RAIL - Back On Track Forum

I asked the question .... 'How long will the train trip from Caloundra to Brisbane take?' and was told that would be a scheduling and timetable issue, yet to be determined after CRR is operational. And yet, it is stated with certainty that whatever the time taken for the journey, there will be a 45 min. travel time saving in peak hour in 2032 than if the same journey were made by car. Go figure.

Quote from: StillwaterI asked the question .... 'How long will the train trip from Caloundra to Brisbane take?' and was told that would be a scheduling and timetable issue, yet to be determined after CRR is operational. And yet, it is stated with certainty that whatever the time taken for the journey, there will be a 45 min. travel time saving in peak hour in 2032 than if the same journey were made by car. Go figure.

Always amazes me how the most mundane information is locked right down lest someone discover how long the train actually takes.

It just like the time savings for Gold Coast Faster Rail. I reckon they are ~ 5 min or less.

You could get a rough time estimate from the line length of a similar line (say Gold Coast) and assume an average speed.

They would have estimates on hand because you cannot calculate the time savings (an input into the BCR) without this information.

^The fact that there will be (apparently) an estimated 45 min. peak hour difference between the train trip and a car journey between Caloundra and Brisbane (approx. 88km) in 2032 says a lot about how the Bruce Highway will be a car park in the peak in just eight years time.

New 'cities' are being placed all around it ... City of Aura, Beerwah East, Glenview/Palmview, Caboolture West, generating traffic back and forth to Brisbane, let alone the traffic and freight vehicles that use it to travel further north, outside SEQ.

Scroll back and you can see my time predictions.

I think the bulk of the time savings will come from the fact that you're using a train, not a bus to get to Beerwah.

But I think a few minutes Will also come about from the duplication and realignment project commencing soon, since more of the track is being straightened.

Timetabling and scheduling does come into it. They SHOULD have DSCRL trains running express Beerwah to Caboolture and gaining 4 mins from that.

Quote from: #Metro on August 14, 2024, 21:51:23 PM

Quote from: StillwaterI asked the question .... 'How long will the train trip from Caloundra to Brisbane take?' and was told that would be a scheduling and timetable issue, yet to be determined after CRR is operational. And yet, it is stated with certainty that whatever the time taken for the journey, there will be a 45 min. travel time saving in peak hour in 2032 than if the same journey were made by car. Go figure.

Always amazes me how the most mundane information is locked right down lest someone discover how long the train actually takes.

It just like the time savings for Gold Coast Faster Rail. I reckon they are ~ 5 min or less.

You could get a rough time estimate from the line length of a similar line (say Gold Coast) and assume an average speed.

They would have estimates on hand because you cannot calculate the time savings (an input into the BCR) without this information.

A lot can change over time. You can say rough ideas and plans but who knows you might now add in a Caboolture west station or all stops to Petrie before running express or congestion through the inner core ie following at slower speeds instead of green similar to the arvo tilt train.

You mention it takes 1 hour but on opening 10 years later it takes 1h8m. That then becomes a failed promise and the opposition keeps using that as a failed promise and shouldn't be trusted. There are valid reasons why but the public don't care. Compare the Gold Coast pattern to the opening running pattern. Express South Brisbane to Beenleigh. Look at the pattern post CRR. Additional stops has negated the effect of infrastructure improvements.

https://x.com/7NewsSC/status/1828711620450898338

Sunshine Coast News catches up with story:

https://www.sunshinecoastnews.com.au/2024/09/05/fear-and-shock-homeowners-prepare-to-make-way-for-rail

ABC News --> Residents shocked to learn homes now in path of Sunshine Coast Rail Line

QuoteA group of residents on Queensland's Sunshine Coast say they have been blindsided by a state government decision to redirect a major rail corridor through their properties.

About 10 property owners living in Mountain Creek recently received letters from the Transport and Main Roads (TMR) department informing them their homes and land would be needed for the Direct Sunshine Coast Rail Line.

TMR said the rail corridor had been revised to support a "modern dual-track alignment", rather than a single track as previously planned.

The letters came despite the fact there has been no funding or timeline allocated for that section of the line.

The Labor government has only committed to building the Beerwah to Caloundra section, further south, by 2032. ...

Does anyone know of or remember what the alternate alignment options for DSCL were, or did TMR just copy/paste the CAMCOS option?

Does anyone know if a feasibility study was done and where one could find such document?

Quote from: GonzoFonzie on September 07, 2024, 14:00:12 PMDoes anyone know of or remember what the alternate alignment options for DSCL were, or did TMR just copy/paste the CAMCOS option?

Does anyone know if a feasibility study was done and where one could find such document?

They copy and pasted the CAMCOS option and adjusted it for longer curves.

There were corridor study reports done in November 1997 and September 1999, which canvassed a number of alternate routes, including ones to the Airport and out to Yandina on the North Coast Line.

Quote from: Fares_Fair on September 08, 2024, 19:38:09 PM

Quote from: GonzoFonzie on September 07, 2024, 14:00:12 PMDoes anyone know of or remember what the alternate alignment options for DSCL were, or did TMR just copy/paste the CAMCOS option?

Does anyone know if a feasibility study was done and where one could find such document?

There were corridor study reports done in November 1997 and September 1999, which canvassed a number of alternate routes, including ones to the Airport and out to Yandina on the North Coast Line.

https://statements.qld.gov.au/statements/99856

"Based on this advice, the Miles Government has committed to delivering Stage 1, including building rail to Caloundra by 2032, protecting the revised alignment to Maroochydore, and further planning, environmental investigations and design. The corridor to Caloundra requires zero homes to be resumed."

"Project cost estimates have also been released for each stage, with construction to Birtinya expected to cost approximately $8.4 billion and construction to Maroochydore approximately $12 billion"

"Stage One alone involves building 19km of track. 7km of that track is elevated rail on viaducts, including 10 bridges, crossing roads, creeks and the Bruce Highway.

"Stage two is even more complex, involving construction of another 7.5km of track between Caloundra and Birtinya, including a 1.2km tunnel at Little Mountain.

"Again, 4km of that is elevated rail on viaducts including 6 bridges, due to the number of creek crossings and low-lying terrain. So we will require further advice from leading infrastructure construction companies on the approach, materials and timeframes to deliver this section of the line.

----------

How is this project feasible?

With all of the elevated rail line and bridging needed (12km with 2 new elevated stations), it this worth it just to cross over reserved wetlands/parklands. Does 'reserve' mean 'reserved for development' or 'reserved for preservation'?

How is it acceptable to build new elevated rail and stations through environmentally sensitive areas, but impossible to build new elevated rail and stations to remove level crossings from Brisbane?

Cost and benefit. There aren't that many level crossings compared to other areas, council has their own objectives and their impacts aren't major to the supporting road network eg telegraph road/robinson road vs Sunshine.

Carseldine was managed quite well with timetable rewrites as the crosses was well maintained. It's only recent redevelopment that has made the area worse from a congestion aspect especially after council widens the road corridor to allow for more traffic thru put. Skyrailing Carseldine is just a stupid idea. Grades and elevation differences (freight trains will have to throttle up even more which locals would love. You can already hear locos powering up from a few km away at night - at night you can hear the EMUs to the city slowing down for Carseldine station at Zillmere station so sound proofing the residential areas which are multi story apartments would be required), the Zillmere-Carseldine curve needs to be removed otherwise you lock into an inferior alignment, corridor width ie quadding the corridor out of the block), corridor contamination ncl shut down restrictions and much more. You have peak hour direction only buses and the 335 using the level crossing so you can't argue delays or improvements to the local bus network as a result.

More people crash into the morayfield underpass than the nearby level crossing.

Special program was conducted by ABC Regional Queensland 18th September 2024, looking at transport issues throughout Queensland.

RAIL Back On Track Northern Sunshine Coast Spokesperson Stillwater featured in an interview.

ABC Sunshine Coast Drive RBoT Member Stillwater discussing local transport issues and the benefits of the DSCRL.

Interview here --> https://backontrack.org/docs/abcsc/ABC_SC_SW_18Sep24.mp3 MP3 8.5MB

Well done Stillwater, very well thought out and considered points put.

Just some further thoughts from a Service First perspective.

Much of the discussion is centred around rail construction and timelines.

It would be good to introduce the concept of high speed buses (they would be frequent, but as this is more difficult to communicate to an audience that is mostly motorists, speed is something they'll intuitively 'get').

Like HSR, HSBs would stand in place of the rail line as an interim measure that can be delivered now or as soon as a station is built at Caloundra.

The concept of HSBs (as with HSR) can be extended to regional applications such as Brisbane-Ipswich-Toowoomba again as an interim stand in measure.

You mean like the railbuses that Stillwater, FaresFair etc have been campaigning to get rid of in favour of real train services?



TramTrain
Lapdog
#Metro
ServiceFirst

Time for a new username 
Every post in every topic for the next few months will in some way be related to how the Service First concept can be applied.
Buckle in RBoT, you're about to get hammered.

Are you against high speed, frequent connecting buses to Maroochydore/MCY Airport while the remainder of the DSCRL line is built out?

NSW put on frequent bus shuttles  every 4-5 min during the Epping-Chatswood rail to metro conversion, and will do the same for the Sydenham to Bankstown conversion. So not sure why it's Taboo now in this context.

Also, it is advisable to refer to members by their proper handle as a sign of civility.

QuoteAre you against high speed, frequent buses to Maroochydore/MCY Airport while the remainder of the DSCRL line is built out?

So there already is a HF bus route (600)
Having HF on the E-W leg is pointless because you are feeding a low frequency rail service.

High speed is stretching it, it still has to go through the Caloundra Roundabout.
Once it is out of Caloundra, its more or less running as fast as it can, since the speed limit on that road is 100, and it makes a roadside stop at Glenview.

So I feel here (and in a lot of situations) there's not actually a whole lot that can be done to suddenly stimulate patronage, you actually have to invest the money in infrastructure to overcome the inherent limitations of a bus on a road.

QuoteAlso, it is advisable to refer to members by their proper handle as a sign of civility.

It's just a rebranding of the same old service.
Rebranding is a waste of money most of the time IMO.

Quote from: Gazza on September 19, 2024, 10:02:48 AMYou mean like the railbuses that Stillwater, FaresFair etc have been campaigning to get rid of in favour of real train services?



TramTrain
Lapdog
#Metro
ServiceFirst

Time for a new username 
Every post in every topic for the next few months will in some way be related to how the Service First concept can be applied.
Buckle in RBoT, you're about to get hammered.

Now now let's see the crb and business case first before we go about changing usernames.

But its just a concept™ , it  is simultaneously a better, more practical idea than your or mine, but at the same time not bound by any reasonable feedback.

This writes itself.

Also my take on the Caloundra roundabout.

So its congested because every bugger is driving to Brisbane.

But if people are NOT driving to Bribane, at worst, it stays as bad as it is because they go through the roundabout, but instead are going into the park n ride or kiss n ride.

At best, it marginally improves because for passengers within 5-10km radius of Caloundra station, it becomes viable to use a feeder, so every bus coming into the station saves like 40 cars.

@stillwater, @faresfair thoughts?

The media and public are interested in interim solutions that can cover mobility needs in the short and medium term while rail is built.

Similar to how 535 rocket bus was put on for Springfield line construction (RBOT initiative) and how 777 bus fills in for GCLRT while it's being built or to GC Airport.

It would be good to have you on board with the concept.

QuotePublic transport advocate Robert Dow, from Rail Back on Track, welcomed the funding but called for interim services to Maroochydore once stage one was complete.

"If the Queensland government cannot deliver a train service to Maroochydore soon, the question should naturally turn to what can it deliver in the interim while residents wait for trains to reach Maroochydore?" he said.

"We think the answer is a limited stop express bus service that acts in place of the railway, until the railway is fully built out.

"Running every 15 minutes all day, this service would be limited to only stopping at future DSCRL train station locations, guaranteeing both access and high-speed travel during the planning and construction phases of the project."

A Transport and Main Roads spokesman said a detailed business case was under way for an "integrated urban public transport solution" along the coastal corridor between Caloundra and Maroochydore.

Brisbanetimes --> Miles rails against LNP's 'car park' criticism of Sunshine Coast link $

https://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/national/queensland/miles-rails-against-lnp-s-car-park-criticism-of-sunshine-coast-link-20240513-p5jd3c.html

Yeah I don't mind a limited stops bus but that's not high speed is it?

QuoteIt would be good to have you on board with the concept.

Will you get on board with other members suggestions for infrastructure, or is it a one way street?

Quote from: GazzaWill you get on board with other members suggestions for infrastructure, or is it a one way street?

Yes and No.

I've been clear about the fundamental approach and framework for what might attract support and what might not.

I note that it is a different approach to yours and starts from a different starting point. And that is OK.

QuoteYes and No

Politicians answer 

I mean I think it is a one way street. I'm all for running more services, we always talk about running HF and filling in the coverage gaps on the HF bus network, and running more crosstown routes. Every RBOT member supports that except V9 (Who says it should be 20 min frequency)

So Im being reasonable and balanced by supporting those extra services, but also realizing that all the places in Aus which got strong patronage growth, be it the Mandurah line, Sydney Metro, GC LRT, you name it, all did it by spending billions on infrastructure in the face of people who said it was a waste of money at the time.

Well, I acknowledge that you don't have to like my answer. It isn't black and white, the same as you wouldn't give blanket support to everything I would propose.

My position aligns with this forums ethos on supporting proposals with merit, and not supporting those that don't.

That, and it's entirely reasonable to consider improved bus connections as part of DSCRL introduction / transition.

So when you post about the need to improve frequency on bus and rail, everyone agrees, gives you the opportunity, and talks about ways to do this, but they dont feel the need to derail the thread and start talking about various ideas for new rail lines or tunnels, or that the Bulimba glider should in fact be a tram or whatever, etc etc in those threads.

But on the other hand when people talk about infrastructure on here, why do you feel the need to also try and make it about service improvements already brought up in other threads you made?

Won't somebody please think of the concepts and business cases.

Well, we have have been told the project will be staged. Hence:

Quote from: BrisbaneTimes"If the Queensland government cannot deliver a train service to Maroochydore soon, the question should naturally turn to what can it deliver in the interim while residents wait for trains to reach Maroochydore?" he said.

When the rail line finally reaches Maroochydore, the rapid bus link will cease to exist, demonstrating a direct link and dependency between the project and the interim bus service.

It is little different to how a route 535 Springfield was advocated by us while the section Richlands to Springfield was built out.

Secondly, you will note this topic is in the Open Forum section and not the Infrastructure section.

The DSCRL is a Project not just a piece of infrastructure, hence how can we provide service while the staged infrastructure build out happens is relevant to discuss IMO.

ABC News --> Qld Opposition says incomplete Sunshine Coast rail line would be 'embarrassment' at 2032 Olympics

QuoteIn short:

Early work has begun on a direct rail line from Brisbane to the Sunshine Coast, planned for over 30 years.

However the joint state and federally funded stage one will only reach Caloundra by 2032.

What's next?

The state opposition has promised a 100-day review to work out how to build the Sunshine Coast heavy rail line to Maroochydore by 2032, despite the government saying that is impossible. ...

https://x.com/ozbob13/status/1836786128504148301

Have you heard of Gagalba? .... you soon will. Another 6000 homes (eventually) on the alignment of the DSCL.
https://www.sunshinecoastnews.com.au/2024/09/24/green-light-for-270m-lakes-precinct-and-900-homes/

Sunshine Coast News --> Rail project worth $12 billion looms as key theme for Coast at state election

QuoteThe Opposition has doubled down on its promise to deliver a rail line to the heart of the Sunshine Coast by the 2032 Games, but the state government says that's impossible and is committed to building it in stages.

The proposed 37.8km dual track Direct Sunshine Coast Rail Line could go from Beerwah, through Caloundra and Kawana to Maroochydore.

It could cut travel time between the Sunshine Coast and Brisbane and it could take the strain off local roads amid a booming population.

The project looms as a key topic for Sunshine Coast voters ahead of the state election on October 26.

A detailed business case summary, released in January, showed it would cost $12 billion and there were construction complexities, prompting the state government to focus on building the line to Caloundra first.

But the LNP has emphasised that it will deliver the line "all the way to Maroochydore by 2032 if elected this month". ...

ABC Sunshine Coast Local News 11th October 2024

News item on the DSCRL

Here > https://backontrack.org/docs/abcsc/abc_sc_news_11oct24.mp3 MP3 0.8MB

I wonder if the LNP are considering building the line with fewer stations to speed up construction times but still keep their promise of getting to Maroochydore by 2032.

Stations are the easy part. You can do many things to speed up construction/lower costs but in the process you set the network back dramatically in terms of operating costs, network flexibility and network operations. These are all things no one wants to dive into as it also sets themselves up for existing network shortcomings and design eg QTMP. Easier to be vague then getting called out on specifics.

Couple of comments, please bookmark this post.

1. Have the LNP taken up the usual opportunity for a briefing from the various state agencies, in this case DTMR on not only the DSCRL but other rail projects? The briefings are available to Opposition players during the caretaker period. According to the last report I saw recently they have not.  Therefore they are not really across the problems with the project particularly between Caloundra and Maroochydore. If they were I think they would be lot more cautious about 'promising ' about getting to Maroochydore by 2032, Birtinya maybe.

2. Other major rail related projects are already advanced and out for delivery eg. K2B(Logan Gold Coast Faster Rail), and B2N Stage One (Beerburrum to Beerwah), as well as QTMP. And CRR and ETCS rollout proceeds. Will there be the funding for full completion of DSCRL? Unlikely, and the LNP will probably say they didn't know the financial situation if they are elected and truncate DSCRL IMHO. Also note the LNP is saying that the project will need 50% Federal Funding to reach Maroochydore, there is no guarantee of that (funding).

3. Not withstanding the preceding comment, I am of the view that Birtinya is achievable by 2032, and very highly desirable.  FF's comments in the news item above are spot on IMHO.

https://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/state-election/candidates/steven-miles-forgets-kawana-candidate-jarrod-bleijie-vague-on-heavy-rail-promise/news-story/0bbec1640f19e7a0ff2d4e4e7e5d2a3f

Quote... During the announcement, the LNP's deputy leader was questioned on the LNP's key election promise to deliver heavy rail into Maroochydore.

Mr Bleijie was repeatedly asked about the "industry experts" who had assured the LNP the Direct Sunshine Coast Rail Line could be delivered to Maroochydore in time for 2032 Olympic and Paralympic Games, as per his prior comments on Wednesday.

"Everybody knows this is achievable," Mr Bleijie said.

When pressed on exactly who the LNP had spoken to, Mr Bleijie responded "lots of people, everybody, lots of industry". ...

 

Who would have thought someone being vague again haha.

I guess the DSCRL will meet the busway in Birtinya and that's all for 2032.