RAIL - Back On Track Forum

A lot of the cost escalation has come from a couple of things

-A desire to transfer risk. You see all these big consortiums handling projects on behalf of government because the government is terrified of doing big projects, so they make it someone else's problem and they charge through the nose to carry this risk.

-Too many white collar staff on projects. Related to the above, eg you have several big consortia bidding on projects. These projects are highly complex, so you are paying to have designs done separately 3 or 4 times.

Previously governments would have more inhouse expertise in their department of public works. They would do the design, and then just farm it out to a builder, and act as a simple construction manager.

In the case of Rosehill I expect some of the extra cost is also to do with the soil decontamination works, which I understand is no simple task.

Regardless seeing the high cost of projects like Sydney Metro and, to a lesser extent, GCLR Stage 4 has made me pretty pessimistic about the prospects of us getting Brisbane Subway anytime soon

These huge toll motorway tunnels that have been floated around recently (Gympie Road, Centenary) I can only imagine the government expects to be largely privately funded by TransUrban because they are surely going to cost in excess of $1bn per kilometre as well, as car tunnels have to be built much larger than rail, and include all the added safety stuff (additional ventilation, escape tunnels etc)

https://x.com/ozbob13/status/1833530802422132961

https://x.com/ozbob13/status/1838232373986800024

New Sydney Metro drives a public transport revival | 7NEWS

Cough cough cough!!

https://x.com/ozbob13/status/1855639304288256210

Green with envy

A similar effect can be achieved by running buses, trams, ferries and normal trains frequently all day.

Quote from: #Metro on November 11, 2024, 19:46:08 PMA similar effect can be achieved by running buses, trams, ferries and normal trains frequently all day.

Similar as in the same type of effect But not the same scale and certainly not what Brisbane needs. Buses and trains are in different leagues! Part of an overall network for sure but let's be realistic Buses can never move the volumes rail can and certainly not with the same passenger service, legibility, etc.!!

Quote from: JonnoSimilar as in the same type of effect But not the same scale and certainly not what Brisbane needs. Buses and trains are in different leagues! Part of an overall network for sure but let's be realistic Buses can never move the volumes rail can and certainly not with the same passenger service, legibility, etc.!!

Disagree. Brisbane needs BUZ routes along all major road corridors. This will be true whether a rail-based metro comes into existence or not. Your comments also conflate modes with service characteristics (frequency, span, legibility).

As for your second claim, there is information to the contrary:

BCC buses
80 million pax per year, mainly within BCC

QuoteEach year, our bus network moves more than two-thirds of Brisbane's public transport customers - that's nearly 80 million customers. Due to the size of our bus network, we're reviewing and modernising the network in stages.

https://www.brisbane.qld.gov.au/traffic-and-transport/public-transport/brisbanes-new-bus-network

QR SEQ, Page 40
42.86 million passengers per year.

(And the majority of QR stations are within BCC boundaries.)

https://www.queenslandrail.com.au/about%20us/Documents/Queensland%20Rail%20Annual%20and%20Financial%20Report%202022-23.pdf

Sometimes we make our own objectives harder to achieve by tying them to projects and visions that are not coming soon and not going to be funded any time soon either.

Rail needs to be improved, but funding should probably go into unblocking the existing QR network before new subways.

Quote from: #Metro on November 11, 2024, 21:12:21 PMBCC buses
80 million pax per year, mainly within BCC

That's only because so much more is invested in to buses here. It's not a big number at all and the routes often appear to compete with trains rather than feed to them, which drives down the usefulness of the entire network.
 It is rare to find someone who actually prefers a bus over a train, and if they do it's usually because 'they're empty'. They make sense as part of the overall network but it shouldn't be phrased as competing with rail.

Quote from: SilverChasedThat's only because so much more is invested in to buses here. It is rare to find someone who actually prefers a bus over a train, and if they do it's usually because 'they're empty'.

Buses scale because they are cheap.

At $1 billion/km a rail-based metro is not coming to Brisbane anytime soon. There is no serious plan at either council or state government level to construct one in Brisbane for the foreseeable future.

As someone who has lived both near a train station and a busway station, the busway station was hands down more convenient and frequent.

 

Quote from: #Metro on November 11, 2024, 21:33:19 PM

Quote from: SilverChasedThat's only because so much more is invested in to buses here. It is rare to find someone who actually prefers a bus over a train, and if they do it's usually because 'they're empty'.

Buses scale because they are cheap.

At $1 billion/km a rail-based metro is not coming to Brisbane anytime soon. There is no serious plan at either council or state government level to construct one in Brisbane for the foreseeable future.

As someone who has lived both near a train station and a busway station, the busway station was hands down more convenient and frequent.

 

Time to go start own Buses Back on Congested Roads forum I reckon!

^
Rail Back on Track - RBoT
Buses Back in Traffic BBiT

Quote from: #Metro on November 11, 2024, 19:46:08 PMA similar effect can be achieved by running buses, trams, ferries and normal trains frequently all day.

To run all these frequent services, you actually need decent infrastructure to run them on.

If members want to produce a serious proposal for a Sydney style rail based metro in Brisbane, then produce one complete with suggested route and stations, vote on it, and put it in front of the transport minister for comment.

I would strongly encourage members to take the earliest opportunity to do so.

And include the indicative costing and staged timeline as well.

Quote from: GazzaTo run all these frequent services, you actually need decent infrastructure to run them on.

Existing roads and rail are infrastructure too, and the infrastructure required to enable that all day frequent service is minimal.