Line, unless there is somewhere to pass.

Quote from: somebody on November 24, 2010, 18:30:49 PM

Quote from: BrizCommuter on November 24, 2010, 17:46:03 PM
Walthamstow Central station am peak service:
Victoria Line 20tph (all stations)
Chingford Line 4tph (all stations on branch)

Checking the current timetable, the 8:42 train runs non stop to Liverpool St (9am arrival).  Not saving much time, unfortunately.  Obviously it is not an option on the Victoria Line, unless there is somewhere to pass.

The Chingford Line merges with 3 other lines into very busy dual track line. All trains are all stations on the Chingford Line, but some run express once on the core section. However these trains would just trundle behind an all stations service ahead of it.

The Victoria Line has no passing places. The only London Underground Lines that run "express" are the Piccadilly Line and Metropolitan Line. These lines only run express when they are either parallel to another line (running on separate tracks), or have 4 tracks of their own.

But the Ipswich line DOES have passing places, and so does Caboolture.

Quote from: somebody on November 24, 2010, 18:53:01 PM
But the Ipswich line DOES have passing places, and so does Caboolture.

Probably explains why they have a mix of express and all stations services! 

Indeed.  I don't know why we just had that conversation!

Quote from: somebody on November 24, 2010, 20:16:09 PM
Indeed.  I don't know why we just had that conversation!

The earlier, rather random mention by Gazza of Walthamstow Central.

PS: If you visit London, don't put Walthamstow at the top of places to visit.